Opinion Su-57 MMRCA choice over Rafale ????

[Cruise missile]

Well we r doing it with rafale arent we
Why not switch it with better deal

Additional rafale will be cheaper since infrastructure and specific upgrades already exists.

 

[WARREN SS]

Additional rafale will be cheaper since infrastructure and specific upgrades already exists.

not that we should get those 36 and add those numbers to 72

I am talking MMRCA deal

MMRCA deal is Pegged at 15 billion $
If it's gone through let's say some were 2023 or 2024

Why not SU-57 over any 4. 5 th generation fighters
114 0f these platform with Indian touch like mki can be statergical booster.

Russians just bought 76 of these at 7-8 billion $

 

[Cruise missile]

not that we should get those 36 and add those numbers to 72

I am talking MMRCA deal

MMRCA deal is Pegged at 15 billion $
If it's gone through let's say some were 2023 or 2024

Why not SU-57 over any 4. 5 th generation fighters
114 0f these platform with Indian touch like mki can be statergical booster.

Russians just bought 76 of these at 7-8 billion $

MMRCA is not going to happen.

 

[WARREN SS]

MMRCA is not going to happen.

Well IAF is adment on it. And organization will fight for it.

Navy will have to say bye bye to third aircraft carrier. I assure you that for this decade.

ITS navy vs iaf for funding
After Balakot iaf has edge in mod circles

Since

IAF chief contradicts CDS Rawat, says plan is to buy 114 foreign fighters besides LCA Tejas

CDS Gen. Bipin Rawat had said IAF was planning to buy the indigenous LCA Tejas instead of 114 ‘Make in India’ foreign jets.

www.google.com

 

[Suryavanshi]

Well we r doing it with rafale arent we
Why not switch it with better deal

Su 57 is hardly serving it's purpose and Rafle is good at what it is meant to do. It's stealth is lacklustre, sub components nowhere near western counterpart's. We don't get full TOT of any component and most likely meant to be su 30 redux. Russians want to milk us for another 20 30 years while haulting indigenous project.
U want to delay the procurement by changing the Equipment yet again, it will take another 5 years till induction.
During the time we signed the Rafale deal we had already dropped Su 57 wholeheartedly.
We have our own project now no need to look anywhere else

 

[Suryavanshi]

I dont see the point of buying Su 57 right now unless Russians give us the full unconditional TOT and make us part of the supply chain.
MMRCA is more geared towards non stealth fighter something that isn't going obsolete any time soon, why try to get stealth in it that serves a completely different purpose?
We have our own AMCA project now and its first prototype is supposed to roll out anywhere between 2024 to 2027 and Geared towards induction by AF between 2030 to 2032 If everything goes as planned. With the PPP model involved and in light of better performance of HAL in consecutive years we should have more confidence in the project. Even if we ditch Rafale and go for Su 57 it will take a good 5 years for Supply to begin about the same timeline as AMCA. While AMCA Mk 1 might not match Su 57 but AMCA MK 2 will. Going by how things are going we will have first prototype of MK 2 might start flying by the time MK 1 starts getting inducted that is 2030 to 2035. We will be five yeas behind the Su 57 but the on the bright side we will have a booming aero sector and full control of tech.

All this thing I have wrote above is bright optimism but once the first prototype drops I won't entertain the idea of Su 57.

 

[Suryavanshi]

Future of IAF

300+ Su 30 that maybe upgraded with Indian or Russian tech into Super Sukhoi. I would prefer we upgrade it ourselves and it is entirely possible except for the engine maybe. With Unmanned wingman it will serve the purpose of Networked Smart warfare and also as a standoff fighter.

80+ Mig 29 that will sport all sorts of Indian Avionics and Weapons in the future.

100+ Tejas MK1/Mk1a that will replace all Mig 21s.

50+ Darin Jaguar whatever the fuck its meant to do i.e., ground troop support, coast protection etc. better phase them out if they are too much of a money sinkhole.

We have 36 Rafale planned but I wish we sign a deal and manufacture another 100 locally.

 

[Suryavanshi]

Our biggest priority right now should be too bring Turbofan infra here.
We must try to be independent in all engine tech by 2035 be it Naval Ship engine, tanks, Armor, fighter Jet, Helis, Drones etc.
Next priority should be Civilian Aerospace manufacturing capability we already have the base as Saras Mk 2.

 

[WARREN SS]

Su 57 is hardly serving it's purpose and Rafle is good at what it is meant to do. It's stealth is lacklustre, sub components nowhere near western counterpart's. We don't get full TOT of any component and most likely meant to be su 30 redux.
During the time we signed the Rafale deal we had already dropped Su 57 wholeheartedly.
We have our own project now no need to look anywhere else

Point taken now read factual counter arguments

1. of course its lack against F-35 or f-22.But Stealthy than Rafale 0.005-0.5 And Its AESA Radar is power full has tracking objects at 500 km with 360 degree coverage
2. "Russians want to milk us for another 20 30 years while haulting indigenous project".
   U want to delay the procurement by changing the Equipment yet again, it will take another 5 years till induction.(Well isn't We just Purchased S-400 And Lease Nuclear submarine for 10 years without zero tot assurance )
3. How induction of MKI impacted LCA Please Post Logical arguments It our own western lobbyist that bogged down LCA. Russians Lack money and patience of lobbying
4. My arguments Is on negotiation fresh deal and include Su-57 in current MMRCA With f-18 and others if Americans offer f-35 then you can say its bad
5. I don't know how it Will impact AMCA or MWF all points just conjecture Mod already released Separate budget for LCA and MWF funding.

 

[WARREN SS]

We have 36 Rafale planned but I wish we sign a deal and manufacture another 100 locally.

How It provide Better in terms of technology than Su-57 Please counter
Dassault rejected HAL

sorry to say but they Will re negotiate the MMRCA with new Rafale f4 tranche


Please give technical arguments to counter what Special we getting in terms technology from rafale ??

 

[WARREN SS]

I dont see the point of buying Su 57 right now unless Russians give us the full unconditional TOT and make us part of the supply chain.
MMRCA is more geared towards non stealth fighter something that isn't going obsolete any time soon, why try to get stealth in it that serves a completely different purpose?

So Getting 5 th gen over 4.5 gen Is some how bad idea suddenly

Why Should it be non stealthy When So called defense firms Selling there products "advanced 5th gen features"

whole MMRCA seems to me Stupidity
Why need another Medium class aircraft when we already has 270 + MKI
which can easily converted to Multirole by Next MLU

Also Why We are building MWF then isn't it wastage of Resources ???

 

[Suryavanshi]

How It provide Better in terms of technology than Su-57 Please counter
Dassault rejected HAL

Sir there is no significant advantage of buying Su 57.
Su 57 and Rafale are like tomatoes and apple they both serve a different purpose. Rafale is a 4.5+ gen fighter and Su 57 is stealth I have already said that the MMRCA deal does not extensively demand for a stealth platform. If u just want Su 57 as an alternative to AMCA than its a whole different argument entirely.
Please clarify

Dassault Rejected HAL but there are other options and if not we will directly buy from them.

sorry to say but they Will re negotiate the MMRCA with new Rafale f4 tranche

I will be happy to have more Rafale through MMRCA

 

[WARREN SS]

We have our own AMCA project now and its first prototype is supposed to roll out anywhere between 2024 to 2027 and Geared towards induction by AF between 2030 to 2032 If everything goes as planned. With the PPP model involved and in light of better performance of HAL in consecutive years we should have more confidence in the project.

AMCA is separate Project it has separate funding

If MMRCA will not impact its induction how Will su-57 ???

 

[WARREN SS]

Sir there is no significant advantage of buying Su 57.
Su 57 and Rafale are like tomatoes and apple they both serve a different purpose. Rafale is a 4.5+ gen fighter and Su 57 is stealth I have already said that the MMRCA deal does not extensively demand for a stealth platform. If u just want Su 57 as an alternative to AMCA than its a whole different argument entirely.
Please clarify

Dassault Rejected HAL but there are other options and if not we will directly buy from them.

I am Not Demanding Su-57 i am saying switching Needs for Rafale as it doesn't add anything New
accept a BVR platform Which is being in development by our own R&D firms

How getting Stealth over 4.5 gen is Bad idea in terms of future strategic thinking

MMRCA is just "Name of procurement plan" by Mod which is pegged at 15 billion $

It can be changed And money Used for Inducting New Platform

AMCA is Medium weight Platform and it has Separate funding And procurement Plan

we already developing our on MMRCA in MWF

I will be happy to have more Rafale through MMRCA

My opinion Differs For Me adding another futuristic 5th generation aircraft to our inventory which has scope future upgrade after spending 15 billion $ Will better idea in in terms of strategic planning

My thought is same With F-35.If its offered to us in future over f-18's in MMRCA

Well its just Different opinions

 

[Illusive]

It going to be Tejas and its variant, AMCA and Rafale. Su30 might get ordered if SU 30 upgrades are finalized but thats about it.

Navy might look for foreign maal but the era of importing fighter for India is nearing it end. Its very expensive thing and in an era where cheap drones can make it easier ( a scary future indeed) for waging short skirmishes, the era of manned jets for fighters will come to an end within 2 decades.

 

[Suryavanshi]

So Getting 5 th gen over 4.5 gen Is some how bad idea suddenly

Why do we need another stealth Aircraft when AMCA is already there,

whole MMRCA seems to me Stupidity
Why need another Medium class aircraft when we already has 270 + MKI
which can easily converted to Multirole by Next MLU

Because we have a depleting Squadron strength and a immediate stop gap measure was needed. When the Rafale deal was first tabled there was a agreement on Kaveri, local production and 30% reinvestment.
There were to many pros in the deal.
And it is a fact that Rafales are significantly better than Su 30. We have the weapons package along with Rafale that is Meteor Missile the best BVRAAM right now and further agreement in helping them to integrate with Indian Aircrafts.

Also Why We are building MWF then isn't it wastage of Resources ???

We have over 150 aircraft retiring by 2030. Realistically we should be retiring 300 to catch up with modern air force.

AMCA is separate Project it has separate funding

If MMRCA will not impact its induction how Will su-57 ???

Why buy another stealth platform when MMRCA is not about stealth

 

[WARREN SS]

hy do we need another stealth Aircraft when AMCA is already there,

why Americans have f-22 And f-35 ???

Because we have a depleting Squadron strength and a immediate stop gap measure was needed. When the Rafale deal was first tabled there was a agreement on Kaveri, local production and 30% reinvestment.
There were to many pros in the deal.
And it is a fact that Rafales are significantly better than Su 30. We have the weapons package along with Rafale that is Meteor Missile the best BVRAAM right now and further agreement in helping them to integrate with Indian Aircrafts.

Bro think calmly this technology can be added in MKI by simple MLU upgrade and increasing its numberts to 350+ by spending less monetary resources
It failure of our own strategic planning that our Primary aircraft is decade backward in terms of technology against its peers

As for Meteor we are developing Our own SDFR And Astra mk2
and Russians Too surfaced there K-77M with AESA seeker

 

[Suryavanshi]

I am Not Demanding Su-57 i am saying switching Needs for Rafale as it doesn't add anything New
accept a BVR platform Which is being in development by our own R&D firms

Rafale is the last foreign fighter jet we are buying, say goodbye to import after this.
Buying Rafale has the following pros.
-We get all Subsystem like Meteor, Mica, Hammer.
-They have promised to integrate French weapons in all Non Russian platform.
-They will agree to local production if we provide them the right partner.
-We already have infra for Rafale now.
-Follow up orders will cost way less
-30% reinvestment in India
-Safran Kaveri Deal still hanging if orders are placed
-France has been way more Trustworthy than Russians recently.

Pros of Su 57
-We get a lackluster 5 gen plane that we can ourselves make 5 years behind.
-We get some TOT for sub system that are significantly behind West

How getting Stealth over 4.5 gen is Bad idea in terms of future strategic thinking

4.5+ will Rule the sky uptil 2050 and we already have smart warfare system upcoming for these 4.5+ gen.

MMRCA is just "Name of procurement plan" by Mod which is pegged at 15 billion $

It can be changed And money Used for Inducting New Platform

You want to turn the whole air force into Kichadi?

AMCA is Medium weight Platform and it has Separate funding And procurement Plan

we already developing our on MMRCA in MWF

Why buy a 5th gen we already have AMCA and there is no particular demand of Su 57 right now?
Why buy KIA when u have already made preparation for Tata Nexon

why Americans have f-22 And f-35 ???

-They have 1 trillion budget
-F35 is the next obvious step after f22 which is 20 years old project.
-F35 is also meant for export.
-F35 is a bomb truck.

U want to emulate America than have the MIC of America. They buy their own stuff we choke on foreign maal.

Bro think calmly this technology can be added in MKI by simple MLU upgrade by spending less monetary resources
It failure of our own strategic planning that our Primary aircraft is decade backward in terms of technology against it peers

As for Meteor we are developing Our own SDFR And Astra mk2
and Russians Too surfaced there K-77M with AESA seeker

We are developing the following
-AESA
-MAWS
-Laser pod
-180 km + BVRAAM
- Electronic Warfare Suit
- HUD

We are working on everything needed to upgrade su 30 on our own. All that is left is an engine that we can buy from Russians rather than buying a whole New system for some cheap upgrades that can be done through Super Sukhoi Program in way less money.

 

[Suryavanshi]

We will meet 80 to 90% of all our Military demand indigenously whether anyone likes it or not.

 

[WARREN SS]

Rafale is the last foreign fighter jet we are buying, say goodbye to import after this.
Buying Rafale has the following pros.
-We get all Subsystem like Meteor, Mica, Hammer.
-They have promised to integrate French weapons in all Non Russian platform.
-They will agree to local production if we provide them the right partner.
-We already have infra for Rafale now.
-Follow up orders will cost way less
-30% reinvestment in India
-Safran Kaveri Deal still hanging if orders are placed
-France has been way more Trustworthy than Russians recently.

Pros of Su 57
-We get a lackluster 5 gen plane that we can ourselves make 5 years behind.
-We get some TOT for sub system that are significantly behind West

French offering us nothing better in terms weapon package what we don't have it in MKI
or we are not developing go

BrahMos-A

The BrahMos-A is a modified air-launched variant of the missile which will arm the Sukhoi PAK-FA of the Indian air force as a standoff weapon. To reduce the missile’s weight to 2.55 tons, many modifications were made like using a smaller booster, adding fins for airborne stability after launch, and relocating the connector. It can be released from the height of 500 to 14,000 meters (1,640 to 46,000 ft). After release, the missile free falls for 100–150 meters, then goes into a cruise phase at 14,000 meters and finally the terminal phase at 15 meters.

BrahMos-NG

BrahMos-NG (Next Generation) is a mini version based on the existing BrahMos, will have same 290 km range and mach 3.5 speed but it will weigh around 1.5 tons, 5 meters in length and 50 cm in diameter, making BrahMos-NG 50 percent lighter and three meters shorter than its predecessor. The system is expected to be inducted in the year 2017. BrahMos-NG will have lesser RCS (radar cross section) compared to its predecessor, making it harder for air defense systems to locate and engage the target. BrahMos-NG will have Land, Air, ship-borne and Submarine tube-launched variants. First test flight is expected to take place in 2017–18. Initially Brahmos-NG was called as Brahmos-M.

BrahMos-II

BrahMos-II is a hypersonic cruise missile currently under development and is estimated to have a range of 290 km. Like the BrahMos, the range of BrahMos II has also been limited to 290 km to comply with the MTCR. With a speed of Mach 7, it will have double the speed of the current BrahMos missile, and it will be the fastest hypersonic missile in the world. Development could take 7–8 years to complete.

7 Kh-59MK2

The Kh-59MK2 cruise missile bears little external resemblance to the earlier Kh-59 (AS-18 Kazoo), which is a conventional glide bomb with an externally mounted Saturn 36MT turbofan engine, but uses the same powerplant, warhead and guidance system. It has a redesigned airframe to reduce its radar signature and fit in the Sukhoi T-50’s weapon bays. The 1,700-lb. weapon has a design range of up to 160 nm.

The Kh-59MK2 features a stealth-contoured nose with short, swept horizontal chines, which avoids a radar cross-section (RCS) spike from a rounded nose but takes up less space in the length-limited (4.2-meter-long) T-50 bays than a pointed or wedge nose. Flat sides result in strong RCS spikes at 90-deg. to the missile’s axis, but if the weapon is at low altitude these are not exploitable by an airborne radar, because a radar at that position cannot detect any Doppler signal from the missile. The flush inlet is located under the body.

A third, modified weapon was the Kh-58UShKE-IIR (imaging infrared). The basic Kh-58UShKE, seen at previous MAKS shows, is a modernized, shortened, folding-wing version of the veteran Mach 4 Kh-58 (AS-11 Kilter). The new model adds two IIR sensors under the forebody, allowing the weapon to engage emitters that have been shut down.

The new weapons underscore the fact that the T-50 cannot be regarded as an analog to the Lockheed Martin F-22. It is designed for both air-to-air and air-to-surface missions, with the ability to carry four large weapons internally (versus two 1,000-lb. bombs on the F-22) as well as having provision for Kh-31 anti-radar missiles under the wings.

Anti-Ship Missile.

KH 35

Kh-35UE (AS-20 “Kayak”) anti-ship missile

Kh-35UE (AS-20 “Kayak”) anti-ship missile (wings extended)

The Zvezda Kh-35U (‘Star’, Russian: Х-35У, AS-20 ‘Kayak’) is the jet-launched version of a Russian subsonic anti-ship missile. The same missile can also be launched from helicopters, surface ships and coastal defence batteries with the help of a rocket booster, in which case it is known as Uran (‘Uranus’, SS-N-25 ‘Switchblade’, GRAU 3M24 ) or Bal (‘Ball’, SSC-6 ‘Sennight’, GRAU 3K60). It is also nicknamed “Harpoonski”, because it looks like and functions very similar to the American Harpoon Anti-Ship missile. It is designed to attack vessels up to 5000 tonnes.

The Kh-35 missile is a subsonic weapon featuring a normal aerodynamic configuration with cruciform wings and fins and a semisubmerged air duct intake. The propulsion unit is a turbofan engine. The missile is guided to its target at the final leg of the trajectory by commands fed from the active radar homing head and the radio altimeter.

Target designation data can be introduced into the missile from the launch aircraft or ship or external sources. Flight mission data is inserted into the missile control system after input of target coordinates. An inertial system controls the missile in flight, stabilizes it at an assigned altitude and brings it to a target location area. At a certain target range, the homing head is switched on to search for, lock on and track the target. The inertial control system then turns the missile toward the target and changes its flight altitude to an extremely low one. At this altitude, the missile continues the process of homing by the data fed from the homing head and the inertial control system until a hit is obtained.

The Kh-35 anti-ship missile can be employed in fair and adverse weather conditions at sea states up to 5-6, by day and night, under enemy fire and electronic countermeasures.

The Kh-35’s aerodynamic configuration is optimized for high subsonic-speed sea-skimming flight to ensure stealthy characteristics of the missile. The missile has low signatures thanks to its small dimensions, sea-skimming capability and a special guidance algorithm ensuring highly secure operational modes of the active radar seeker.

Its ARGS-35E active radar seeker operates in both single-and-multiple missile launch modes, acquiring and locking on targets at a maximum range of up to 20 km. A new radar seeker, Gran-KE have been developed by SPE Radar MMS and will be replacing the existing ARGS-35E X band seeker.

Weapon Configurations Of PAK-FA