Modernisation of Indian Army Infantry

[FalconSlayers]

Garhwal Rifles along frontline
FAB DEFENSE Mod + EOTECH Sight
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Why not upgrade existing AK-47s instead of buying AK-203.

 

[Killbot]

Why not upgrade existing AK-47s instead of buying AK-203.

There are maybe 1.5-2 lakh. Not enough. But they will be upgraded.

 

[Johny_Baba]

Why not upgrade existing AK-47s instead of buying AK-203.

The problem is khichdi,
like we've got what Romanian AKs,Russian AKs,East German AKs,Choyneez Type 56s,Hungarian AKs etc etc,

some of them has fixed buttstock of one type (Russian Type-1,Type-2,Type-3 and AKM all had different buttstock adapters on it)

or underfolding/side folding buttstocks of other type (E.g. Underfolder vs Side Folders,and even in Side Folders there are variations)

Notice how there's difference in the way buttstocks are fixed in these variants despite being of similar type,then there is underfolding stock that requires its own type of receiver cut to fix the adapter and buttstock

 

[Killbot]

The problem is khichdi,
like we've got what Romanian AKs,Russian AKs,East German AKs,Choyneez Type 56s,Hungarian AKs etc etc,

some of them has fixed buttstock of one type (Russian Type-1,Type-2,Type-3 and AKM all had different buttstock adapters on it)
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or underfolding/side folding buttstocks of other type (E.g. Underfolder vs Side Folders,and even in Side Folders there are variations)
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Notice how there's difference in the way buttstocks are fixed in these variants despite being of similar type,then there is underfolding stock that requires its own type of receiver cut to fix the adapter and buttstock
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How about the rear trunnion? Are they different for each model too?

 

[Johny_Baba]

The problem is khichdi,
like we've got what Romanian AKs,Russian AKs,East German AKs,Choyneez Type 56s,Hungarian AKs etc etc,

some of them has fixed buttstock of one type (Russian Type-1,Type-2,Type-3 and AKM all had different buttstock adapters on it)
View attachment 65710
View attachment 65711

or underfolding/side folding buttstocks of other type (E.g. Underfolder vs Side Folders,and even in Side Folders there are variations)
View attachment 65714
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Notice how there's difference in the way buttstocks are fixed in these variants despite being of similar type,then there is underfolding stock that requires its own type of receiver cut to fix the adapter and buttstock
View attachment 65717

All these different stocks are one reason why standardisation is kinda hard with AK because first you gotta audit the style of AK,then get parts for that if you just want simple retrofit upgrade using replacement part
This is why FAB Defense of Israel has many options of buttstock adapters for AK alone

for e.g. This is their buttstock adapter kit for AK with underfolding buttstock

and this is for milled receiver AK47s (Type-2 and Type 3 maybe)

Finally this one's for AKM

 

[Johny_Baba]

So you see,buttstock alone needs considerable sourcing for basic upgrade,
then there is pistol grip (mostly common but still different in unique models like Type-1), handguards (same,common yet discrete in certain models) etc.

This is why AK-103 thing is pushed to bring commonality factor which is again a huge advantage to have,
BUT if they wanted commonality then why only AK-103/203 is given preference ? it could've been achived by procuring any common AK platform be it Bulgarian Arsenal ones or OFB made Trichy/Ghaatak...

 

[FalconSlayers]

So you see,buttstock alone needs considerable sourcing for basic upgrade,
then there is pistol grip (mostly common but still different in unique models like Type-1), handguards (same,common yet discrete in certain models) etc.

This is why AK-103 thing is pushed to bring commonality factor which is again a huge advantage to have,
BUT if they wanted commonality then why only AK-103/203 is given preference ? it could've been achived by procuring any common AK platform be it Bulgarian Arsenal ones or OFB made Trichy/Ghaatak...

AK-15

 

[Johny_Baba]

So you see,buttstock alone needs considerable sourcing for basic upgrade,
then there is pistol grip (mostly common but still different in unique models like Type-1), handguards (same,common yet discrete in certain models) etc.

This is why AK-103 thing is pushed to bring commonality factor which is again a huge advantage to have,
BUT if they wanted commonality then why only AK-103/203 is given preference ? it could've been achived by procuring any common AK platform be it Bulgarian Arsenal ones or OFB made Trichy/Ghaatak...

A case that i'd like to make here,

Nigerian Army soldier with Polish Beryl rifle

in 2018 they made a contract with Polish firm Fabryka Broni to supply Beryl Rifles in both 5.56 NATO and 7.62x39mm to replace their older mixed up AKs
there were also talks of ToT and License Production but seems it didn't reach to end stage so now they're buying it off the shelves

Nigerian representative checking out Beryl M762 in 7.62x39mm (pubg pugs,'cognise this riphul ?)

^tell me how come Trichy or Ghaatak couldn't be like this and we have to go AK-203 way like these Nigerians are buying Polish Beryl M762

 

[Johny_Baba]

How about the rear trunnion? Are they different for each model too?

If buttstock mounting is different then yes,
milled vs stamped socket in receiver could be common in shape but fixing on it differs,
so you techically still can replace a fixed stock on AKM with folding stock of Romanian one since both have similar stamped receiver on it but then you gotta drill some holes out and made adjustments for its buttstock adapter (or Trunnion as it's called) on it.

I've seen a pic of INSAS 1B with Romanian AK's buttstock on it,somewhere from Indo-Choyneez Joint Exercise
So AKM fixed stock ( bekoze INSAS IS AK) to side folding stock in same receiver but might've to replace rear trunnion on it for different stock.

 

[FalconSlayers]

A case that i'd like to make here,

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Nigerian Army soldier with Polish Beryl rifle

in 2018 they made a contract with Polish firm Fabryka Broni to supply Beryl Rifles in both 5.56 NATO and 7.62x39mm to replace their older mixed up AKs
there were also talks of ToT and License Production but seems it didn't reach to end stage so now they're buying it off the shelves

Nigerian representative checking out Beryl M762 in 7.62x39mm (pubg pugs,'cognise this riphul ?)
View attachment 65726

^tell me how come Trichy or Ghaatak couldn't be like this and we have to go AK-203 way like these Nigerians are buying Polish Beryl M762

IA Top brass has an excuse that Ghatak is cheap quality, so no orders, maybe we should have gone for a 5.56mm service rifle variant of Caracal, we should have used Caracal as standard AR, BR and Carbine of IA. This AK-203 makes no sense, it is a regular AKM modifed with Russian made furniture.

I wish this deal gets scrapped coz at the end its the OFB thats going to make AK-203, so we should have gone for OFB Ghatak but what can we do with such an idiotic MoD.

 

[Johny_Baba]

I wish this deal gets scrapped

It won't be because of political reasons

Ordnance Factory ( = gormint jobs ) was promised to the junta of Amethi wayy back in 2008-2009 times,
and after modi sarkaar coming they promised it again, later AK-203 contract suddently arrives around 2019 general election times.

Also i'd like to mention,in certain closed group we were given news that Tavor-7 was supposedly winner for 7.62 NATO tender (2018 era nooj btw) but then things happen and voila! we suddently get this SIG-716 G2 that was later altered with SIG-716i variant hhmm....

 

[FalconSlayers]

IA Top brass has an excuse that Ghatak is cheap quality, so no orders, maybe we should have gone for a 5.56mm service rifle variant of Caracal, we should have used Caracal as standard AR, BR and Carbine of IA. This AK-203 makes no sense, it is a regular AKM modifed with Russian made furniture.

I wish this deal gets scrapped coz at the end its the OFB thats going to make AK-203, so we should have gone for OFB Ghatak but what can we do with such an idiotic MoD.

This 7.62x39 mm ARSENAL Assault Rifle AR-M5T, AR-M5TB with telescopic butt would have been better for commonality as we are already using more than 4 lakh Arsenal AKs in Paramilitary.

 

[Killbot]

If buttstock mounting is different then yes,
milled vs stamped socket in receiver could be common in shape but fixing on it differs,
so you techically still can replace a fixed stock on AKM with folding stock of Romanian one since both have similar milled receiver on it but then you gotta drill some holes out and made adjustments for its buttstock adapter (or Trunnion as it's called) on it.

I've seen a pic of INSAS 1B with Romanian AK's buttstock on it,somewhere from Indo-Choyneez Joint Exercise
So AKM fixed stock ( bekoze INSAS IS AK) to side folding stock in same receiver but might've to replace rear trunnion on it for different stock.

So just replace all rear trunnions with AK 203 one. Add collapsible, foldable buttstock.

And add a railed, hinged top cover (with a non reciprocating charging handle on left side, preferably) and cut the barrel down to 14".

Thread it for muzzle device, add a good quad rail handguard (off the gas block), add a new adjustable gas block (if possible), and a Galil safety selector.

Voila, you have a CQB (not really) carbine. And its gonna be way better than that AK '203' we are getting. Also, will probably cost half as much (maybe ₹40k). The other half can be used to get a good optic. (Aimpoint Comp, EOTech XPS series or something like that. Cost around $600 i.e. ~₹45,000)

 

[Johny_Baba]

This 7.62x39 mm ARSENAL Assault Rifle AR-M5T, AR-M5TB with telescopic butt would have been better for commonality as we are already using more than 4 lakh Arsenal AKs in Paramilitary.
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Also you see, we already have Trichy with M4 buttstock adapters,
putting this Arsenal style rails on it (or better putting FAB style railed top cover) would be easy peasy japanesy
Trichy = kopy of Arsenal milled receiver AK

 

[Johny_Baba]

Add collapsible, foldable buttstock.

You see Sir,Our guys went there in Rossiya to discuss deal of AK-103 ( = AK-74M in 7.62x39mm ) but it was the russians who insisted on modern iteration of it ala AK-203 which had length adjustable buttstock that also folds on side.
We signed the deal,
then someone decides that giving soldiers a length adjustable buttstock = training ka kharcha badhana, apart from procurement cost etc etc and got downgraded one (basically AK-103 with railed top cover) instead.

ALSO,I THINK NOT MANY PEOPLE ARE AWARE OF HOW RUSSIANS DID WHOLE AK BUSINESS AFTER BREAKUP OF USSR (TALKING ABOUT NOT ONLY AK-100 SERIES BUT ALSO AK-12 ETC)...IF YOU'D KNOW ABOUT IT AND CO-RELATE WHOLE THING WITH AK-203 (?) DEAL WE DID WITH THEM YOUR BLOOD WOULD LITERALLY TURN INTO STEAM IN SHEAR ANGER...WOULD TRY TO POST A QUICK SUMMARY SORTA THING WITH TIMELINE (IN YEARS) TO EXPLAIN WHOLE THING.

 

[India Super Power]

You see Sir,Our guys went there in Rossiya to discuss deal of AK-103 ( = AK-74M in 7.62x39mm ) but it was the russians who insisted on modern iteration of it ala AK-203 which had length adjustable buttstock that also folds on side.
We signed the deal,
then someone decides that giving soldiers a length adjustable buttstock = training ka kharcha badhana, apart from procurement cost etc etc and got downgraded one (basically AK-103 with railed top cover) instead.

ALSO,I THINK NOT MANY PEOPLE ARE AWARE OF HOW RUSSIANS DID WHOLE AK BUSINESS AFTER BREAKUP OF USSR (TALKING ABOUT NOT ONLY AK-100 SERIES BUT ALSO AK-12 ETC)...IF YOU'D KNOW ABOUT IT AND CO-RELATE WHOLE THING WITH AK-203 (?) DEAL WE DID WITH THEM YOUR BLOOD WOULD LITERALLY TURN INTO STEAM IN SHEAR ANGER...WOULD TRY TO POST A QUICK SUMMARY SORTA THING WITH TIMELINE (IN YEARS) TO EXPLAIN WHOLE THING.

Yeah we will get ak 103 in name of ak 203

 

[NAMICA]

Well AK203 is a pure political purchase just like kamov and NASAMS .

 

[Johny_Baba]

You see Sir,Our guys went there in Rossiya to discuss deal of AK-103 ( = AK-74M in 7.62x39mm ) but it was the russians who insisted on modern iteration of it ala AK-203 which had length adjustable buttstock that also folds on side.
We signed the deal,
then someone decides that giving soldiers a length adjustable buttstock = training ka kharcha badhana, apart from procurement cost etc etc and got downgraded one (basically AK-103 with railed top cover) instead.

ALSO,I THINK NOT MANY PEOPLE ARE AWARE OF HOW RUSSIANS DID WHOLE AK BUSINESS AFTER BREAKUP OF USSR (TALKING ABOUT NOT ONLY AK-100 SERIES BUT ALSO AK-12 ETC)...IF YOU'D KNOW ABOUT IT AND CO-RELATE WHOLE THING WITH AK-203 (?) DEAL WE DID WITH THEM YOUR BLOOD WOULD LITERALLY TURN INTO STEAM IN SHEAR ANGER...WOULD TRY TO POST A QUICK SUMMARY SORTA THING WITH TIMELINE (IN YEARS) TO EXPLAIN WHOLE THING.

Oh i forgot to mention,
there was also a thing that मादर Rossiya was UNHAPPY with us for "copying" AK,
remember the time when Mikhail Kalashnikov came here to visit certain defence exhibition, saw OFB made copies in their stall and lost his marbals over it ?
Rossiya never moved away of that protest against illegal copying (lol) of their rifle.

So this AK-203 (?) deal is also made to *ahem* pacify Rossiyans regarding that copying

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Sounds so interesting,isn't it ?

Like they are chimping on us for copying a rifle design that they universally distributed among all soshialist states out there with LOWE but India making it makes it ;ILLEGAL REEEEEEEEEEEE;

That too a rifle design that wasn't technically patented behind the inventor team's head ala Mikhail Kalashnikov, he did it all for his motherland that later distributed it among all soshialists who shouted "Oh I hate capitalists!"

And even if Izhmash // Kalashnikov Concern has "rights" on the design what stops us from kopying it, like Israelis did it with Galil (by copying Finnish Valmet series AK), Belgians made FN FNC that's essentially their own flavour of AK, Swiss made SG540 // SG550 series....and literally nobody from मादर Rossiya protested to them.

^Still,If that's the case then we better move on to a design that's already out of copyright shit ala AR design of USA because at least they won't be meddling much.

even मादर Rossiya is making its copies nowadays lol,just look at this,
Meet Vepr-15,Russian made AR-15 from 2012 times...

 

[N4tsula67]

But honestly we should have gonna for something better than AK-203. Politics,Babu lobby man this is annoying. But AK-203 deal if get cancelled it gonna take another 6-7 year for MOD babus to find replacement. Also after Biden winning the US election INDO-US relationship might not be that good. Also Russia won't be happy if we scrap the deal and our most of the system are Russian.

 

[Abhay Rajput 02]

Quite highly regarded by army.