New Assault Rifles for Indian Army

[rkhanna]

If the rifles are imported, then it better be a bull-pup rifle - otherwise it makes very little sense!!!

IMO Actually that will be the single dumbest thing the IA does.

15+yrs of the WOT has shown that the Bullpup makes an inefficient battle rifle for Grunts. The French are already looking to transition out and the British for the politics of it are trying their level best to continiously fix theres.

Fact is that the Bullpups will be a high maintenance rifle (specially the TAVOR) that maybe a bitch to teach line Grunts. And not to forget that its an expensive rifle to repair/replace for all the training wear and tear (even if maide in India.)

But i guess only time will tell.

But my 2 paisa is Keep it Simple Stupid - The AR config (indian or foriegn is irrelavent) offers the best of both worlds) - You can have the same Platform in 10in Barrell for SMG/Compact Carbine/SOF duty, a 14in Barrel for Carbine Duty and a 16inch barrel for your Main Line Assault Rifle. and a 19"/20" for a DMR

Thats why I was silently routing for the LWT

(ps - even with the MCIWS we are still very far from developing a platform like above)

 

[Enquirer]

IMO Actually that will be the single dumbest thing the IA does.

15+yrs of the WOT has shown that the Bullpup makes an inefficient battle rifle for Grunts. The French are already looking to transition out and the British for the politics of it are trying their level best to continiously fix theres.

Fact is that the Bullpups will be a high maintenance rifle (specially the TAVOR) that maybe a bitch to teach line Grunts. And not to forget that its an expensive rifle to repair/replace for all the training wear and tear (even if maide in India.)

But i guess only time will tell.

But my 2 paisa is Keep it Simple Stupid - The AR config (indian or foriegn is irrelavent) offers the best of both worlds) - You can have the same Platform in 10in Barrell for SMG/Compact Carbine/SOF duty, a 14in Barrel for Carbine Duty and a 16inch barrel for your Main Line Assault Rifle. and a 19"/20" for a DMR

Thats why I was silently routing for the LWT

(ps - even with the MCIWS we are still very far from developing a platform like above)

If the first generation of cars didn't perform very well, people should have just abandoned them and stuck to horse carriages??

Famas is not a great design and French are unhappy! That doesn't mean a good design in bull pup config doesn't exist at all!! Chinese have gone all in for bull-pup!
All of the Indian Special Forces use bull pup designs!!

Especially for a (heavy) 7.62x51 caliber, bull-pup design will offer a very convenient way to carry, aim & shoot (even in full auto).

 

[Kay]

If one's pen stop's working during an exam, one doesn't die...But if a unreliable rifle stops working during a gunbattle, the soldier can die......so the above comparison is meaningless.....

Reliability is the most important evaluation criterion of a Service rifle....imported or domestic, doesn't matter....I have always said, there should be comparison trials between the domestic and international brands and let the best rifle win.......

There is not much difference between these rifles as well as well as domestically manufactured ones.
There are two long stroke piston rifles shortlisted and one short stroke - the long stroke ones will be obviously more reliable. If reliability is the only criterion, we can just copy the AK or get the AK and be done with it. The fact is all of these guns will have problem in one test or other. The Pakistani rifle replacement process discussed in the forum gives some insight as to how the tests are done and how stringent they are and how the guns generally fare.
The fact that we go on doing this same discussion again and again in circles is because of the relentless lobbying of weapon manufacturers and army's insatiable desire for imports.

 

[Kay]

Self - delete . Duplicate post.

 

[Raj Malhotra]

MCIWS is based on latest Sig & HK416 and is one of the most advanced Rifles in the world but the army is making all efforts to ignore it

DRDO has not only developed 7.62*51 rifle based on INSAS but another design has been developed based on HK 417

but the army is obstructing further development of this latest design and funds for producing 100 Rifles for testing have been rejected/withheld

 

[rkhanna]

If the first generation of cars didn't perform very well, people should have just abandoned them and stuck to horse carriages??

Famas is not a great design and French are unhappy! That doesn't mean a good design in bull pup config doesn't exist at all!! Chinese have gone all in for bull-pup!
All of the Indian Special Forces use bull pup designs!!

Especially for a (heavy) 7.62x51 caliber, bull-pup design will offer a very convenient way to carry, aim & shoot (even in full auto).

Disregarding your fallacy of argument it seems you missed what I was trying to say.

1. The FAMAS in its current avatar is NOT a first generation bullpup. Same goes for the Brit SA AR.
- THe French are not replacing the FAMAS G2/3 because the rifle is bad - its average - its because their experience of over 2 decades of operating is telling them something - They are replacing it with the HK416N
2 Feedback on the GWOT on militaries have proven that Bullpubs require more training in both Shooting and Maintaince for troops - proving to be not so ideal a weapon for line infantry. (through the Israelis have proved that the TAR is more maintaince friendly than the M4)
3. COST - It will be expensive to replace when parts are damaged or broken in training
4. ALL militaries with Bullpups for Standard AR have their SOF units using AR style config Small Arms
5. The Chinese Q bullpup (a rip off of the FAMAS) is a true POS and not worth mentioning on a small arms thread. PS even the Chinese may end up replacing it with a conventional AR in the future

MCIWS is based on latest Sig & HK416 and is one of the most advanced Rifles in the world but the army is making all efforts to ignore it

DRDO has not only developed 7.62*51 rifle based on INSAS but another design has been developed based on HK 417

but the army is obstructing further development of this latest design and funds for producing 100 Rifles for testing have been rejected/withheld

Do you have a link for the MCIWS is "based" on claim? Keep in mind that the Tata Sumo is "based on" the Mercedes G Wagon. And when HK and SIG have not shared design spec how did DRDO base it on the HK417? If copying deisgns was so easy HKs would be flooding the market

What makes it the most advanced rifle in the world? MOA? Mean Rounds Between Failure? Weight? Barrel Metellurgy? Recoil? What?

Also do you have proof on the Army Obstructing further development of the MCIWS?

 

[rkhanna]

Deleted post

Posted twice by mistake

 

[binayak95]

The amount of misinformation and absolute balderdash being spread on this thread. Just wow. And most of the those pooh poohing the Tavor and hailing the INSAS have probably never handled either gun, and before you ask, yes I have.

Btw, IMI no longer exists. That should open your eyes.

 

[Hari Sud]

C

If one's pen stop's working during an exam, one doesn't die...But if a unreliable rifle stops working during a gunbattle, the soldier can die......so the above comparison is meaningless.....

Reliability is the most important evaluation criterion of a Service rifle....imported or domestic, doesn't matter....I have always said, there should be comparison trials between the domestic and international brands and let the best rifle win.......

Can you count how many American soldiers died because M-16 stopped working during the battle from 1964 -75, until it was modified. Probably none. This is a Colt myth before they bought the Armalite rights. After that they stopped dying.

The point is that paid gun lobby will anything and everything to enhance imports.

 

[Hari Sud]

The criticism of indigenous Rifles is to create a pretext for import of super costly foreign Rifles There is no major difference in the performance of foreign Rifles and Indigenous Rifles
Anyone can go on the net and see that most of the imported or proposed imported rifle also suffered the same problems attributed to the indigenous Rifles
The only important feature of the foreign rifle is that it is 10 times more costly than an indigenous rifle
further the intent is to import the foreign rifle along with certain unspecified sights and scopes which would mean that the deal would be worth almost rupees 10000 crore for the Rifles, ammu, production plant, spares, along with sights and scopes etc
So the import of around one lakh rifles would be equalent to the indigenous manufacture of 5 million Rifles
no wonder all the import dalals and corrupt journalist are pushing for imports
Most of the posters here are Patriots and Nationalists therefore it is our duty to look through paper propaganda and try to find the real facts

Well said...... Our arms import department and its head honchos are in league with the import lobby.

 

[sthf]

Will this circle jerking ever stop? I am sick and tired of this never ending bullshit and blatant hypocrisy. Soldiers should die because some people have too much ego tied to a shitty rifle.

To all the die hard "patriots" who love India so so much can take a look around in your own home and please tell me how many things you own were manufactured by the government.

No seriously, I am not even kidding. Are your electronics sarkari, are your medicines? You won't even step a foot in a sarkari hospital unless its AIIMS or equivalent and you have no other option.

When was the last time you looked at your Japanese, Korean, German or even Indian car and said to yourself "You know what would made this car better, if it had been designed & manufactured by the hard working sons of soil sarkari babus".

Hell yeah, OFB and BEML made cars for everyone. Screw Ze Germans, we are patriots.

 

[Kay]

Everytime the counter argument seems to be lives of soldiers are paramount and hence they must be given foreign rifles. As if countries which provide indegeneous rifles to their soldiers value their soldiers' lives any less. All this while 400 soldiers have committed suicide in the last 4 years and officers have until recently used soldiers for their menial household jobs.
1600 soldiers does every year of ailments, suicide and accidents. We are averse to provide OROP for all our combatants.
These people do not shy from using soldiers to push profit and sales - even when the rifles they push never pass trials in Indian conditions. This is hypocrisy at best, treason at worst.

 

[Kay]

Not all our solfsold have bullet proof jackets, mine protected shoes or modern bullet proof shoes. But foreign rifles are a priority for these lobbysts and many in the army in the pockets of these lobbysts - even when using one rifle over other will give us zero advantage in an actual war.
These hypocritical pseudo-patriots exploiting the plight of soldiers to make money out of Indian taxpayers money should be countered and called out.

 

[sthf]

More platitudes from people with no skin in the game.

Wake me up when someone decides that OFB and BEML should make their cars and not Suzuki or Mahindra.

 

[sthf]

Suits the topic perfectly.

 

[devhensh]

C



Can you count how many American soldiers died because M-16 stopped working during the battle from 1964 -75, until it was modified. Probably none. This is a Colt myth before they bought the Armalite rights. After that they stopped dying.

The point is that paid gun lobby will anything and everything to enhance imports.

So as per your logic, since no soldier ever died becuase of an unreliable rifle, reliability is not important in a service rifle ??? Sadly, military experts all over the world will tell you, that reliability is the MOST important criterion of choosing a Service Weapon...but there are lots of other criterions too....

Also, i don't give a dime, about what the Import Lobby or Desi Lobby says (if they exist)....To me, what is paramount, is that the Indian soldier gets the most modern/effective and most reliable Service rifle....I am not against an Indian rifle if it beats the foriegn rifles....that is why i have stated n number of times (in this Forum) that there should be comparison trials between the Indian and foreign rifle and the best platform be chosen....

Lastly, to answer your first question.....Yes, lots of American soldiers were killed because of initial batches of unreliable M16 rifle and ammunition combo, during Vietnam war....heard it first hand from Veterans....a little search yourself, would have shown it to you....
Just one screenshot below, from many articles

 

[Enquirer]

So as per your logic, since no soldier ever died becuase of an unreliable rifle, reliability is not important in a service rifle ??? Sadly, military experts all over the world will tell you, that reliability is the MOST important criterion of choosing a Service Weapon...but there are lots of other criterions too....

Also, i don't give a dime, about what the Import Lobby or Desi Lobby says (if they exist)....To me, what is paramount, is that the Indian soldier gets the most modern/effective and most reliable Service rifle....I am not against an Indian rifle if it beats the foriegn rifles....that is why i have stated n number of times (in this Forum) that there should be comparison trials between the Indian and foreign rifle and the best platform be chosen....

Lastly, to answer your first question.....Yes, lots of American soldiers were killed becuase of initial batches of unreliable M16 rifle and ammunition combo, during Vietnam war....heard it first hand from Veterans....a little search yourself, would have shown it to you....
View attachment 27189

@Hari Sud
Every Vietnam veteran (that one can still talk to) will vouch for how awesome AK47s were, and still wish they had AKs instead of the then M16s

 

[vishal_lionheart]

IA finalized
F90 , Caracal and Tavor 7

 

[ezsasa]

for all those saying Tavor 7... How is that possible, when RFI was for 5.56 X 45?
7.62 x 51 assault rifle is a different RFI.

 

[Jackd]

IA finalized
F90 , Caracal and Tavor 7

F90 carbine version only and not ar version will be made in India in partnership with Mku.