MTA Program by UAC/HAL

[The enlightened]

where they

IAF doesn't float tenders MoD does. This too is a G2G deal.

 

[Indian Storm]

@spikey360, I think with the Indo-Russian join ventures being mainly Russian as far as technical contribution goes, I doubt how much India can have a say. India wants to get a bigger share and greater say, and this is perhaps motivated by the will to learn more, but Russia wouldn't want to create a competitor. This, I think, indicates that India is seen as capable of defence production.

IAF was indeed insane when they chose the CH-47 over the Mil-26T2 as a heavy lifter (as a heavy lifter, repeated for emphasis). The former can never be a substitute for the latter. That deal looked like politically motivated. Now, we have only one operational, with about 100 hours left.

Many deals have been politically motivated like the plans to award Reliance to make ka 226 helis. Anil ambani afterall has poured billions of rupees in BJP's ad campaign.
Similarly why do you think Anil Ambani is pouring billions of dollars in ship building infrastructure if he doesnot expect returns and orders?
http://www.telegraphindia.com/1151230/jsp/frontpage/story_61130.jsp
But choosing Chinook was a good option. Chinook is a multipurpose type of heli like mi 17 v5 even better, Yes it may not compete with mi26 in lifting capability but the use of mi26 is very limited as maintainance issues were very high.

 

[Nuvneet Kundu]

@pmaitra "IAF was indeed insane when they chose the CH-47 over the Mil-26T2 as a heavy lifter (as a heavy lifter, repeated for emphasis). "

Agree with everything you said. I believe it wasn't a technical call but a courtesy call to get Obama's attention. Ya know? like you pay tribute "hafta vasooli" to the gang lord at the gates if you seek an appointment with him. This might have been a pre-condition that US set in order to grant us, well, whatever it is they granted us during the 26 January fiasco. After all, even Obama is a politician, and even his political campaign is funded by private donors, some of whom are defense industry folks. He is obliged to lobby for them everywhere they go. The Chinook purchase seems like that case of "hafta vasooli" to me.

There are some actual critical technologies like the M777 which we want but the US is treating us like dogs since 5 years. First they give a price, then they suddenly increase it, when we agree to pay that, they claim that their factory is shut down, then they again agree to start the factory. Lots of drama surrounding this particular system which is seen as critical to India's mountain strike core. They are increasing the price to humiliate us. But they're happy to sell, and pressurize us to buy shit that we dont need, like Chinook. Honestly, I see it as a courtesy purchase. IDK what's the status of that M777 thingy.

 

[Indian Storm]

@pmaitra Nothing wrong with C130 per se. It is a very capable platform, I am sure. However, what is the point in antagonizing Russia by first starting a joint project and then stopping it?

It is certainly not a business like behaviour. It is neither a friendly behaviour. Then what is it, if not antagonising.
Going to a fish market, buying a fish and then complaining it does not have four eyes and accusing the seller of fraud is certainly not a sane behaviour.

Exactly my friend.
If today we are dependent on foreign supplies the miiitary complex is much to blame for example take the case of Arjun tank. Army kept changing its demands through entire designing phase they first asked for a 120mm gun then for a 125mm gun then a rifled gun and then again a smoothbore one.
Same problem goes for artillery, MBRL and even helis.
I am sure Air Force also has the same problem of not being able to come up what they exactly want. I mean what was wrong with this plane? Russia is going to go ahead with it. when it comes to PAK FA they are saying Russia has reduced the numbers (without taking into account that they are still buying PAK FA only not any other plane) but I just want to know what was wrong with this one??

 

[sorcerer]

PS90 is reliable engine, IAF’s FADEC requirement came midway for MTA Project: UAC President

Breaking his silence on stalled Indo-Russian Medium Transport Aircraft (MTA) project due to issues related to choice of engine envisaged to power the aircraft, UAC Chief Yuri Slyusar confirmed that Full authority digital engine (or electronics) control (FADEC) system is not available on Aviadvigatel PS-90 turbofan engine as asked by Indian Air force and also informed that IAF’s requirement for FADEC was added midway and was never part of initial requirements .

Preliminary design for the MTA was completed nearly 3 years ago but has been stuck due to difference emerging on the choice of engine to power the aircraft. Slyusar confirmed that UAC was asked by Indian Air force to search for an alternative engine but they were unable to find one which meets four major criteria in engine performance asked by IAF.

idrw.org in the past had reported that Russian and HAL team have met to find solutions to the deadlock but IAF is holding its ground and is adamant that engines for MTA transporter should have FADEC system requirements but Slyusar has questioned IAF’s demand and pointed out the engine in question has extensively used across civilian and military platforms across Russia and argued that no one should question performance or reliability of the engine since even Russian Presidental aircraft is powered by same engines .

Slyusar also added that if the engine issued is sorted soon and matter resolved with IAF/HAL, work on the first Prototype can be done rapidly. Defence Analyst Ranesh Rajan close to idrw.org feels that IAF might be actually interested in integration on FADEC system equipped engines from Western OEM which Russians are not agreeing to do leading to the whole project going in the backburner lately.

FADEC system in engine basically means that an ECU (Engine Control Unit – digital computer) controls all aspects of the engine performance and decides on the amount of fuel it injects into the inlet ports as well as the exact timing of the spark advance. FADEC has no form of manual override available, placing full authority over the operating parameters of the engine in the hands of the computer.

Not only FADEC system provides optimum engine efficiency for a given flight condition and helps users receive engine health and maintenance reports leading to the better serviceability of the aircraft. But the failure of FADEC means certain engine failure and recent crash of Airbus A-400M was attributed to complex engine software which crashed on that ill flight leading to engine failure killing its 4 crew.


http://idrw.org/ps90-is-reliable-en...way-for-mta-project-uac-president/#more-89884

 

[garg_bharat]

This is happening because there is no proper procurement agency. Procurement and planning processes are immature and adhoc. Too many views and too many ego clashes.

I think it is proper for Russia to go alone. Russia needs the planes more than India. India is buying C-130 now and can order more.

 

[Superdefender]

Why not make a JV between HAL & AIRBUS of France to make a MTA?

 

[Gessler]

Why not make a JV between HAL & AIRBUS of France to make a MTA?

We can, but too late for that now. Unless we base it off an existing design.

If MTA doesn't work out (either Russia needs to have a FADEC-equipped engine ready, or we need to change up the requirements), then it's most likely that IAF will request for the C-130J. Tata can expand it's existing component-manufacturing business for 130s into a full fledged production line. Plus IAF already operates Hercules versions, so less time is lost getting used to it.

In my opinion, the MTA might as well be dropped. UAC/Ilyushin won't go with a FADEC-equipped engine unless the major customer (RusAF) wants it, but their Air Force is happy with the non-FADEC engines.

IAF on the other hand will not accept it without FADEC as we are looking to get ourselves more in line with Western aviation standards.

 

[garg_bharat]

Why not make a JV between HAL & AIRBUS of France to make a MTA?

Because everything with France costs a bundle of money and MOD has limited budget.

The MTA was supposed to be developed on a budget of just 600M. Russians are absolutely 100% correct that a new engine cannot be developed within this budget.

I think some people are intentionally messing up with this project to support import of more units of C130.

 

[garg_bharat]

We can, but too late for that now. Unless we base it off an existing design.

If MTA doesn't work out (either Russia needs to have a FADEC-equipped engine ready, or we need to change up the requirements), then it's most likely that IAF will request for the C-130J. Tata can expand it's existing component-manufacturing business for 130s into a full fledged production line. Plus IAF already operates Hercules versions, so less time is lost getting used to it.

In my opinion, the MTA might as well be dropped. UAC/Ilyushin won't go with a FADEC-equipped engine unless the major customer (RusAF) wants it, but their Air Force is happy with the non-FADEC engines.

IAF on the other hand will not accept it without FADEC as we are looking to get ourselves more in line with Western aviation standards.

Russians need the planes now. They have no time to develop a new engine. You need to factor that Antonov bureau is dead. This creates support problems for Antonov planes.

Also the money committed to MTA does not cover the new engine.

 

[garg_bharat]

India lived without 20_t class transports for decades, so clearly IAF does not feel a strong need.

11 Hercules are there to take care of north east.

 

[Gessler]

I think some people are intentionally messing up with this project to support import of more units of C130.

It serves to be discerning instead of pretending to smell conspiracy in everything.

Quoting analyst Prasun K. Sengupta on the matter;

" When the ASQR for the IL-214 MRTA was framed, it included the development of a turbofan. At that time, the IAF had ASSUMED that the turbofan would have FADEC, but this wasn’t mentioned in the joint R & D contract. Now the Ruskies are saying that a version of the PS-90A engine will suffice, but this engine doesn’t have FADEC. The IAF on the other hand under a revised ASQR wants a FADEC-equipped turbofan solution. The best solution will therefore be to power the IL-214 MRTA with CFM56 turbofans, just as the Ruskies had consented earlier for export IL-76MDs & IL-78s to be powered by CFM56 engines. But accepting turbofans without FADEC is not a choice. It’s like asking one to buy an automobile with carburetor, instead of direct fuel-injection. "

Taking all the given suggestions into account, one can safely deduce one of two possible ways to go from there.

1) Request for different engines on Indian MTAs (which I already mentioned in my previous post). But the additional cost will have to be paid entirely by India because RusAF does not want any FADEC-equipped engine. Which third-party engine to select can be decided through a competitive bidding process, or a direct G2G deal is needed.

2) If the said process is deemed too tedious or unnecessary (it will take quite a lot of additional time to validate the plane with new engines) and if IAF wants a replacement for An-32s ASAP (the upgrade program for those planes was also abandoned halfway through, thanks to Crimean crisis), then it serves to order additional numbers of an aircraft-type which we already operate and are therefore familiar with. The C-130J.

Simple as that.

 

[garg_bharat]

I think india should buy some more il76. The new version carries 60t.

MTA can be done away with.

 

[Gessler]

India lived without 20_t class transports for decades, so clearly IAF does not feel a strong need.

11 Hercules are there to take care of north east.

The C-130J-30 planes we currently operate (even the additional six) are intended mostly for Special Forces use, not for menial transport duties, it's not a major role.

IAF was cool for a time because the An-32 upgrade was coming along nicely. Now that program was stopped abruptly and HAL is wondering if it can upgrade them in-house or not.

In short, it serves to think ahead to plan for all eventualities given current situation.

 

[garg_bharat]

@Gessler, Russia is correct in their stand.

Nobody will develop a 'new' turbofan for a low volume plane. It is against commonsense.

If india is keen on cfm56, then india can do this integration at HAL. Why burden Russians with it.

 

[garg_bharat]

Why India starts such joint projects with little thought and little advance planning? Remember we are wasting not only our time (which we do not value) but also other party's time.

 

[garg_bharat]

I think Russia can no longer fit western equipment in the sanctions environment.

The khichdi products will have to be done locally.

Yes india can order more c130, but everybody knows how long that will take. And our industry learns nothing.

 

[garg_bharat]

The C-130J-30 planes we currently operate (even the additional six) are intended mostly for Special Forces use, not for menial transport duties, it's not a major role.

IAF was cool for a time because the An-32 upgrade was coming along nicely. Now that program was stopped abruptly and HAL is wondering if it can upgrade them in-house or not.

In short, it serves to think ahead to plan for all eventualities given current situation.

How can iaf rely on an32. Budhiya par kitni lipstick lagaoge?

 

[Nuvneet Kundu]

Why not make a JV between HAL & AIRBUS of France to make a MTA?

I think we did that with EADS CASA C-295, but it's based off an existing design as @Gessler said. No R&D. Probably a make in India project.

 

[Gessler]

@Gessler, Russia is correct in their stand.

Absolutely.

If india is keen on cfm56, then india can do this integration at HAL. Why burden Russians with it.

It has been what, 3 to 4 years since MTA was brought up? Till date there is zero progress on the plane for India.

Personally I would keep HAL away at any given opportunity. They are a delay-making machine.

If at all local integration & manufacturing has to take place (by no means is that easy or will be done quickly, not with HAL), then why not give TATA the opportunity to locally manufacture C-130Js instead? Tata already makes several critical components of the plane like Center Wing Box (CWB) assembly, tailfin, horizontal stabilizers etc. and can easily expand it's facilities for full-scale production in partnership with Lockheed Martin.

Besides, they already are getting the contracts for building Airbus C-295W turboprop transports locally. That means MoD or IAF have no qualms about their capabilities.

We already have a significant level of C130-supporting infrastructure in country and it's always a good idea to improve & expand existing aircraft-types rather than go for entirely new ones.

And make no mistake, we are not learning ANYTHING from MTA production that we won't learn from C-130J production. In both cases, we would only be given enough knowledge/know-how as necessary to locally produce the said plane. Nothing more. The difference is that with MTA, we would be a part of the program and would be funding it's development OUT OF OUR INTEREST. None of the core IPRs will be shared, rest assured.

The only reason why Russia approached India for the project was to share the financial burden. Even if we hadn't accepted, Russia would have gone alone with the project. Like what happened with the early PAK-FA concepts. Don't know if you know about that story or not.