New Assault Rifles for Indian Army

[ALBY]

Re: India goes shopping for a new assault rifle

REVIEW OF GALIL ACE

The Galil, the first IDF assault rifle, has been completely redesigned by IWI engineers developing a version that incorporates a fair number of improvements concerning ergonomics and materials, giving to this military classic a new operative life. When Ysrael Galil and Ya'akov Lior designed the Galil they were solving an emergency. During 1973, Israelis were equipped with the Belgian FAL in two versions: the "Aleph" model as individual weapon and the "Beth" model"¦

for full reading,visit;
Galil Ace 5.56

 

[ALBY]

Re: India goes shopping for a new assault rifle

OK,comes back to india's rifle.what's the defference between AKM and AK103?when i come to wiki,i saw AK from AK101 to AK107,i just feel 囧(looks like a face?and thats my feeling....).so whats the difference except the caliber?
.

Difference in barell twist,furniture,accuracy and range.

 

[charlie]

Re: India goes shopping for a new assault rifle

Indian problem like the Chinese ones is not design but the production... design may be good but production standards let down a good design.

Same is the case China..... they all want cheap goods.

Well Chinese rifle or ammo compared to indian rifle or ammo is way better, I wont say it's as good as western standards but then again they are lot cheaper

 

[ztunelover]

Re: India goes shopping for a new assault rifle

Why is the HK416 not a contentder for the new standard army rifle? And the sf for that matter? Why go with the colt m4 when the 416 is superiour? They match an ak system for reliability and and top shelf rifle for accuracy, and have the m4s modularity.

 

[mikhail]

Re: India goes shopping for a new assault rifle

Well Chinese rifle or ammo compared to indian rifle or ammo is way better, I wont say it's as good as western standards but then again they are lot cheaper

pray tell us how the heck did you came to this abrupt conclusion out of the blue!the Indian made INSAS-1B 5.56 mm assault rifle is quite cheap and maintainance friendly.plus it's specs are quite the similar to the U.S. made M-16A2 variant and and it's quite an accurate one.
on the contrary the same can't be said about the chini made QZ-95 assault rifle.the Indian soldiers who fired that assault rifle in the previous Sino-Indian exercise in 2007 had quite a negative opinion about it and criticized it for it's relatively low accuracy and high recoil(both these drawbacks are not quite desirable in a next generation assault rifle)....

 

[charlie]

Re: India goes shopping for a new assault rifle

pray tell us how the heck did you came to this abrupt conclusion out of the blue!the Indian made INSAS-1B 5.56 mm assault rifle is quite cheap and maintainance friendly.plus it's specs are quite the similar to the U.S. made M-16A2 variant and and it's quite an accurate one.
on the contrary the same can't be said about the chini made QZ-95 assault rifle.the Indian soldiers who fired that assault rifle in the previous Sino-Indian exercise in 2007 had quite a negative opinion about it and criticized it for it's relatively low accuracy and high recoil(both these drawbacks are not quite desirable in a next generation assault rifle)....

simple my friend by using it, I don't own an INSAS for sure but I tried it though I never tried INSAS -1b but I talk to my friends who use Old INSAS and got some feed back from them but I did buy few Chinese rifle and one was norinco type 97 and it was amazing I would prefer that over Tar 21 and in the above comment I didn't specify any specific rifle I meant in general terms when you compare our rounds to Chinese rounds they are much better and they cost some what the same

 

[pmaitra]

Re: India goes shopping for a new assault rifle

I cannot comment on the accuracy or recoil, but from the looks of it, the Chinese QBZ rifles exude a sense of refinement and quality in workmanship/manufacturing.

 

[pmaitra]

Re: India goes shopping for a new assault rifle

Israeli engineers have recently (about a year or so now) have visited RFI. There is speculation amongst RFI employees that an Israeli design will be introduced and rifles manufactured at RFI therefrom.

 

[Defenceindia2010]

Re: India goes shopping for a new assault rifle

DRDO and the OFB should continue upgrading and ironing out the defects in INSAS Rifle, using new production methods and new materials along with customizing the rifle for different operational requirements for different force structures, (Indian Armed Forces, Para Military and Law Enforcement) this can be done with help from Israel taking into account the continual modification to IMI Galil,(Galil ACE).

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Re: India goes shopping for a new assault rifle

I dont have much idea about Civilian Arms products, But military issue type-95 is no where near TAR-21 so does INSAS ..

Afaik type-95 has one of the poor iron sights, Ammo which range more or less of M43 and jerks more than INSAS with a painful short size butt ..

If you have optics for your type-97, you would also know that you would need cheek rest which bull pup such as type-95 / famas cannot offer but TAR-21.

simple my friend by using it, I don't own an INSAS for sure but I tried it though I never tried INSAS -1b but I talk to my friends who use Old INSAS and got some feed back from them but I did buy few Chinese rifle and one was norinco type 97 and it was amazing I would prefer that over Tar 21 and in the above comment I didn't specify any specific rifle I meant in general terms when you compare our rounds to Chinese rounds they are much better and they cost some what the same

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Re: India goes shopping for a new assault rifle

INSAS is darn good rifle, the issuing of RFI globally is part of a SCAM which too already caught but still the deals is going thanks to corrupt Gov..

New York: The CBI is examining documents that cast a shadow over one of the army's biggest contracts - a deal to replace 64,000 INSAS assault rifles that's worth a billion dollars or Rs. 5.5 crores.

Among the five contenders is US arms manufacturer Sig Sauer, which used to be represented in India by Anca Neacsu, who is in jail along with her husband, controversial arms dealer Abhishek Verma.

The bribe was, according to the CBI, intended to ensure that the "VIP" removed from government records an anonymous complaint about Sig Sauer filed in the context of another contract, which could have led in the company being blacklisted and eliminated from consideration for the billion dollar INSAS assault rifles deal, for which it is now in the running.

The other player in the fray, Bhupinder, 64, is quieter and flies below the radar. Known as 'Tusky' in arms circles for his buck teeth, the nickname is a legacy of his days at Lawrence School Sanawar.A burly 6'3" clean-shaven Sikh, he lives in an opulent bungalow in South Delhi's Vasant Vihar. The son-in-law of a retired Army general, he represents Italian gunmaker Beretta.A keen golfer, he can be seen teeing off at the Delhi Golf Club and Army Golf Club.

Around 2009, Bhupinder took over as Italian weapon-maker Beretta's representative in India. "We have been working with Beretta officially for three years," he told INDIA TODAY. "There can be no hanky-panky when we deal with the home and defence ministries." His son Udai Singh, however, says they have applied for, but are yet to get, rbi permission to set up an office in India.Tusky and Udai Singh were the only arms agents present on all four days of the Border Security Force (BSF)'s weapon trials held between May 17 and 20 at their facility in Bhondsi, Uttar Pradesh. Officials present at the trials remember Bhupinder plying BSF officials with beer and soft drinks during the trials. On February 14, 2011, Delhi's defence circles sat up and took notice of him. Beretta signed the mha contract worth over Rs.200 crore for 34,377 carbines. Tusky was now in the big league of arms dealers such as Suresh Nanda, named by CBI as an agent in the Barak missile deal, and Mohinder Singh Sahni, also named by CBI as the agent in the Krasnopol guided munitions case.

The Army's tender has already been dogged by allegations that it had been fixed to favour Beretta. Two of the world's biggest rifle manufacturers, Belgium's FN Herstal and Germany's Heckler and Koch, did not participate in the contract bid in 2011 because they were not confident of winning.

SIG has dropped Verma and Neacsu from their India business and is competing in the Army contract, for which trials will be held soon. Verma's removal from the scene means the competition for the world's largest gun contract has shrunk to just one important player.

Source : ndian Army at the mercy of shadowy arms dealers, lobbyists : The Big Story - India Today
Source : Multi-crore arms deals: videos of Home Ministry, alleged kickbacks | NDTV.com

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/indian-army/51283-if-multi-cal-rifle-tender-falls-2.html

DRDO and the OFB should continue upgrading and ironing out the defects in INSAS Rifle, using new production methods and new materials along with customizing the rifle for different operational requirements for different force structures, (Indian Armed Forces, Para Military and Law Enforcement) this can be done with help from Israel taking into account the continual modification to IMI Galil,(Galil ACE).

 

[Kunal Biswas]

There was already a thread running with same topic and with more info, Thread are now merged and you also get a poll here now ..

 

[charlie]

Re: India goes shopping for a new assault rifle

I dont have much idea about Civilian Arms products, But military issue type-95 is no where near TAR-21 so does INSAS ..

Afaik type-95 has one of the poor iron sights, Ammo which range more or less of M43 and jerks more than INSAS with a painful short size butt ..

If you have optics for your type-97, you would also know that you would need cheek rest which bull pup such as type-95 / famas cannot offer but TAR-21.

I agree with you on cheek rest issue when you mount an optic, but I used it for planking so iron sight was good enough for me, anyway the time I had the rifle there was no mounts available for it over here.

The trigger feel on type 97 is much better the Tavor and everybody that I met who tried the rifles agree on it

Here is the review from a guy who own's a gun shop

Wolverine Supplies - Wolverine Supplies - Norinco Type 97

Price of tavor Wolverine Supplies - Online Gun Store | Product Details | IWI Tavor TAR-21 .223 Rem Black (.223)


Price of Type 97 Wolverine Supplies - Online Gun Store | Product Details | Norinco Type 97 5.56 Nato 18.6"

 

[Illusive]

Re: India goes shopping for a new assault rifle

I cannot comment on the accuracy or recoil, but from the looks of it, the Chinese QBZ rifles exude a sense of refinement and quality in workmanship/manufacturing.

 

[ztunelover]

Re: India goes shopping for a new assault rifle

simple my friend by using it, I don't own an INSAS for sure but I tried it though I never tried INSAS -1b but I talk to my friends who use Old INSAS and got some feed back from them but I did buy few Chinese rifle and one was norinco type 97 and it was amazing I would prefer that over Tar 21 and in the above comment I didn't specify any specific rifle I meant in general terms when you compare our rounds to Chinese rounds they are much better and they cost some what the same

The type 97 is worse than the tavors already crap mechanical bore offset, doesn't have the ambi mag release, Has even less rail space for mounting accessories, doesn't feed with half the gi mags, also has trouble with lar and pmags. And half of them have trouble feeding. I don't give two craps about the tavor or any bullpup except maybe the aug, but really dude? The t97 is a joke compared to any of the other modern bullpups. Frankly I'm disappointed that India is fielding such a limited and outdated or unproven rifles. The colt, if it's a full size 20 inch is unnecessary size and weight, the burrito I mean beretta arx160? Which noteworthy army last used berreta rifles? It's unproven. Galil ACE & Sig 551 arguably the better options of this lot but if I'm honest compared to a SCAR, or G36/XM8 or the HK416 they are overweight in the sigs case and underperforming in both of their cases. The CZ805 I have a bit more faith in than the burrito. Their previous rifle the vz58 was a solid quality rifle. But even then, this is an unproven rifle and the czech sf are still running vzs instead of brens which raises a red flag for me.

 

[ALBY]

Re: India goes shopping for a new assault rifle

I agree with you on cheek rest issue when you mount an optic, but I used it for planking so iron sight was good enough for me, anyway the time I had the rifle there was no mounts available for it over here.

The trigger feel on type 97 is much better the Tavor and everybody that I met who tried the rifles agree on it

Here is the review from a guy who own's a gun shop

Wolverine Supplies - Wolverine Supplies - Norinco Type 97

Price of tavor Wolverine Supplies - Online Gun Store | Product Details | IWI Tavor TAR-21 .223 Rem Black (.223)


Price of Type 97 Wolverine Supplies - Online Gun Store | Product Details | Norinco Type 97 5.56 Nato 18.6"

And these Tavors doesn't come with the optics.Adding MEPRO sighhts means giving away another 500/600 $.

 

[arnabmit]

[pdf]http://www.berettausa.com/file.aspx?DocumentId=94[/pdf]

 

[Hari Sud]

Are 65,000 rifles army uses. This army consists of 1.1 million men under arms.

Some stupid guy is making us believe that INSAS is totally being dumped.

Not true.

INSAS would be around. It has been refined to death. No more refinement are possible.

If my gut feeling is right then it is the Arms Lobby in Delhi, which is spreading the rumors about INSAS rifles.

65,000 rifles are good for special forces or Ghatak units of the army. The latter is one unit in a battalion. Then the projected number of new rifles make sense.

Can I throw a new twist in the discussion. There was a very good 7.62 bore FAL rifle with the Indian army. It had the longer range and accuracy. It kicked like mule at 600 yards. FAL is rated as one of the ten best rifles even by the American who shifted to lower caliber M-16 rifle. For first ten years it was drag on US troops in VIetnam. They would drop M-16 and pick up the enemy AK 47. It jammed in automatic fire. But US arms lobby and their paid general argued that combat in future would be at 200 yards, hence lower caliber bullet and a large number of these would do the job. US generals were thinking of more urban combat less frontal assaults like future INDO- Pakistan conflicts etc.

Where as a FAL bullet at 400 yards would pass thru the enemy soldier and hit the next one and kill him, the M-16 is an inhumane bullet. It cannot pass thru the soldier at 400 yards, but turns around inside the body and does greater damage to the organs of the soldier hit with it. He or she dies but inhumanely. Reasons, the bullet does not have punch. The all powerful AK 47 has its match in FAL, but alas the Indian generals were reading too much into the American generals. They created a situation to copy the American battle field theories into smaller caliber rifle for India in INSAS. Like m-16, it had its ten years of teething problems. Indian generals together with arms lobby decided to dump it before all the problems worked out.

 

[sayareakd]

they are planning to make money, even Media is full of report that INSAS is outdated and useless rifle.

 

[arnabmit]

Are 65,000 rifles army uses. This army consists of 1.1 million men under arms.

Some stupid guy is making us believe that INSAS is totally being dumped.

Not true.

65,000 to be purchased with 100,000 more to be manufactured in RFI under ToT. Total planned acquisition as of now = 165,000 in the 1st phase. More phases will come later.