New Assault Rifles for Indian Army

[hitesh]

so what happend to DRDO's Multical rifle?, was it flushed in drain again.

No they are not, these are for strike forces rest of army will use MCWS

 

[Bhadra]

A gun with above characteristics does not exit. A 500 yards range is a sniper rifle.

That is starting range of snipper. A snipper would always try and remain out of the range of assault rilfe. He also has to ensure that enemy does not carry out assault on him or is out of the rnage to be chased. Of course uless it a bUA.

All other characteristics are for a different type of guns not in one gun. How do you cut weight, still have rifle with less recoil as well as muzzle climb. Also a cobalt barrel is prohibitive in price. Jacket cooled barrel will make it unwieldy. Heat dissipation is an issue in a machine gun which fires boxes upon boxes of ammunition to deter the enemy from approaching. A soldier who carries a few clips of ammunition and fires to kill the enemy with marksmanship qualities does his job more with precision, less with burst upon burst of ammunition which will overheat the barrel. If I correctly understand loss of heat with jacket ejection and muzzle expulsion of the bullet dissipates most of the heat. This problem will be serious when too much ammunition is wasted as American GIs do in a battle situation. Better trained and motivated troops never fire aimlessly. They do not wish to give indication of their position to the enemy.

you have no idea of the attritional battles in Conventional warfare where attrition is inflicted on the enemy in bracked manner range by range by verious weapons.

You also do not seem to believe in attrition theory wherein the amout of lead put towards the target is given importance.

Even the last man in atrrition bracket (below 300m) has to have auto rifles so that he is able to direct more shit towards enemy.

Then there is a requirement of assault rifles wherein the assaulting soldier is required to pump in maximum magazines towrds the target following theory of probability.

For you a soldier is "ek Goli ek dushman" - the old theory designed for point 303 rifles in defense.

In modern infantry warfare- the amount of lead directed towards the target matters. Or the world would not have moved to automation.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Read to learn ..

Today a Infantryman needs a firearm >

1. Which should be stupid simple to operate and clean.
2. It must able to get its job done in harsh conditions.
3. Marksman ship is very important in Infantry and an Rifleman of today must able to engage at short as well as on medium ranges ( 25-500ms ).
4. Ammunition spending is very important, Every round is counted, Full auto ( Burst ) is useful in very special conditions.
5. There is always a weight limitation to overall solider`s gear.

These are few points which must about a rifle for a IA Infantryman not SF nor Civilian market or any-other Army ..

For you a soldier is "ek Goli ek dushman" - the old theory designed for point 303 rifles in defense.

In modern infantry warfare- the amount of lead directed towards the target matters. Or the world would not have moved to automation.

 

[AshutoshNSingh]

Read to learn ..

every round counts and full auto is useful in very special conditions - agree. Yet MICWS doesn't have three round burst option in it? Only semi and full auto.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

INSAS 1B1 GSQR was made during 90s, Back then the experience gained from IPKF suggested for Burst mode to reduce ammo spending, But now GSQR changed as it proved in CT that full auto is required for spray and pray tactics ..

Hence you have no burst but full auto, For conservation of round there is semi ..

every round counts and full auto is useful in very special conditions - agree. Yet MICWS doesn't have three round burst option in it? Only semi and full auto.

 

[Ky Loung]

every round counts and full auto is useful in very special conditions - agree. Yet MICWS doesn't have three round burst option in it? Only semi and full auto.

You can do burst in full auto mode. Both civilians and US military train in semi-auto mode. Unless you're humping a light machine gun (SAW) you almost never go full auto. There are some special condition tho, like being in an ambush where you need maximum suppressive firepower to get out of the kill zone. Even then you really don't need to switch to full auto. You can simulate full auto while on semi-auto. It's not hard and you get better accuracy.

Hits count the rest is bullshit. It's why the US military/civilian spend so much time and money improving marksmanship. Americans take accuracy beyond anal level. It is not uncommon to see a decent marksman getting hits over 600 yards with a standard AR15/M16/M4. My cousin host official long tournaments with standard AR15 in his gun club. The range is between 200 to 1000 yards with iron sight or optics. And yes they get constant hits with their AR15 at 1000 yards with iron sights.

Norfolk County Rifle Range

Military AR15 (M4, M16, Mk18, etc) use chrome lined barrel. Most civilian AR15 barrel are chrome lined. However unlike the military, US civilians can picked different type materials use for the barrel. The military change M4 barrel around 10k and sometime 5k or less depending on how hard they are use. Personally I found accuracy still in an acceptable level between 15k-20k range but the rifle isn't use hard. Heat degrade and shorten barrel life. So the longer you keep the barrel hot the faster the barrel will degrade.

 

[Bhadra]

It seems you all gentlemen have never fired under real operational conditions :

Firing when tons of artillery shell are bursting on top of you .. and splinters are shirking all around.

The staccato and noise of combat forces your head down...

Firing when your bunker is taking direct hits of RPG, RL, RcL and missiles...

Firing when your dugout or bunker is being fired at by a LMG or MMG and one dare not even look through the loop hole leave aside firing through it..

Firing for life when you have been trapped in an ambush.. and one hears nothing but magazine after magazines being pumped towards you

Firing when you suddenly come across a man holding an AK in his hand and hiding in a bush just below or above you or astride you.. and you react as if you have just been touched by a Cobra..

Have you ever winked at a tango when suddenly faced with him and his gun misfires and you are so perplexed that you could also not fire... Huh..

Aiming and firing under real battle conditions is not that easy ... battle field is not a firing range . Battle is an environment where thousands of things happen together ..

your buddy gets wounded or killed, there may be mud in your eyes, there could be a layer of thick smoke in front of your, you might be choking inside your dugout or a bunker,

you may be assaulting where you are more worried to reach the objective rather than aim and fire. How does one aim and fire while constantly moving forward - well fire and move always is not possible.. or you are part of move element.. and can not stop.

Ultimately what matters is taking recourse to probability - probability of hitting the enemy with a sound and best possible directional aim called natural aim.

So heavy calibre and medium calibre small arms fire as "area weapons" mostly on fixed lines or directional lines and not aimed except in CQB conditions. It is totally spraying lead and working on the theory of possibilities and probabilities which are calculated as bound to occur. And those do occur - then those weapons are devastating.

Personal weapon necessarily is not aimed and fired but directed towards target and fired. That is why one adapted in natural aim is the best combat firer. Align - pick and fire- with both your eyes open . In conventional battles, the advances in weaponry and technology makes the conditions of combat a hell for a soldiers and there is so much fire on the battle field that conditions for picking up rifle and aiming and then firing rarely arise.

Assault Rifles, the personal weapon for most, must be thus be designed to fire rapidly, have less dispersion of the burst, should be simple and rugged, has very good reliability, should be able to pump down one magazine in one go besides controlled bursts, and should be light to enable to be fired from all positions and under all conditions . An example of this is tengos firing backwards with their AKs by placing their rifles on the shoulders pointing backwards when they are running away from soldiers firing on them and chasing them. Not aimed fired but casualties do occur by such firing.

Marksmanship on ranges is graduation towards the ladder of Combat shooting, reflex shooting and natural shooting and not the end itself. Battle fields are ranges but not necessarily and always a 300m or 1000m range where you take aim, close one eye and stop breathing and then press the trigger as if squeezing a lemon piece. Besides being a range, it is a place where one needs every thing to survive for which the most fundamental thing is to kill the enemy as soon and as quickly as possible.

 

[Ky Loung]

Bhadra

It seems you know more about fighting than the US and Indian Army combine. Maybe they should hire you.

I can only speak for the US military. The US military do not train in the use of burst or full auto. Even Special Operation guys rarely go burst or full auto. In the USA there is a saying "Hit counts, everything is BS". The phase have been proven true every time. Our opponents go full auto on us. They miss we go semi auto and get hits. To help to be more accurate the US military starting in the late 1990 equip all M4/M16/etc with scopes and red dots.

Now almost every M4/M16/etc have some type of optic. Most civilian guns now mount some type of optics. In fact over the years less of US military and civilian AR15 comes with Iron Sight.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

All Foreign Assault Rifle under trial failed under Indian conditions.

The Indian Army began the final round of confirmatory trials in support of its requirement for 44,618 close quarter battle (CQB) 5.56 mm carbines and 33.6 million rounds of ammunition on 9 June, defence industry officials told IHS Jane's .

The Beretta ARX-160, Colt M4, and Israel Weapon Industries (IWI) Galil Ace carbines will undergo a series of tests at army establishments and weapon-testing facilities until the end of July. These include weapon sights, furniture, and ammunition trials.

The competing guns will also undergo a "mud test" to gauge their ability to operate in poor conditions, an evaluation all three failed during trials in 2012 in the Rajasthan desert and high-altitude regions.

Source : Indian Army kicks off final carbine trials - IHS Jane's 360

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[W.G.Ewald]

^^
Some variation of Kalashnikov needed?

 

[karn]

^^
Some variation of Kalashnikov needed?

That is why they are still used ....

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Galil is based on Kalashnikov, But it also failed due to weak barrel properties that lead to issue over high altitude ..

^^Some variation of Kalashnikov needed?

 

[pmaitra]

Bhadra

It seems you know more about fighting than the US and Indian Army combine. Maybe they should hire you.

I can only speak for the US military. The US military do not train in the use of burst or full auto. Even Special Operation guys rarely go burst or full auto. In the USA there is a saying "Hit counts, everything is BS". The phase have been proven true every time. Our opponents go full auto on us. They miss we go semi auto and get hits. To help to be more accurate the US military starting in the late 1990 equip all M4/M16/etc with scopes and red dots.

Now almost every M4/M16/etc have some type of optic. Most civilian guns now mount some type of optics. In fact over the years less of US military and civilian AR15 comes with Iron Sight.

He is already hired by the Indian Army. Try to see it from his perspective from what he is saying, even if you must disagree.

 

[Hari Sud]

If all the foreign assault rifles under trial failed, what next? Poor foreign vendors. They printed a huge number of glossy brochures for nothing.

Kunal Biswas may have an idea.

 

[W.G.Ewald]

That is why they are still used ....

I should have said "more robust version of Kalashnikov"

 

[W.G.Ewald]

If all the foreign assault rifles under trial failed, what next? Poor foreign vendors. They printed a huge number of glossy brochures for nothing.

The costs of marketing get added into the contract cost of those that are eventually won, I guess.

 

[karn]

I should have said "more robust version of Kalashnikov"

I remember that somebody made the argument that one does not need to be too reliable if it sacrifices other features or adds on cost . I recall that there was a canadian competition where only the AK passed.
There are a very few trials as stringent .

 

[karn]

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/media
Pictures of the Ghatak 7.62 rifle at Aero India. I recall that we could not find a picture of the new OFB 7.62 rifle (Im not sure if it was on this thread)

 

[West fleet Admiral]

Re: India goes shopping for a new assault rifle

Does T-91 stand a chance in the competition. It is affordable as well as reliable.

 

[ShoorVeer]

Re: India goes shopping for a new assault rifle

Does T-91 stand a chance in the competition. It is affordable as well as reliable.

Wikipedia says it is used by the IA. Dont know if its true? @Kunal, @Ray, @sayareakd any ideas? Also is it a reliable weapon? Most AR-15 style rifles are not so reliable in India !