New Assault Rifles for Indian Army

[abingdonboy]

Stage is all set for a new logistic nightmare for those in the front.

These aren’t fighter jets, logistical issues aren’t as big of an issue and I’m sure the contracts with the OEMs include a complete support package with plenty of spares.

Unlike the Russians these global OEMs won’t want to upset the users or harm their brands so will be working to keep things in check.

the only thing I hope for is regardless of the origin or type all these small arms get standard sights and other accessories. Don’t launch separate tenders for each one.

 

[piKacHHu]

Good watch

Knew it was designed by a guy from HK that designed the 416, didn’t know he and another guy worked on the 516 and 716 at SIG.

816 is the ultimate evolution of the AR15 design, probably the best rifle on the planet today.


716 and 816 are actually pretty logical choices by the IA then- the best 7.62 and 5.56 NATO rifles money can buy today


But I still have 2 issues

1) what comes next? The 90K 816 aren’t enough for the entire carbine requirement so will there be a repeat order or will they go for an entirely different rifle? INSAS MK1C?

2) what Caracal has done (their history is only about 16 years old and is covered in the first few mins of the vid) could easily have been done in India. It’s not rocket science but instead for the next 20++ years the entire Indian army small arms inventory will be imported which is utterly tragic for a country that will be the 2nd largest economy at that time

1. In routine tenders, Repeat order is a certainty provided it performs well in the field. Usually, clauses are inserted to contain the price escalation in repeat orders ( quantities are usually restricted up to 40-50% of original PO) . For FTP, I believe same tradition will be followed.
2. Lets hope the CAR 816 chosen in carbine tender is the same as highlighted in the marketing videos. Now it's a fairly possible (as happened with SIG) that Caracal might have pitched a brand new line of DI based carbine to win the price war.
( Given the earlier objection of some committee members regarding price of Carbine being more than the SIG battle rifle, either they are complete idiot who failed to see the difference in loading mechanism ( DI vs Short stroke) in similar AR style platform or the CAR 816 on offer is itself based on DI that adds more credence to their objection. My assumption is discounting the cost difference that may arise due to the barrel size but what I would like to highlight is that our presumption related to the CAR 816 that we are getting could be very much wrong!
Kudos to our so called defence experts in media as well as veteran panelists of RSTV, none had slightest idea that the SIG 716 that IA is getting is quite different than G2 patrol. All they know is AK based firearms are reliable as hell in Indian conditions, and INSAS is quite the opposite without delving into technical reasoning behind their argument.)
3. For logistics part, I feel it is more to do with ammo part which we are manufacturing anyway in the present setting ( 7.62 as well as 5.56). For spares and other accessories, that could be managed by the units by utilising their own budgets for maintenance. A rifle is not a tank and their maintenance is not that expensive.

 

[WolfPack86]

India’s AK – Not Quite an AK-203

For years we at TFB have closely followed India’s struggles to select a new service rifle to replace the 5.56x45mm INSAS which has gained a questionable reputation over the years. Numerous home-grown rifles such as the Indian Ordnance Factories Board-designed Excalibur and the Multi Calibre Individual Weapon System have both proven to be failures.



A glimmer of hope arrived when the Indian government made a concerted effort to procure new small arms launching a flurry of requests for information seeking a range of rifles in 7.62x39mm, 5.56x45mm and 7.62x51mm. At the same time, India have also procured .50 calibre anti-materiel rifles and .338 LM precision rifles in significant numbers.


It has since emerged that Russia’s Kalashnikov Concern and the Indian government have been engaged in negotiations for licensed manufacture of a version of Kalashnikov’s modernised AK-203 to be produced in Indian factories – as a part of the country’s Made In India defence procurement initiative. With a potential order for 750,000 rifles, the scope of the contract is huge with a potential cost reported in 2018 of $2.5 billion. While the Indian government appeared to announce the agreement 12 months ago we have been waiting patiently for further news on the signing of a contract for production of the new rifles.


INDIA’S AK-203
Despite uncertainty around when a contract might be finalised we now have our first look at what the Indian soldier might eventually be issued and it is not a stock AK-203 as has widely been assumed. In fact, the rifle has been adapted to Indian requests and has a number of significant and somewhat surprising differences. These photos were taken at the Indo-Russia Rifles booth at the recent DEFEXPO 2020 in Lucknow in Uttar Pradesh, India. Indo Rifles is a joint concern with 50-50 ownership split between India’s state Ordnance Factory Board and Russia’s Kalashnikov Concern/Rosoboronexport.

Indian AK-203 (right side)

At a glance, you may not notice that the Indian AK-203 is a combination of features taken from the AK-203 and less refined and cheaper AK-103. Let’s compare the three rifles and see which features the Indian AK-203 has combined.

Check out Kalashnikov Concerns video demonstrating their stock AK-203,

AK-103 – left side – (Kalashnikov Concern)

Russian AK-203 (left side)

From the photos of the AK-103 and AK-203 above we can see that the Indian rifle has retained the 203’s railed top cover, contoured ergonomic pistol grip and its muzzle device. However, it has not opted for the Russian 203’s adjustable but stock, instead opting for the simpler AK-103 folding stock and handguard (with no top rail).

Indian AK-203, displayed at the Indo Rifles booth at DEFEXPO 2020 (left side)


The primary, non-ergonomic, upgrades of Kalashnikov Concern’s AK-203 include an improved barrel with tighter tolerances and a top cover which is held more firmly in place by a locking lever – allowing simpler and more stable optics mounting (without the need for a side mount). If we compare the three rifles again and look at their right sides we see that the Indian 203 has retained this system. The rifle’s receiver also remains AK-203 marked

AK-103 – right side – (Kalashnikov Concern)

Russian AK-200, in 5.45×39, but externally identical to the 203 (right side)


Below we can see that the Indian rifle has opted to retain the railed top cover and locking lever system but has the AK-103’s more traditional style of selector lever, which lacks the Russian 203’s finger tab for easier manipulation without moving the right hand too far off the pistol grip.

Indian AK-203, displayed at the Indo Rifles booth at DEFEXPO 2020 (right side)


The reasons for these design specification changes are unclear, perhaps for manufacturing simplicity, or cost saving or perhaps the changes are driven by doctrine or manual of arms driven choices. Regardless of the changes made to the rifle, the AK-203 represents a step up, from the current INSAS, which Indian soldiers will welcome enthusiastically. This incarnation of India’s AK may not be the one which enters production, we will have to wait a little longer for confirmation of this spec and the contract for 750,000 rifles.
https://idrw.org/indias-ak-not-quite-an-ak-203/#more-224907

 

[WolfPack86]

Why The AK-203 Might Be The Deadliest Assault Rifle On Planet Earth
From air defence systems to nuclear submarines, the Soviet Union has enjoyed a longstanding, profitable defence export relationship with India. However, both the USSR and its Russian successor state have historically struggled to break into the Indian small arms market.

After decades of impasse, it appears that the Kremlin has found a solution in the form of Kalashnikov’s new AK-203 rifle.

Last year, Russian President Vladimir Putin and Prime Minister Narendra Modi inaugurated a new, jointly-administered AK-203 production venture at the Korwa small arms production plant in North Eastern India.


President Putin greeted the occasion with a celebratory telegram, stressing the ways in which Russian defence technology complements India’s national security interests: “The new joint venture will manufacture world-famous Kalashnikov assault rifles of the newest 200 series and eventually will reach full localization of production. Thus, the Indian defence-industrial sector will have the opportunity to fulfil the needs of national security agencies in this category of small arms, resting upon advanced Russian technologies.”

The Kalashnikov venture marks the end of New Delhi’s long, tortured search for a successor to the unreliable INSAS rifle that has served as the mainstay of the Indian armed forces since 1998. The AK-203, a 7.62х39 export variant of Kalashnikov new AK-12, boasts across-the-board performance improvements as compared with its INSAS counterpart.

The AK-203 eschews the infamous jamming and temperature operability problems plaguing the INSAS rifle, while boasting superior a lighter weight, shorter length, and modern assault rifle ergonomics. The latter includes polymer handguards, a picatinny rail, and an adjustable buttstock; while individually negligible, these features add up to an overall improved handling experience.

But the deal, signed for a whopping 750,000 AK-203 rifles with 40,000 to be directly imported, is no less significant from the perspective of the Russian arms export business. Would it have been more profitable in the short term to simply sell India 750,000 AK-203’s? Perhaps, but Rosoboronexport– Russia’s official defence exporting agency– hopes that this deal will give Kalashnikov a foothold in the Indian firearms industry for decades to come.

As Rosobornexport CEO Alexander Mikheev points out, the AK-203 is just the speartip of Kalashnikov’s plans for the Indian market: “The capacity of the plant is sufficient to arm the personnel of all security agencies in India.
https://www.defencenews.in/article/...eadliest-Assault-Rifle-On-Planet-Earth-830090

 

[Aaj ka hero]

The latter includes polymer handguards, a picatinny rail, and an adjustable buttstock; while individually negligible, these features add up to an overall improved handling experience.

Dude, this is the so called armchairs military nuts.
Unlike here where it is debated, why the heck army don't want indigenous? All of these were offered on insas and it's family but noooo and now these armchair guys are saying "well this was the point to be true why insas failed", again and again same thing.

 

[heman]

why are you wasting your money its almost AK 47 , instead of wood its just plastic.

 

[Illusive]

Dude, this is the so called armchairs military nuts.
Unlike here where it is debated, why the heck army don't want indigenous? All of these were offered on insas and it's family but noooo and now these armchair guys are saying "well this was the point to be true why insas failed", again and again same thing.

We should really call it AK 420.

 

[heman]

We should really call it AK 420.

It's half true. INSAS has a lot of issues it's true, apart from quality related issues , its bullets were not made to kill an enamy from a distance , buddy soilder s would be busy taking care of injured souilder. 5.5mm is an old concept now. Reliability related issues Ak 203 was a good choice but not the stock one is a bad decision. This is shame.

 

[sorcerer]

Punj Lloyd’s plant nearly operational to produce IWI’s small arms
As Ganga Saran, Manager – Defence of PLR Systems, explained to Army Recognition on Thursday 12 April, Punj Lloyd and Israel Weapon Industries (IWI) have jointly set up a manufacturing facility in Malanpur (India) to produce small arms and ammunition. The plant is nearly operational.

Indian special forces already use IWI’s Tavor assault rifle. This is a one-way relation. On the other way, Punj Lloyd already exports key parts to Israel, and is about to produce its own X95 assault rifle, a totally made-in-India weapon.

Independently from the partnership with IWI, other armament contracts with the Indian governement are subject to a harsh competition, namely for acquiring 61 advanced air defence gun systems. Punj Lloyd is a serious contender. And the light-weight 155mm howitzer produced by the Ordnance Factory Board (called “Danush”) is a key programme: out of the 11 components given to the private sector by OFB, eight are manufactured by Punj Lloyd.

The company has a wider array of products on the market, like land systems, aerospace and homeland security devices. It is still providing upgrade solutions for air defence and artillery.

Punj Lloyd’s plant nearly operational to produce IWI’s small arms | DefExpo 2018 India News Show Daily | Defence security military exhibition 2018 daily news category

Punj Lloyd and Israel Weapon Industries (IWI) have jointly set up a manufacturing facility in Malanpur to produce small arms and ammunition. The plant is nearly operational

www.armyrecognition.com

 

[Bhadra]

Punj Lloyd’s plant nearly operational to produce IWI’s small arms
As Ganga Saran, Manager – Defence of PLR Systems, explained to Army Recognition on Thursday 12 April, Punj Lloyd and Israel Weapon Industries (IWI) have jointly set up a manufacturing facility in Malanpur (India) to produce small arms and ammunition. The plant is nearly operational.

Indian special forces already use IWI’s Tavor assault rifle. This is a one-way relation. On the other way, Punj Lloyd already exports key parts to Israel, and is about to produce its own X95 assault rifle, a totally made-in-India weapon.

Independently from the partnership with IWI, other armament contracts with the Indian governement are subject to a harsh competition, namely for acquiring 61 advanced air defence gun systems. Punj Lloyd is a serious contender. And the light-weight 155mm howitzer produced by the Ordnance Factory Board (called “Danush”) is a key programme: out of the 11 components given to the private sector by OFB, eight are manufactured by Punj Lloyd.

The company has a wider array of products on the market, like land systems, aerospace and homeland security devices. It is still providing upgrade solutions for air defence and artillery.

Punj Lloyd’s plant nearly operational to produce IWI’s small arms | DefExpo 2018 India News Show Daily | Defence security military exhibition 2018 daily news category

Punj Lloyd and Israel Weapon Industries (IWI) have jointly set up a manufacturing facility in Malanpur to produce small arms and ammunition. The plant is nearly operational

www.armyrecognition.com

Hello, Is Dhanush a lightweight 155mm How system....??? I thought is 13 tons heavy ????

Punj Lyod is a financial sick joint and the very survivability of the company is under serious doubts...

 

[Bhadra]

Dude, this is the so called armchairs military nuts.
Unlike here where it is debated, why the heck army don't want indigenous? All of these were offered on insas and it's family but noooo and now these armchair guys are saying "well this was the point to be true why insas failed", again and again same thing.

All over the world people who use AK family are idiiots and all those armies who threw back INSAS at India are also idiots.. leave aside Indian Forces.

You are the only wise man left on earth..... Armchair you siad. I wish I could put you in front of a Pakistani terrorist having a UBGL attached AK in his hands but INSAS in your hands.

mod edit: flamebaits removed

 

[sorcerer]

Hello, Is Dhanush a lightweight 155mm How system....??? I thought is 13 tons heavy ????

Punj Lyod is a financial sick joint and the very survivability of the company is under serious doubts...

Errm.. I agree
But Punju boi has said..he wana buy back the company and is trying hard to get it back to roll.
secondly..punju boi has landed a financial restructuring company in India and some US people to fund its revival.
Punj Lloyd has got a breathing space to make their plans cuz of lockdown..
lets see if Punj lloyd can survive it and turn things around.

On a side note..Punj lloyd at one time was in the class with L&T in the stock market.. its got some experience behind it. Hope it survives and makes a come back.

 

[WolfPack86]

Final Contract for AK-203 Assault Rifle Set to Be Finalised Shortly - Top Indian Defence Official
Russian assault rifles will replace the country’s home-made and outdated INSAS rifle. The Indian Army has previously made several attempts to replace the rifle but failed.

India and Russia are set to sign the final commercial contract for the purchase of the AK-203 assault rifle soon with all price issues now finalised, according to an Indian Army official.

“Most of the contentious issues are resolved. We will decide on price bid very shortly,” the official who wished to remain unidentified told Sputnik on Thursday.
Indo-Russia Rifles Limited, established between the Ordnance Factory Board (OFB), the Kalashnikov Concern and Rosoboronexport — the Russian state agency for military exports — will manufacture the 7.62×39 mm Russian weapon at the Korwa Ordnance Factory in Uttar Pradesh. Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi inaugurated the facility last March.


The official said the infantry division has identified a total requirement of 670,000 AK-203 rifles for the army including 100,000 imports while the rest will be manufactured at the Indian facility.

“There will be certain numbers which will come as semi knocked down kits and subsequently we will looking at developing weapons here in India both for the indigenous requirement within India as also with the capability to export them subsequently,” Major General J.S. Sandhu, chief of Infantry, Indian Army, said.
Sandhu said there is a transfer of technology incorporated in the deal and it is expected that a large part of the requirement will be fulfilled by manufacturing rifles in India.

Each rifle is expected to cost around $1,100 which includes the cost of technology transfer and of setting up the manufacturing unit.

Last March, Modi said the AK-203 rifles will help the country's security forces fight militants in counter-terror operations.

The AK-203 is the latest and most advanced version of the AK-47 rifle which will replace INSAS. Indian security personnel had often complained in the past of jamming, magazine cracking etc. at higher altitudes in the Himalayas.

Defencenews.in

 

[samsaptaka]

Why is this not being reconsidered as per the ”think local” policy ?
Not a word by N Sitaraman on this ! This can very easily be a make at home product, ex- SSSdefence. Its not rocket science to make an assault rifle, just needs hard work and coordination between army & pvt industry! I really wish this corrupt deal is canceled and army forced to acquire from SSS defence . Not OFB though! Those bastard should be blacklisted!

 

[Anikastha]

Why is this not being reconsidered as per the ”think local” policy ?
Not a word by N Sitaraman on this ! This can very easily be a make at home product, ex- SSSdefence. Its not rocket science to make an assault rifle, just needs hard work and coordination between army & pvt industry! I really wish this corrupt deal is canceled and army forced to acquire from SSS defence . Not OFB though! Those bastard should be blacklisted!

all hell may come down to earth...but army will not give up imports....ofb will always b preferred over sss ....this babudom will screw us really hard in coming up future....keep watch

 

[arkos]

1) what comes next? The 90K 816 aren’t enough for the entire carbine requirement so will there be a repeat order or will they go for an entirely different rifle? INSAS MK1C?

Is JVPC viable as a CQB weapon ? I remember seeing a poster from defence expo which showed JVPC Alpha. Is it some upgraded/ improved version ? Carbine requirement is around 200000 units.

 

[WolfPack86]

• Rifle Factory Ishapore has been made the nodal factory for the development of 7.62x51mm Assault Rifle as per the latest requirement of Indian Army. ARDE has also been associated in this project. Accordingly, the work project is being carried out at this factory. 50 Nos. 7.62x51mm Assault Rifles with RFI design have already been assembled and test fired at RFI range with very much satisfactory result. As decided during 6th PMT meeting, 30 Nos. more Rifles to be manufactured afresh. These rifles are now under manufacturing. Simultaneously, components are also under manufacturing with ARDE Design.
• Rifle Factory Ishapore successfully developed 5.56mm Assault Rifle/INSAS 1C. The Rifle has been appreciated by various Army as well as MHA units. RFI is now receiving orders for this weapon from various agencies under MHA.
• Rifle Factory Ishapore has also developed 7.62mm Sniper Rifle. The Rifle is now under regular production as order for the same has also being received from agencies of MHA.
• Moreover, initiatives have been taken for developing Rifles & Pistol through Transfer Of Technology (TOT) from foreign weapon manufacturers. In this process Expression Of Interest (EOI) has been floated for development of 7.62x51mm Assault Rifle, 7.62x39mm Assault Rifle, 8.6mm Sniper Rifle & 9mm Pistol. Recently, M/s IWI has carried out firing demonstration of their offered weapon of 7.62x51mm caliber as a part of foreign collaboration.
• New IRD Project has been taken on CQB Carbine, under OFB sanction. Simultaneously manufacturing of components under progress. 02 Prototypes are almost ready.

https://ofb.gov.in/unit/pages/RFI/r-d-center

 

[WolfPack86]

Along with these four count Astr Defence too. Plus in Public Sector, ARDE new platforms too are good. Especially the 6.8*43 mm AAR . Question is how we do proceed , and if we do even want to proceed with indigenous platforms.

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

I think peference should go to SSS defence, especially the snipers and 7.62*39 mm P-72 rifle. For 5.56*45 and 6.8*43 OFB design look good. Astr is promising design, but very little is known about their company. I heard they are a small start-up in Hubli, Karnataka, but nothing else is known and their production capacity is doubtful. Other companies in the list are are foreign products re-brandred as desi as part of Make in India scheme.

 

[Bleh]

There are lots of desi private/public options in DMR, sniper & assault rifles, carbine, even a battle rifle (too late though due to the Sig-716 deal).
But real question is whether these Astr Defence or SSS Defence products even in trials, or after Defexpo the Indian Army simply showed them the finger like this?..

Who asked them to make that ????

As of latest top news there's still pushing hards after their daddy's vintage Ak-103 (it's not fucking 203).