New Chinese visa policy irks India

Oracle

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In 1950 when PLA was liberating Tibet, Nehru even made a plan of sending Indian troops to Tibet.
You seem stoned. Are you on drugs?
Liberate Tibet from who? Tibetans themselves? This is all high moral talk & low moral walk.
 
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nimo_cn

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You seem stoned. Are you on drugs?
Liberate Tibet from who? Tibetans themselves? This is all high moral talk & low moral walk.
We were liberating them from that slave owner who is still being worshiped by you regardless of the horrible thing he has done.

High moral talk and low moral walk? Tha is what you are best at.
On the one hand, you preach us on humanity day by day; on the other hand when China was demolishing the inhuman slavery system in Tibet, you planned to stop it.

Even after the slavery system in Tibet has perished, you are still accommodating those slave owners in your country. For what? For the promotion of slavery in the future?
 

nimo_cn

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Living in the present? That's rich coming from the citizen of a country which is claiming some atolls long administered by the Japanese under an assumed notion that perhaps in the past one ruler of the Qing dynasty pissed on the rocks at Okinawa or Senkaku, which makes them "Chinese".

Well so the west is justified if they lay claim to the international quarter in Shangai aren't they or perhaps Japanese can stake their claim for the return of Manchukuo..
Well, by that logic, British are justified to rule India again.
 

Mustang

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Well, by that logic, British are justified to rule India again.
Hello Nimo,

Have been watching this discussion but only decided to join now. That is exactly the logic which everyone is trying to convey. By this same logic mongolia, all the territories north of great wall of china should go to mongolia. Pakistan to become part of india or atleast british india. In other words, history cannot be used as a means to claim territory. You should make you communist government understand this.
 

Oracle

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We were liberating them from that slave owner who is still being worshiped by you regardless of the horrible thing he has done.

High moral talk and low moral walk? Tha is what you are best at.
On the one hand, you preach us on humanity day by day; on the other hand when China was demolishing the inhuman slavery system in Tibet, you planned to stop it.

Even after the slavery system in Tibet has perished, you are still accommodating those slave owners in your country. For what? For the promotion of slavery in the future?
China had no right to interfere in the matters of a sovereign state(Tibet). You are claiming to be the champions of freedom, while everybody knows what it is like in China. It was/is China's imperialistic/expansionist mindset (hunger for land) that drives China's ill-minded policies. Since, media is strictly controlled in China & ordinary Chinese don't even enjoy basic freedom, should the US overthrow your Communist Government?

Only China thinks that the Tibetan Govt. in exile are slave masters, while the entire world thinks the opposite including your master, the US.

GoI should adopt an eye-for-eye policy when it deals with rouge states like China and Pakistan. Give stapled visas to people coming into India from the Tibetan region & Aksai Chin(if people live there). GoI should also support & accommodate Tibetans financially, and provide then visas with indefinite leave to remain in India till, Tibet is freed.
 

nimo_cn

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If you lived in the present, could you justify the annexation of Tibet?

You required some hoary events of history and concocted it to 'justify' your imperialist designs!

But then, you all are worshippers of double talk. You quote history when it suits you and then you trash it, when it is inconvenient!

Are you suggesting that the historical events etched out by your Chairman Mao and the Glorious Communist Party are totally bogus and should be trashed?

Must you be so ungrateful to Chairman Mao, no matter what his quirks were which chalked the Chinese modern history, and claim that he did nothing worthwhile since the present is totally an antithesis of his dream and policies?

I am sure the Chinese Communist party would be delighted to learn that you feel that the Chinese history chalked by the CCP is a whole lot of manure!

if there is a Chinese saying - "live in the present", there is also an English saying that those who forsake history are 'frogs in the well'.
Well, let us go back the original posts where we started, let us make it clear under what context did i quote that Chinese saying, because i am getting sick of you people stretching my words without reference to the certain circumstances.

This is the post by myfair to which I was replying by bringing up the starvation in India. He said something like we should stop preaching Indians.
First you let go of people in Turkestan and Tibet and Inner Mongolia before preaching others.

please feel free to reply to this and earn your 5 Maos
My reply is this one, in which I was contending Indians sometimes are more fond of preaching others and I used starvation as an example.

I think it is Indian who always like preaching others.

Indians preach Chinese on government administration, while Indian government is more corrupt than Chinese one.
Indians preach Chinese on giving good life to its citizens, while many Indian people are still starving.
Indians preach Chinese on education, while none of Indian colleges made top 100, China has 6 universities in the top 100.
Indians preach Chinese on human right, while Indian army treats people in Kashmir so brutally.
Indians preach Chinese on peace, while Indians have fought no less wars than China.
Indians preach Chinese on non-proliferation, while India even refuses to sign NPT.
...

When we say no to these ridiculous preachings, and try to remind you of your own problems, you accuse us of preaching. You must forget it is you who start all these sh!t in the first place.
If I was an Indian and I disagreed some point in that post, say the starvation part, I would refute the post by proving India had less starvation than China or China had more starvation than India at present.

Well, some Indian member certainly does not follow suit, let us see how Ray reply to this. He didn't get back to me directly by quoting my post, but the content in his post indicates he was unhappy with the starvation part in my post.

One is not too aware of the internal situation in China and so one cannot really know the situation about starvation and malnutrition out there.

It maybe recalled that China is so secretive that even the SARS was not reported and the UN agencies debarred!

So what is there happening is a total black out.

However, regarding STARVATION IN CHINA, this should suffice:

The Great Leap Forward Period
in China, 1958-1960
So what the purpose does this post serve? I was wondering at first, it certainly can't prove India is better than China regarding starvation. Then it occurred to me he may be trying to neutralize the frustration caused by India's failure in solving the poverty by bringing up famine happened in China over 40 years ago. That is why I quoted that Chinese saying "live in the present"ï¼Œmerely to remind him that dwelling on the past, especially China's past, does no good to India.
This is my post
LOL, that is what you always do, quote what happened in China almost 40 years ago to comfort your fellows and yourself.

How about the modern China, China in 2010?

There is a saying in China, "活在当下", which loosely translates into "live in the present", meaning people should care more about what is going on now, do not dwell on the past or fantasise about the future too much. That is our philosophy.

As per my observation, what you are good at, as well as some of your fellows, is "live in the past or live in the future".
Good for you!
Now I think people can get a full picture of this discussion, anyone who can point out where I mentioned something like forgetting about history? Or am i more like suggesting people should focus more on the present?

Don't dwell on the past=forget about the past?

And where does that territorial claim thing come from? What does it have to do with"live in the present"?
Most territorial claims are based on the historical ground, it is just a common tactic adopted by everyone.

The following part is off topic.
I quoted that saying for a reason, because Ray has developed a bad habit of citing old Chinese history rather than resorting to the present China to prove his odd theory which he believes can suit the present China. That is hilarious, isn't it?

Ray's obsession with the old China is quite inexplicable. History, though is always used as a mirror, can't tell the full picture of the present. Not to mention that Ray's historical knowledge about China is very partial, which further reduces the creditability of his theory.

As per my observation, I speculate there are two reasons behind Ray's obsession with the old China.

First, Ray may be trying to prove the original sin in China's rising which he believes is rooted in the whole Chinese civilization, it makes denying the positive sides of China's rising more convenient. That is probably why we have witnessed Ray brought up the ancient China's territorial expansion again and again and used it as a proof of the existence of imperialism in the present China. In fact, territorial expansion existed in almost every country in the old days before modern international laws were established. But that can't stop him from singling China out and making China an exception.

Second, Ray may be unable to face the present China. From dealing with the old China, he can gain more confidence, especially when he was studying the history of China being ruled by non-Hans. That is probably why we can hear the ridiculous claim that Manchu are not Chinese, because that fits well for his mental masturbation that China had been ravaged by foreigners as India had by British. Minority ruled India before, but no one called them non-Indian. Well I have expressed this idea before, so I am stopping here.

Nice talking to you guys.
 

SHASH2K2

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Crap, India has broken the rules of the game in the first place by accommodating that monk. There is a bottom line when two countries are dealing with each other, which is never interfering with other's internal affairs, and India has crossed that line for 60 years. So you need stop glotifying India's decency and moralizing, there isn't any decency in poking your nose into other's businesses.
Just to let you know that Monk that you are referring to is for peaceful solution of the tibet issue . That to for autonomy within chinese Constitution. He is not for carving a tibet out of China. More over he is under political asylum and is not into any violent uprising. Whatever problem that you find in tibet is due to oppressive policies of Chinese government and you majority Hans.

Since India has so many ways to screw China, why i have saw some many people whining and complaining here?

One of my fellows have pointed out it is just a tit-for-tat move for your duplicity over Tibet and Lama. This is a game everyone is playing, and you started it. Now China is adotping the same trick you have adopted for 60 years, and you ranted like a bunch of spoiled kids?

You want to transfer your mighty nuke and missile technology to Vietnam, Burma, Japan, South Korea, or whatever you want to? Just do it, personally i won't complain. I just hope when China is doing another tit-for-tat move for that, i don't have to bear this noise again.

This is the manhood i was refering to.
I already told you that we don't hit under the belt but once threshold of our patience is over we will definitely do something that will rattle you. Moreover who else you will supply nukes and missiles now ? Your hegemony and dominance has already taken a hit in Asia . I am sure you are aware of how isolated you were at Hanoi. Entire Asia is against you or not with you. Rather than ranting try to apply some brain abut whats happening and why .
 

Ray

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Well, let us go back the original posts where we started, let us make it clear under what context did i quote that Chinese saying, because i am getting sick of you people stretching my words without reference to the certain circumstances.

This is the post by myfair to which I was replying by bringing up the starvation in India. He said something like we should stop preaching Indians.


My reply is this one, in which I was contending Indians sometimes are more fond of preaching others and I used starvation as an example.



If I was an Indian and I disagreed some point in that post, say the starvation part, I would refute the post by proving India had less starvation than China or China had more starvation than India at present.

Well, some Indian member certainly does not follow suit, let us see how Ray reply to this. He didn't get back to me directly by quoting my post, but the content in his post indicates he was unhappy with the starvation part in my post.



So what the purpose does this post serve? I was wondering at first, it certainly can't prove India is better than China regarding starvation. Then it occurred to me he may be trying to neutralize the frustration caused by India's failure in solving the poverty by bringing up famine happened in China over 40 years ago. That is why I quoted that Chinese saying "live in the present"ï¼Œmerely to remind him that dwelling on the past, especially China's past, does no good to India.
This is my post


Now I think people can get a full picture of this discussion, anyone who can point out where I mentioned something like forgetting about history? Or am i more like suggesting people should focus more on the present?

Don't dwell on the past=forget about the past?

And where does that territorial claim thing come from? What does it have to do with"live in the present"?
Most territorial claims are based on the historical ground, it is just a common tactic adopted by everyone.

The following part is off topic.
I quoted that saying for a reason, because Ray has developed a bad habit of citing old Chinese history rather than resorting to the present China to prove his odd theory which he believes can suit the present China. That is hilarious, isn't it?

Ray's obsession with the old China is quite inexplicable. History, though is always used as a mirror, can't tell the full picture of the present. Not to mention that Ray's historical knowledge about China is very partial, which further reduces the creditability of his theory.

As per my observation, I speculate there are two reasons behind Ray's obsession with the old China.

First, Ray may be trying to prove the original sin in China's rising which he believes is rooted in the whole Chinese civilization, it makes denying the positive sides of China's rising more convenient. That is probably why we have witnessed Ray brought up the ancient China's territorial expansion again and again and used it as a proof of the existence of imperialism in the present China. In fact, territorial expansion existed in almost every country in the old days before modern international laws were established. But that can't stop him from singling China out and making China an exception.

Second, Ray may be unable to face the present China. From dealing with the old China, he can gain more confidence, especially when he was studying the history of China being ruled by non-Hans. That is probably why we can hear the ridiculous claim that Manchu are not Chinese, because that fits well for his mental masturbation that China had been ravaged by foreigners as India had by British. Minority ruled India before, but no one called them non-Indian. Well I have expressed this idea before, so I am stopping here.

Nice talking to you guys.
It is always interesting to have a tête-à-tête with you.

While you are entitled to rebut what myfair has written, but in a forum, anything written, even if it is one to one, can be commented upon by another, if the said person feels it is essential to clear the air. I took such a course.

Indeed all Orientals, be they Indians or Chinese, do take recourse to a wee bit of moral high standing. Nothing new! I beg to disagree that we are fonder of preaching than the Chinese. Who 'teaches lessons' to its neighbours? Not India. It is the Chinese who wanted to teach, not only the Indians a lesson, but also the Vietnamese! So, they are the preacher of all good things, and of all thing bright and beautiful, all creatures great or small. (In case you did not know, it is a Christian hymn in praise of God!) So, China is the teacher and God of the block! China proposes and China disposes! Wow! And Double Wow!!

Now, starvation is indeed a sore point with a whole lot of countries, including India. The environments creating starvation are many. The baseline for starvation in the West need not be the same in India as is the oft used term you find – living on less than $2!! $2 goes a long way in India and that is not fathomable by the West. It does not go in the US, but there sure are people who are starving. Times also change. For instance, I marvelled when my father used to tell me that 4 annas (16 made the Rupee) would get you a maund of rice (I don't know the equivalent in kilo, but it was a bag worth!). Starvation is also caused by poor distribution systems like in India. It can be also caused by local authorities who will slavedrive on little food (as in China). I would also like to state that starvation cases are also there in the West, even though not so publicised as even it is observed in the East.

Therefore, the issue is not who has more starvation. The issue is what the causes are. Therefore, coy smugness in hectoring does appear a trifle misplaced. I am not unhappy at your post on Starvation in India. I merely brought out some facts since I found you adrift having lost your moorings!

Corruption is universal. The mode is different. What was Enron, or the Wall Street collapse all about? Isn't Mismanagement or duping the common man and stealing his money and fudging the books not corruption? Heard about the Mafia buying up Senators or of the Teamsters? And China? Purer than Virgin Mary? I can go on giving examples, but I will give it a break.

Indian education is not perfect, but it is pretty good. Our universities and colleges are world class in imparting education. The number of India graduates abroad and contributing is an example of its prowess. The fact that outsourcing is causing such heartburn to the US is an indicator of Indian education.

It is an incorrect assumption that the Indian Army is treating people brutally. The Indian Army is addressing terrorists and I am sure you are aware that Pakistanis, Afghanis, Uzbeks, Pathans are not Kashmiris – the chaps against whom the Indian Army action is being taken. The very fact that Arundhuti Roy and Verabear Rao can preach the break up of India in a seminar in New Delhi should show how tolerant the government is. By Law, it is sedition and yet they are not being arrested! So, that should show what human rights is all about. Compare it with the action taken against the Gang of Four, or Liu Xiaobo and a host of other such people, who are taken for 're-education' which simply means jail. The 'good work' during the Tibetan and Uighur unrest is surely not the ideal example of human rights! Therefore, the Chinese are hardly in a position to talk about human rights to India! I hope the message is loud and clear!

I agree India has fought more wars than China. China does not fight wars. It only 'teaches lessons'! Just check how many lessons China has been teaching and you would get the answer.

We may not have signed anything, but the stark fact remains that India has NOT engaged in Proliferation. China HAS China acceded to the nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT) as a nuclear-weapon state, but it has given Pakistan the nuclear knowhow and for all one knows, a live nuke for 'development' purpose.

Of course, it is always the Indians who start the fracas here. One does not expect you to think otherwise, since that is also the CCP view that India is the cause of all ills of the world, while the Chinese are but idols as in a Japanese Shinto shrine!

It is good that you try to remind us of our problems. May I ask, if you take it upon yourself to teaches us, then who is preaching?


You mentioned 'There is a saying in China, "活在当下", which loosely translates into "live in the present". Now, what does it mean? How can one live in the present if one has no regards to one's history? Everyone lives in the present, what is so cataclysmic about the saying unless it was mentioned with a loaded innuendo! The past imposes on the present and it is inclusive!

One could focus on the present, but when someone raises an issue that is uncomfortable to the one who was harping on the present to sail his/ her boat, then one is forced to remind the person about their 'glorious past' that seems to tarnish their present!

Most territorial claims of China are tweaks in history. For instance, a flash of suzerainty is converted to justify annexation.

I regret to say my historical knowledge of China is partial. I am yet to find such self appointed historians like you refuting any single comment of mine! So, in true Chinese style, you make sweeping statements and pass them as Gospel Truth! Please do not overreach yourself!

Old history but similar mindset in the present. The fact that you have not refuted the history and that it has irked you, is proof enough that what I wrote is hardly 'partial'? I am constrained to state it is not I who is hilarious, it is you who is having all roll on the floor laughing or as the Americans say LMAO!!

It is so interesting to note that you are a mind reader and you can read into my mind and state why I resort to history of China. I am afraid you are wrong by a long shot.

I like reading history. I like knowing people and their culture and their background. It helps in understanding peoples. I presume that is no crime.

Let us address your claim that all Nations are guilty of territorial expansion. That is correct. What is reprehensible of China is not only imperialism, but cultural and linguistic genocide of people invaded and their lands captured! In one of the thread where the Miao issue was being discussed, one of the Chinese posters himself mentioned that they have been Hanised! And it is a historical and ethnocultural fact that all peoples invaded south of Yangtse were treated as 'barbarians' and until the 1930s, the names of the outgroups (wai ren) were commonly written in characters with the animal radical: the Di, a northern tribe were linked to the dog; the Man and Min of the South were characterised with reptiles; the Qiangs were written with a sheep radical. This reflected the Han Chinese conviction that civilisation and culture were linked with humanity; alien groups living outside the pale of Han society were regarded as inhuman savages.

The custom of sharply distinguishing between the inner and outer people went along with the calling China the Middle Kingdom (zhong guo) , which began by ruling the Central plain (zhongyang) in North China. Rather than using outright military conquest, the theory of 'using the Chinese ways to transform the barbarians (yongxiabianyi)' was promulgated. By cultural absorption or racial integration through intermarriage, a barbarian could become a Han Chinese (Hanhua).

What have you to say about this inhuman attitude and forcing people to adopt Han culture and identity?

It is not that I cannot face present China. I have, many a time. I am also very appreciative of the strides made by China throughout history. I am on record here to acknowledge the growth and rise of modern China. However, that in no way makes me a votary of Blind Faith. I am also quite critical of the faults of India. So, don't gloat that negative China alone fascinates me.

What, however marvels me is the unholy haste of China to wipe out history and act smug that every part of China was and is Han! Why this indecent haste to make all learn Mandarin, adopt Han culture and wipe away from memory of their own language, culture and heritage? Historically, it has been done, but if 'we live in the present', then God's Truth is that old style imperialism has no place and modern people will refuse to take such horrendous diktats of forgetting who they are. Hence, you have the Tibetan and Uighurs refusing to comply.

I am not lecturing you, but take the example of India. While India is one, the Central Govt does not impose that all should talk and write in Hindi and adopt UP or MP culture and forget their origin. I am a Bengali and while I am as good an Indian as any other, I also revel in being a Bengali with all its joys and warts of our culture, heritage, language and history. Therefore, there is no cultural and historical genocide in India but the same cannot be said of China!


I disagree on your contention that I 'mentally masturbate'. I appreciate your limited grasp of English and hence you resort to American vulgar 'catch all' phrases. I don't mentally masturbate. I merely mentally stimulate my brains to discern through the inexactitude that you and your ilk churn in an assembly line mode of platitudinous disinformation. And when informed so, you feign to be an aggrieved party.

Indeed India has been ruled by foreigners and they are not called Indians. They are and still are called British.

If you mean Moghuls and Muslims, then most of the Muslim are Hindu convertees and are thus Indians. The Moguls adopted India and so they are Indians. And here comes the coup de grace – they continue to follow their Muslim culture and have not been forced into the ancient Indian culture unlike China, where all have been forced to forget their past and become Hans!!

Nice talking to you.
 
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ajtr

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China to relent on stapled visas for Kashmiris


Even as New Delhi gets ready to welcome US president Barack Obama on Sunday, ties with China may also be in for a welcome boost. A month ahead of Chinese premier Wen Jiabao's India visit, the buzz in diplomatic circles indicate Beijing is willing to review its policy of issuing stapled visas to residents.
India has protested the practice, asserting uniform visas must be issued to all Indians irrespective of domicile and ethnicity.

The announcement calling off the policy is likely to coincide with Jiabao's New Delhi visit, say government officials.

A government source credited the signs of thaw to the recent meeting between Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and Jiabao, followed by the visit of Zhou Yongkang, a key member of the Chinese Communist Party politburo, this week.

Yongkang, who's been preparing ground for Jiabao's visit in the second week of December, stressed on removing all "irritants in ties", egging external affairs minister SM Krishna to "jump the wall". Krishna replied saying he'd already climbed the "great wall" (during his visit to China two years ago).
 

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