New Assault Rifles for Indian Army

[Jackd]

For ar, according to financial express, only Tavor 7, Car 817ar and K2c2 have been selected as final contenders.

 

[Jackd]

For CQB, f90, iwi's tavor 21( maybe) and 2 other rifles have been selected as finalists

 

[vishal_lionheart]

F 90 is an excellent version of Carbine as well as AR. Interchangeable barrels

 

[devhensh]

For ar, according to financial express, only Tavor 7, Car 817ar and K2c2 have been selected as final contenders.

Lots of contradictory and confusing information..... Tavor 7 and Car 817 are in 7.62x51mm calibre....whereas K2C is in 5.56x45mm....so if K2C is the only 5.56 rifle, chosen , it is the winner by defualt ......Also, i used to think that there is an immediate Tender/ requirement for 7.62x 51mm......Is there a separate tender for 5.56x45 too ??

F90 is being touted as a frontrunner ....How can that be? .....Firstly it's a Bullpup, which conventional armies, usually avoid for general Infantry....Secondly, if they indeed are open to accept Bullpups, why not tried and tested Tavors.....Also, IWI X95 is reputed to be one of the best bullpup rifles in the world....

 

[devhensh]

For ar, according to financial express, only Tavor 7, Car 817ar and K2c2 have been selected as final contenders.

Self Delete....Duplicate Post..........................................

 

[rkhanna]

Here is a small opinion piece by an Aussie SASR operator on Bullpups.

"My current role allows me to conduct training with soldiers from around the Army and a major problem is the fixed length butt, which affects soldiers who are smaller or taller than the average height. It’s difficult for them to achieve correct eye relief (even with the new extended Picatinny rail on the EF88), correct weapon position in the shoulder is also difficult, and fore grip position is suboptimal, all of which lead to ineffective application of fire."

"Finally, for today’s modern combat soldier, having the ability to keep oneself behind cover as much as possible, while still being capable of returning effective fire at the enemy is critical. It’s really quite simple to train off-handed shooting if the weapon is capable of doing so effectively—which the Steyr, including the new EF88, isn’t. After less than one day of training with the M4 we have our soldiers shoot LF6 both strong and off hand and all soldiers can achieve this within two or three attempts."

https://www.aspistrategist.org.au/the-ef88-versus-the-m4ar-15-a-special-operators-perspective/


Coming to the Tavor - Including the X-95 - THe Tavor suffers from the inherent problem of having a heavier butt.

see any indian SF pic of a soldier firing a tavor or handling the tavor in a fire ready position. The barrel tends to point up in a relaxed pose. Line Infantry grunts this is going to be a problem. You will have to spend more time and money in training to get them to use the weapon effectively.

Its not without reason that almost all the SOF units in the world use conventional AR style weapons.

IMO - I dont think the IA is going to buy Tavor 7 for the infantry as simply it will be TOO expensive.

BUT i would like that all the TAR-21s currently in inventory be junked and replaced by the X-95 and The Compact Tavor 7 Version. Another Irony is that our SOF units use the full lenght Tavor instead of the C-TAR /MTAR

 

[Enquirer]

Here is a small opinion piece by an Aussie SASR operator on Bullpups.

"My current role allows me to conduct training with soldiers from around the Army and a major problem is the fixed length butt, which affects soldiers who are smaller or taller than the average height. It’s difficult for them to achieve correct eye relief (even with the new extended Picatinny rail on the EF88), correct weapon position in the shoulder is also difficult, and fore grip position is suboptimal, all of which lead to ineffective application of fire."

"Finally, for today’s modern combat soldier, having the ability to keep oneself behind cover as much as possible, while still being capable of returning effective fire at the enemy is critical. It’s really quite simple to train off-handed shooting if the weapon is capable of doing so effectively—which the Steyr, including the new EF88, isn’t. After less than one day of training with the M4 we have our soldiers shoot LF6 both strong and off hand and all soldiers can achieve this within two or three attempts."

https://www.aspistrategist.org.au/the-ef88-versus-the-m4ar-15-a-special-operators-perspective/


Coming to the Tavor - Including the X-95 - THe Tavor suffers from the inherent problem of having a heavier butt.

see any indian SF pic of a soldier firing a tavor or handling the tavor in a fire ready position. The barrel tends to point up in a relaxed pose. Line Infantry grunts this is going to be a problem. You will have to spend more time and money in training to get them to use the weapon effectively.

Its not without reason that almost all the SOF units in the world use conventional AR style weapons.

IMO - I dont think the IA is going to buy Tavor 7 for the infantry as simply it will be TOO expensive.

BUT i would like that all the TAR-21s currently in inventory be junked and replaced by the X-95 and The Compact Tavor 7 Version. Another Irony is that our SOF units use the full lenght Tavor instead of the C-TAR /MTAR

Disclaimer: I haven't fired an assault weapon of any type.

That said, for a 7.62x51 caliber rifle, both the magazine and (much of) the barrel are going to be quite heavy. I feel that if mos of the weight rests between your pistol grip and your shoulder (as is the case for bullpup design), then you can effortlessly move in aiming position for a long time.

But if ENTIRE barrel and the magazine is beyond your pistol grip then the weight is balanced between the pistol grip and the EXTENDED left arm. This would tire the soldier pretty quickly if they need to move in the forward aiming position.

The effect of the fatigue is probably pretty obvious as MOST INDIAN SOLDIERS advance with their rifles at their hips and shoot in the 'gangster' style - which is without aiming! (this phenomenon is slowly changing though)

Also, I would expect the barrel deflection after the bullet exits the muzzle to be much higher in the non-bullpup rifles as the extra length accentuates the force. I would expect bullpup rifles to be more accurate on continuous firing.

Further, that 'instructor' commenting merely by 'looking' at the pics of bullpup rifles doesnt' carry much water. If he had actually used both the guns then it would have been something. That said, my commentary also comes from theoretical evaluation based on (solid)physics.

 

[vishal_lionheart]

Watch how versatile this F90 gun

 

[rkhanna]

That said, for a 7.62x51 caliber rifle, both the magazine and (much of) the barrel are going to be quite heavy. I feel that if mos of the weight rests between your pistol grip and your shoulder (as is the case for bullpup design), then you can effortlessly move in aiming position for a long time.

Unfortunately this is not the reality however . Conventional ARs are center mass heavy. The Tavor and other bullpups were deisnged to be stock heavy. Which leant to the theory that it was easier to shoot from standing, kneeling and modified positions. However that only works on the range. in Combat the Bullpups were poor weapons to fire when prone. Around Corners (single handed) and were inefficient in sustained fire fights for quick mag changes. While the Tavor (mag release / charging handle) and over all design does go a long way to address the issues it may still be the WRONG weapon for a line grunt but perfect for a SOF soldier who has to fight in narrow hallways/ caves / Climbing mountains / jumping out of planes - etc) - Which further begs my question as to why Indian SF/SFF etc didnt choose the CTAR or MTAR over the TAR-21

The effect of the fatigue is probably pretty obvious as MOST INDIAN SOLDIERS advance with their rifles at their hips and shoot in the 'gangster' style - which is without aiming! (this phenomenon is slowly changing though)

NO. That is due to poor SOPs. Indian Military still does not see the sling as a tactical piece of kit but as an accessory. Soldiers are not trained to shoot with the sling. See pictures of our SF jsut to make a point. See how low the Gun hangs next to their hip when in the ready position. The Butt of the gun does not line with the shoulder.
Or take a view on how our Soldiers (including NSG) Chest rigs are set up with the sling over it. Inefficient. In the west there are entire industries devoted to the sling.

Fatigue will end with BETTER TACTICS AND TRAINING. But that is changing and easily visiable now with hundres of videos of ongoing CASO's. nobody is firing from the hip enmass.

(ps. sometimes a situation calls for firing from the hip)

Also, I would expect the barrel deflection after the bullet exits the muzzle to be much higher in the non-bullpup rifles as the extra length accentuates the force. I would expect bullpup rifles to be more accurate on continuous firing.

Similar Accuracy with regards to the M4 / SIG MCX / HK 416/417 and SCAR. (infact SCAR MOA and recoil is superior) - though the SCAR Heavy does suffer from a major flaw - To keep the recoil low the barrel dissipates an excess amount of heat from the mouth making it really uncomfortable for another shooter to stand in close proximity)

Further, that 'instructor' commenting merely by 'looking' at the pics of bullpup rifles doesnt' carry much water. If he had actually used both the guns then it would have been something. That said, my commentary also comes from theoretical evaluation based on (solid)physics.

Lol the "instructor" has spent 15 years with the Aussie SASR. He is a firearms instructor. The GUN he is talking about is standard issue for the Aussie Military. Do the math.

 

[vishal_lionheart]

Another video Suitable for Urban as well as Jungle warfare

 

[vishal_lionheart]

Inside out of F90 ... ambidextrous, machine gun, well balanced compare to x95, Modular, Modern , anyone can fure like pistol..... Nextgen rifle.

 

[vishal_lionheart]

Car 817 is semi automatic rifle, Indian forces had face a lot of problems with semi automatic rifles in Sri Lanka and Coins ops in kashmir in the past. So it is not wise to go again with Carcal
America has given Sta - 1 ( strategic partner after Japan and SoKo ) status to India. They offered leverage only for S400. So it is difficult for India to go for Russian firearms. America will certainly take objections over it.

 

[vishal_lionheart]

I appreciate the knowledge of rkhanna sir for indepth knowledge of firearms. Salute you Sir.

 

[rkhanna]

I appreciate the knowledge of rkhanna sir for indepth knowledge of firearms. Salute you Sir.

No sir. unfortunately i dont have knowledge. I happen to have a bunch of relatives in the Armed Services and I listen to their feed back. and as a gun enthusiast spend a waaay too much time (unhealthy?) on gun forums.

 

[rkhanna]

Inside out of F90 ... ambidextrous, machine gun, well balanced compare to x95, Modular, Modern , anyone can fure like pistol..... Nextgen rifle.

Just to use this video as a case in point. How can that gun ever claim to be "ambidextrous" . ALL new bullpups including the Tavor are sold as that. But just look at the position of the case ejection port. If you were to change your hand you will be eating brass.

 

[rkhanna]

Car 817 is semi automatic rifle, Indian forces had face a lot of problems with semi automatic rifles in Sri Lanka and Coins ops in kashmir in the past. So it is not wise to go again with Carcal
America has given Sta - 1 ( strategic partner after Japan and SoKo ) status to India. They offered leverage only for S400. So it is difficult for India to go for Russian firearms. America will certainly take objections over it.

PS - To add fuel to the fire - Klashkanov just announced a new AK Rifle AK308 - Chambered for 7.62NATO

Cross between the AK103 and AN-12

https://www.businessinsider.in/The-...ge-7-62mm-NATO-round/articleshow/65480126.cms

 

[vishal_lionheart]

Also thanks a lot for Enquirer for taking part in conversation and showing interest in my post

 

[vishal_lionheart]

Just to use this video as a case in point. How can that gun ever claim to be "ambidextrous" . ALL new bullpups including the Tavor are sold as that. But just look at the position of the case ejection port. If you were to change your hand you will be eating brass.

There is an option for ejection port in left side also.

 

[rkhanna]

There is an option for ejection port in left side also.

Sirji - You can change the port also under 2 mins with a field strip. My point is - which ever side the port is on you cannot shot from that side because the brass will be hitting your face. Imagine a soldier in Kashmir (right handed - so the port is facing the right side of the gun). He is behind a tree or a boulder and suddenly sees a contact running towards the left side of the boulder. From behind the tree or the boulder he is not going to be able to switch hands on the gun and engage from the left side (left hand) of the tree/boulder. He is invariably going to have to expose his entire body to engage with his right hand on the trigger.

Defacto making the gun not ambidextrous at all.

In a conventional rifle layout - no such issue.

 

[vishal_lionheart]

Sirji - You can change the port also under 2 mins with a field strip. My point is - which ever side the port is on you cannot shot from that side because the brass will be hitting your face. Imagine a soldier in Kashmir (right handed - so the port is facing the right side of the gun). He is behind a tree or a boulder and suddenly sees a contact running towards the left side of the boulder. From behind the tree or the boulder he is not going to be able to switch hands on the gun and engage from the left side (left hand) of the tree/boulder. He is invariably going to have to expose his entire body to engage with his right hand on the trigger.

Defacto making the gun not ambidextrous at all.

In a conventional rifle layout - no such issue.

You are right but IA has chosen both guns ( F90 and Tavor 7 ) are bullpop.