Modernisation of Indian Army Infantry

[shade]

Oh i forgot to mention,
there was also a thing that मादर Rossiya was UNHAPPY with us for "copying" AK,
remember the time when Mikhail Kalashnikov came here to visit certain defence exhibition, saw OFB made copies in their stall and lost his marbals over it ?
Rossiya never moved away of that protest against illegal copying (lol) of their rifle.

So this AK-203 (?) deal is also made to *ahem* pacify Rossiyans regarding that copying

CYKA BLYAT INDISKI ONLY KHITANS HAVE LICENSIY TO COPYOV OUR EQUIPMENTS! YOU IS SUPPOSED TO BE GOOD BOY, DON'T BE SVOLOCH!

 

[samsaptaka]

Fellow members keep reminding us on the SF thread about how even Philippines SF is better equipped than Indian SF. But what they don't realize is that, for example, Philippines is ultra-excited about buying BrahMos, so much that they've officially called BrahMos "the first Philippine weaponry with deterrent capability". LOL. Here we have a country whose SF is 'better than India' but who looks up to India for its first big weapon. What an irony !

Ok. How does Philippines being excited about brahmos justify lack of proper equipment for our SF ? Please explain ..

 

[Killbot]

CYKA BLYAT INDISKI ONLY KHITANS HAVE LICENSIY TO COPYOV OUR EQUIPMENTS! YOU IS SUPPOSED TO BE GOOD BOY, DON'T BE SVOLOCH!

Its Sooka Blyad Indiskii actually...

 

[AZTEC]

Ok. How does Philippines being excited about brahmos justify lack of proper equipment for our SF ? Please explain ..

It doesn’t.

Rather, the fact that Philippines, and even Cyprus, has a decently-equipped SF signifies the relative inconsequence of a well-equipped SF if the rest of the military is incapable, when viewed from the larger geopolitical/geostrategic lens.

Inconsequence means “having no important effects or influence”.

I showed that Philippines (apparently) does not even consider its well-equipped SF to be a big weapon because BrahMos is going to be its ‘first deterrent weapon’.

Please read my previous posts again.

 

[Killbot]

relative inconsequence of a well-equipped SF

This holds true for a country like Cyprus which doesn't face unconventional threats. India does. And hence we need a much much better equipped SF than what we have now.

 

[AZTEC]

Let me make it easy for you to understand by using a little bit of rhetoric.

Special forces are ‘the tip of the spear’, no doubt.
But there’s a lot more than just the tip that’s required to make a spear lethal.
And there’s a lot more than just the spear that’s required to win a battle.

Think about it.

 

[RoaringTigerHiddenDragon]

Let me make it easy for you to understand by using a little bit of rhetoric.

Special forces are ‘the tip of the spear’, no doubt.
But there’s a lot more than just the tip that’s required to make a spear lethal.
And there’s a lot more than just the spear that’s required to win a battle.

Think about it.

Right now our deterrence can be vastly superior if we can use our special forces to take down terror camps in Pakshitstan. Unless, you are advocating lobbing a Brahmos on every terror camp there. While Brahmos means Pakis won’t escalate, it is really the special forces that will get the job done (aka like how the Americans took out the field marshal of Pakistan Sitara-I-imtiaz Shaheed Osama Bin Laden or how we escalated after the Pathankot attack) behind enemy lines. Stand-off warfare cannot yield immediate deterrence that can save Indian lives from the rabid, frothing at the mouth, diseased, lunatic terror merchants of Pakshitstan. Think about what Russian spetsnaz did in Chechnya. Or French special forces did to Al Keeda in Mali. Or, even how our special forces took out northeast rebels in Myanmar.

 

[Okabe Rintarou]

Let me make it easy for you to understand by using a little bit of rhetoric.

Special forces are ‘the tip of the spear’, no doubt.
But there’s a lot more than just the tip that’s required to make a spear lethal.
And there’s a lot more than just the spear that’s required to win a battle.

Think about it.

Are you going to categorically deny that Indian SF are not looked at nor developed by the Indian Military brass as a Special Force should be? Are you going to deny that a problem exists at all?
And your lame excuse is:-

1. SF is just tip of the spear and since our spear is strong, lets just forget the tip.
2. We got Brahmos boyz
3. Even Cyprus has better equipped SF. But look how weak Cyprus is. So SF does not make you strong.

This is nonsense argument. In 2016 only Indian SF executed the task. Imagine an India with the capability and will to do it more often to Pakistan. Your "rest of the spear" did not drive into Pakistan in 2016. Brahmos was not fired.

Even if you fire your Brahmos, can you erase an HVT inside Pakistan using it? Well, if you had a well-equipped Special Force, you could have them conduct covert recce behind enemy lines and direct Brahmos at them.

By your logic, only the big weapons matter (cuz they are the spear and not a tip). So maybe we should disband the entire Armed Forces and just focus on making more nukes a.k.a. the biggest stick!

Please don't use your trash logic to justify the lack of a gamut of critical sub-conventional military options and a critical conventional military force multiplier capability in the Indian Armed Forces.

I could care less about Cyprus or Philippines. All that matters to me is that a critical gap exists in Indian military capabilities and all due to some stupid office chair politics.

All we need to do is give the right kind of our Special Forces officers some clout and independence. We don't lack the money. We don't lack the training. We don't lack the capability to develop as a force. And currently, we don't even lack the political will. We just lack the proper guidance which is available in-house in from of Para SF officers who get sidelined because of stupid turf wars in Army Brass.

 

[Killbot]

Let me make it easy for you to understand by using a little bit of rhetoric.

Special forces are ‘the tip of the spear’, no doubt.
But there’s a lot more than just the tip that’s required to make a spear lethal.
And there’s a lot more than just the spear that’s required to win a battle.

Think about it.

Brahmos missiles cannot be used in a hostage rescue situation. Or capturing enemy assets. Or deniable operations. But SF can with good equipment. But with the equipment they have now, they cannot.

Saying that BrahMos missiles more important than SF is sheer stupidity..

 

[ALBY]

A case that i'd like to make here,

View attachment 65723
View attachment 65724View attachment 65725
Nigerian Army soldier with Polish Beryl rifle

in 2018 they made a contract with Polish firm Fabryka Broni to supply Beryl Rifles in both 5.56 NATO and 7.62x39mm to replace their older mixed up AKs
there were also talks of ToT and License Production but seems it didn't reach to end stage so now they're buying it off the shelves

Nigerian representative checking out Beryl M762 in 7.62x39mm (pubg pugs,'cognise this riphul ?)
View attachment 65726

^tell me how come Trichy or Ghaatak couldn't be like this and we have to go AK-203 way like these Nigerians are buying Polish Beryl M762

All these different stocks are one reason why standardisation is kinda hard with AK because first you gotta audit the style of AK,then get parts for that if you just want simple retrofit upgrade using replacement part
This is why FAB Defense of Israel has many options of buttstock adapters for AK alone

for e.g. This is their buttstock adapter kit for AK with underfolding buttstock
View attachment 65718

and this is for milled receiver AK47s (Type-2 and Type 3 maybe)
View attachment 65719

Finally this one's for AKM
View attachment 65720

How do u compare Beryl, with Ak203 and milled receiver Arsenal M5F41.All these three are good options, but i really wished OFB would have dared to copy of a tactical Vz58 instead of making cheap knockoffs like Ghatak. But politics is politics.
Anyway opposed to many members view that we should have gone for GalilAce instead of Ak203, indont think buying a $1700 rifle bring that much leap forward advantages.
How do u think Kalashnikov wished the issue of holding zero in the receiver with top rail? If Bulgarians had succeeded in that a Milled receiver M5F41 was a better one than a stamped Ak203.
Also please do make a post on Ak15/12/19.
Anyway good work man, you are putting in good efforts which is reflected in ur writings

 

[Killbot]

How do u compare Beryl, with Ak203 and milled receiver Arsenal M5F41.All these three are good options, but i really wished OFB would have dared to copy of a tactical Vz58 instead of making cheap knockoffs like Ghatak. But politics is politics.
Anyway opposed to many members view that we should have gone for GalilAce instead of Ak203, indont think buying a $1700 rifle bring that much leap forward advantages.
How do u think Kalashnikov wished the issue of holding zero in the receiver with top rail? If Bulgarians had succeeded in that a Milled receiver M5F41 was a better one than a stamped Ak203.
Also please do make a post on Ak15/12/19.
Anyway good work man, you are putting in good efforts which is reflected in ur writings

Actually, $1700 the price on the US civilian market. Where they import parts kits from Israel and assemble them in US, making it compliant to US laws. Also, they have to pay duty to US customs. I'd say price in India if made by PLRS will be around $1200-1300

 

[FalconSlayers]

Actually, $1700 the price on the US civilian market. Where they import parts kits from Israel and assemble them in US, making it compliant to US laws. Also, they have to pay duty to US customs. I'd say price in India if made by PLRS will be around $1200-1300

Why Galil? A 5.56 Kalashnikov can be the best we get. Honestly I feel we should have gone for 6.8x43mm ammo.

 

[N4tsula67]

Anyway bro keep doing the good work. I'm don't have that much knowledge about Military Weapons & Guns in general. I think there are many people here who know more than me. I read this thread everyday i don't understand some stuff at all sometimes at first glance but i get it eventually.
After reading this thread my opinion on Ak203 kind of changed this deal is not good we should gonna for a better gun. Also OFB sux. But again Galli is much more expensive so question arise what could have been a better option at much cheaper price?

 

[FalconSlayers]

Anyway bro keep doing the good work. I'm don't have that much knowledge about Military Weapons & Guns in general. I think there are many people here who know more than me. I read this thread everyday i don't understand some stuff at all sometimes at first glance but i get it eventually.
After reading this thread my opinion on Ak203 kind of changed this deal is not good we should gonna for a better gun. Also OFB sux. But again Galli is much more expensive so question arise what could have been a better option at much cheaper price?

A 6.8x43mm Rifle, idk why are waiting for US? Don’t we have brains of own? Why are we following the west for everything instead of using what we need? China uses a 5.8x42mm cartridge for its guns which better suits their need. We already have a 6.8x43mm Rifle made but we’re waiting for US to give it approval for its next caliber weapon.

 

[Killbot]

Why Galil? A 5.56 Kalashnikov can be the best we get. Honestly I feel we should have gone for 6.8x43mm ammo.

Galil ACE has a left side charging handle. Kalash has it on right side.. It also has ambidextrous safety. AK has it on the right side. AK is actually harder to shoot for a right hander compared to lefty.

And, we'll be getting picatinny rails on 3,6,9 and 12 o clock positions for handguard and on dust cover. Dust cover locking mechanism is very rigid compared to AK, which makes it a very stable optics platform. Historically, AK top covers have been very unstable to mount optics on. That is why there are side rails and stuff. Optics on AK will lose zero very fast.

ACE is very sealed off. I.e, it let's very less dust in the action compared to AK. This is possible due to the top cover locking system, as I said, and a trapdoor like system which acts as a dust cover on charging handle. Its lower reciever is made of polymer and upper is made of milled steel. Very durable.

Its gas block is much more friendly to different muzzle devices than AK. So, if you want to put a different flash hider or even a suppressor, you have that option. Suppressors do not work well with AKs. But this part is probably irrelevant as we won't so it.
And, it has a foldable and collapsible buttstock. OFB does not offer a collapsible one.

It is also worth noting that ACE, while by no means lightweight, is less heavy than 3.9 kg AK 103 at 3.7kg. This 200g difference is significant due to ACE's milled steel reciever is more robust than AK's stamped one. It also has a better magazine well, but that is a minor thing.

And, as I said earlier, it will cost about as much as the AK 103 from OFB. So it is a good bargain.

If the army wanted 5.56 version, it would have same features as 7.62 version plus it takes stanag magazines. It has a different magwell and has a bolt catch and bolt release. This means that when last round is fired and magazine is taken out, the bolt will stay in open position. You just put magazine back in and press a button which releases the magazine. Just like M4. You don't need to crank the charging handle.

ACE also uses aperture based iron sights. Much better sight radius and target id abilities than AK sights.

So, overall, Galil ACE has much better features than AK.

Iiilll

 

[Killbot]

Galil ACE has a left side charging handle. Kalash has it on right side.. It also has ambidextrous safety. AK has it on the right side. AK is actually harder to shoot for a right hander compared to lefty.

And, we'll be getting picatinny rails on 3,6,9 and 12 o clock positions for handguard and on dust cover. Dust cover locking mechanism is very rigid compared to AK, which makes it a very stable optics platform. Historically, AK top covers have been very unstable to mount optics on. That is why there are side rails and stuff. Optics on AK will lose zero very fast.

ACE is very sealed off. I.e, it let's very less dust in the action compared to AK. This is possible due to the top cover locking system, as I said, and a trapdoor like system which acts as a dust cover on charging handle. Its lower reciever is made of polymer and upper is made of milled steel. Very durable.

Its gas block is much more friendly to different muzzle devices than AK. So, if you want to put a different flash hider or even a suppressor, you have that option. Suppressors do not work well with AKs. But this part is probably irrelevant as we won't so it.
And, it has a foldable and collapsible buttstock. OFB does not offer a collapsible one.

It is also worth noting that ACE, while by no means lightweight, is less heavy than 3.9 kg AK 103 at 3.7kg. This 200g difference is significant due to ACE's milled steel reciever is more robust than AK's stamped one. It also has a better magazine well, but that is a minor thing.

And, as I said earlier, it will cost about as much as the AK 103 from OFB. So it is a good bargain.

If the army wanted 5.56 version, it would have same features as 7.62 version plus it takes stanag magazines. It has a different magwell and has a bolt catch and bolt release. This means that when last round is fired and magazine is taken out, the bolt will stay in open position. You just put magazine back in and press a button which releases the magazine. Just like M4. You don't need to crank the charging handle.

ACE also uses aperture based iron sights. Much better sight radius and target id abilities than AK sights.

So, overall, Galil ACE has much better features than AK.


View attachment 65870

View attachment 65871

Iiilll

This means that when last round is fired and magazine is taken out, the bolt will stay in open position. You just put magazine back in and press a button which releases the magazine.

*releases the bolt

 

[ALBY]

Galil ACE has a left side charging handle. Kalash has it on right side.. It also has ambidextrous safety. AK has it on the right side. AK is actually harder to shoot for a right hander compared to lefty.

And, we'll be getting picatinny rails on 3,6,9 and 12 o clock positions for handguard and on dust cover. Dust cover locking mechanism is very rigid compared to AK, which makes it a very stable optics platform. Historically, AK top covers have been very unstable to mount optics on. That is why there are side rails and stuff. Optics on AK will lose zero very fast.

ACE is very sealed off. I.e, it let's very less dust in the action compared to AK. This is possible due to the top cover locking system, as I said, and a trapdoor like system which acts as a dust cover on charging handle. Its lower reciever is made of polymer and upper is made of milled steel. Very durable.

Its gas block is much more friendly to different muzzle devices than AK. So, if you want to put a different flash hider or even a suppressor, you have that option. Suppressors do not work well with AKs. But this part is probably irrelevant as we won't so it.
And, it has a foldable and collapsible buttstock. OFB does not offer a collapsible one.

It is also worth noting that ACE, while by no means lightweight, is less heavy than 3.9 kg AK 103 at 3.7kg. This 200g difference is significant due to ACE's milled steel reciever is more robust than AK's stamped one. It also has a better magazine well, but that is a minor thing.

And, as I said earlier, it will cost about as much as the AK 103 from OFB. So it is a good bargain.

If the army wanted 5.56 version, it would have same features as 7.62 version plus it takes stanag magazines. It has a different magwell and has a bolt catch and bolt release. This means that when last round is fired and magazine is taken out, the bolt will stay in open position. You just put magazine back in and press a button which releases the magazine. Just like M4. You don't need to crank the charging handle.

ACE also uses aperture based iron sights. Much better sight radius and target id abilities than AK sights.

So, overall, Galil ACE has much better features than AK.


View attachment 65870

View attachment 65871

Iiilll

Agree with all the points.But still Galil will cost u 1200 USD min.Compare the proce of it with that of a Bulgarian M5F41 or Ak203 once we start mass production of it after the import of first batch of 50000 rifles.The prices will fall to somewhat in the range of 600-700 USD at max.Do the math whether these extra dollars fetch that much advantage for a 7.62x39 mm gun? Please do google why SAS chose to stay with Colt C-8 instead of buying Hk416 or why Deltas, Rangers and Green berets stick with M4s instead of replacing it with Hks.Same is the case here.
If you are going to buy a better one then there will always be one somewhere else.But its not the point, the point is whether the selected one is reliable, could it shoot straight and is the price right.In that sense Ak203 is good, though i still feel we could have bought or license produced milled receiver Bulgarian M5F41s.But then there is element of geo politics involved. We have to satisfy everyone. As far as Israelis are concerned they got orders for Negev, and remember they sold 12000+ X-95s to Capfs which were too costly and are of not much practical value for the units which it is distributed to. As far as Bulgarians are concerned they had sold more Aks than anyone else in India and then its the turn of Russians.Also to satisfy common man in UP there is a need to make a new factory there.(vote bank politics). Dont know whats the issue of production in Ishapore.

 

[AZTEC]

Are you going to categorically deny that Indian SF are not looked at nor developed by the Indian Military brass as a Special Force should be? Are you going to deny that a problem exists at all?
And your lame excuse is:-

1. SF is just tip of the spear and since our spear is strong, lets just forget the tip.
2. We got Brahmos boyz
3. Even Cyprus has better equipped SF. But look how weak Cyprus is. So SF does not make you strong.

This is nonsense argument. In 2016 only Indian SF executed the task. Imagine an India with the capability and will to do it more often to Pakistan. Your "rest of the spear" did not drive into Pakistan in 2016. Brahmos was not fired.

Even if you fire your Brahmos, can you erase an HVT inside Pakistan using it? Well, if you had a well-equipped Special Force, you could have them conduct covert recce behind enemy lines and direct Brahmos at them.

By your logic, only the big weapons matter (cuz they are the spear and not a tip). So maybe we should disband the entire Armed Forces and just focus on making more nukes a.k.a. the biggest stick!

Please don't use your trash logic to justify the lack of a gamut of critical sub-conventional military options and a critical conventional military force multiplier capability in the Indian Armed Forces.

I could care less about Cyprus or Philippines. All that matters to me is that a critical gap exists in Indian military capabilities and all due to some stupid office chair politics.

All we need to do is give the right kind of our Special Forces officers some clout and independence. We don't lack the money. We don't lack the training. We don't lack the capability to develop as a force. And currently, we don't even lack the political will. We just lack the proper guidance which is available in-house in from of Para SF officers who get sidelined because of stupid turf wars in Army Brass.

Brahmos missiles cannot be used in a hostage rescue situation. Or capturing enemy assets. Or deniable operations. But SF can with good equipment. But with the equipment they have now, they cannot.

Saying that BrahMos missiles more important than SF is sheer stupidity..

This is what happens when you try to explain something to hardcore SF fanboys: ad hominems and straw-man arguments.
Half of my brain died reading this. I don't have the stamina to rebut this myopic BS.

 

[Okabe Rintarou]

This is what happens when you try to explain something to hardcore SF fanboys: ad hominems and straw-man arguments.
Half of my brain died reading this. I don't have the stamina to rebut this myopic BS.

OK. Let me try again. To prevent straw-man, I'll simply ask you:-
Do you think our Special Forces have a scope for improvement? If yes, why has it not been done yet?

 

[Killbot]

This is what happens when you try to explain something to hardcore SF fanboys: ad hominems and straw-man arguments.
Half of my brain died reading this. I don't have the stamina to rebut this myopic BS.

You don't have a rebut in the first place.

You still didn't answer my question. Be the 'Straw man arguments' as they may, can you use a ballistic/cruise missile to rescue hostages? If so, I'll concede.

What you are implying is that we don't need special ops capabilities. It is you who is making 'straw man arguments', by saying that SF capabilities are not needed because you have nuclear deterrence.