Modernisation of Indian Army Infantry

[vampyrbladez]

Yeah - cheaper than AK203s, but, heavier, and the top rail doesn't retain zero.

Correction : have been reliably informed (thrashed) that FAB rail does indeed retain zero. Noted.

Still heavier.

I supported AK 203. Bulk production will bring down prices and is lighter. You misunderstood.

 

[Johny_Baba]

In one sense i'm not happy with the deal,that is obvious 'since we manufacture various kalashnikov derivatives at home,why go after phoren ka maal'.

Seriously,despite all saaxy looking things on AK-203,it is still the same old kalashnikov in new 'clothes'.

Granted that rails and other things on it are significantly improving its performance on battlefield,i do not think we need to pay for such trivial and simple things to an outsider at first place as we damn can make them at home here.

but neither such upgrades are being done here domestically (that is why we're paying monies to those guys like FAB Defense and so) nor we're trying to make our ghar ki "कौआ बिरयानी" (INSAS,Ghaatak,Trichy Kalashnikov Variant and so) into lazeez Chicken Biryani.

 

[Johny_Baba]

By the way...I wonder which magazine type we will get with our AK-203s....

The older Bakelite-pattern plastic...

View attachment 33170

...or the newer ruggedized PMAG-style polymer with slit windows...

The graphics shown at the Amethi sabha display 203 with the newer magazine iteration. But remains to be seen if that will be the production configuration for us or if it was just a representative image...

Personally, I hope it will be the latter. The textured surface allows for much better grip even when wearing thick gloves. Plus the advantage afforded by the slits to know if a mag is full, half or empty/near empty simply by glancing rather than having to pick up and "weigh" it for the feel to determine the same....

As you may have already guessed it,AK-203 is backward compatible with all standard kalashnikov magazines for 7.62 x 39mm so virtually it can be equipped with current stock of mags we have in our armed forces without any hassle.

But yeah,i too think those newer russian magazines should be inducted in large nos to make it standard issue here because of advantages mentioned in your posts.

Moreover to that,i think those newer FAB mags that we inducted or similar domestically produced magazines can also be made standard issue for that round.

FAB Defense AK Mag

 

[vampyrbladez]

In one sense i'm not happy with the deal,that is obvious 'since we manufacture various kalashnikov derivatives at home,why go after phoren ka maal'.

Seriously,despite all saaxy looking things on AK-203,it is still the same old kalashnikov in new 'clothes'.

Granted that rails and other things on it are significantly improving its performance on battlefield,i do not think we need to pay for such trivial and simple things to an outsider at first place as we damn can make them at home here.

but neither such upgrades are being done here domestically (that is why we're paying monies to those guys like FAB Defense and so) nor we're trying to make our ghar ki "कौआ बिरयानी" (INSAS,Ghaatak,Trichy Kalashnikov Variant and so) into lazeez Chicken Biryani.

Your own post mentioned why Ghatak was doomed. I linked it here.

 

[Johny_Baba]

Your own post mentioned why Ghatak was doomed. I linked it here.

Yeah i saw that.It was my very first post on the phorum,too.

And yet i still don't find much progress in domestic firearms scenario,except perhaps Mk.1C Excalibur platform and MCIWS // AAR.

Even those ones got butchered up by Army's ;Goal Shifting; antics.

 

[Maddy_9UY]

Your own post mentioned why Ghatak was doomed. I linked it here.

They tried their hands on AK in the mid 2000s with AK-7 .. but even that gun was rejected by the army due to poor quality. It was then put out of production when Izhmash factory objected due to copyrights.

 

[bhramos]

#SVDs upgraded by a private company SSLMT for #IndianArmy .

Monolithic top rail. M Lok rails on 3, 6 and 9 Foldable and adjustable buttstock. Quick detach bi pod 40 segment picatinny rail on the top. As per IA specified requirements

 

[vampyrbladez]

#SVDs upgraded by a private company SSLMT for #IndianArmy .

Monolithic top rail. M Lok rails on 3, 6 and 9 Foldable and adjustable buttstock. Quick detach bi pod 40 segment picatinny rail on the top. As per IA specified requirements

It's a foreign company basically 'modding' stuff to look TACTICOOL! For DMR roles, Sig 716 G is ideal. Let us stick to that.

 

[Gessler]

It's a foreign company basically 'modding' stuff to look TACTICOOL! For DMR roles, Sig 716 G is ideal. Let us stick to that.

For this role, a SIG716 DMR variant (with a longer 18 or 20" barrel) is ideal. Ofcourse we have to buy a good scope of at least 6x magnification to go with it. But barring the possibility of these equipment being procured in an ad-hoc manner at battalion/regiment level, it's going to be a long while before IA adopts a new DMR as SVD replacement.

Till then, I'd say the IA marksman would be well served with this upgrade kit. The SVD still remains a great shooting system...it's chief drawback in my opinion, is its PSO-1 scope, which is simply not up to par with modern standards. This upgrade kit brings a picatinny rail over the receiver and that alone should fix the problem - now one can put whatever MIL-STD scope they want on the SVD.

 

[sthf]

Why would you need a DMR when infantry is poised to use a full power round as standard issue?

DMR's purpose was/is to provide extra range and stopping power over intermediate rounds which are prevalent in most armies.

Plus there are no section DMRs in IA. Dragunovs are used as sniper rifles not as DMR and will be replaced by .338 rifles.

 

[Prashant12]

Defence Ministry plans to modernise Indian weaponry after Pulwama, may soon induct 10 lakh hand grenades for combat troops

The proposal for buying hand grenades will be covered under the ‘Make in India’ project in the military sector and will replace the existing HE-36 grenades which are indigenously manufactured by the Ordnance Factory Board which comes under the Ministry of Defence.

The Defence Ministry is considering a proposal to buy 10 lakh multi-mode hand grenades for the Indian Army as per reported by ANI news agency

This proposal for buying hand grenades for the Army will be covered under the ‘Make in India’ project in the military sector and will replace the existing HE-36 grenades which are indigenously manufactured by the Ordnance Factory Board which comes under the Ministry of Defence.

“A proposal for buying 10 lakh hand grenades from an Indian firm would be considered by the MOD at a high-level meeting to be chaired by Defence Minister Nirmala Sitharaman this week,” government sources told ANI.





This comes on the back of the Pulwama attack where 40 CRPF personnel were martyred by a suicide bombing orchestrated by ‘Jaish-e-Mohammad’.

In a bid to modernize the weapons provided to the soldiers of our defense forces the government already signed two new contracts for modern rifles, American made ‘SIG Sauer’ and ‘AK-203’ which will be a Joint venture with Russia.

There has long been a requirement of modernizing the weapons of the army and in times where the tension with neighboring Pakistan are at their highest, this decision is a welcomed one.

https://www.indiatvnews.com/news/in...0-lakh-hand-grenades-for-combat-troops-509263

 

[abingdonboy]

Defence Ministry plans to modernise Indian weaponry after Pulwama, may soon induct 10 lakh hand grenades for combat troops

The proposal for buying hand grenades will be covered under the ‘Make in India’ project in the military sector and will replace the existing HE-36 grenades which are indigenously manufactured by the Ordnance Factory Board which comes under the Ministry of Defence.

The Defence Ministry is considering a proposal to buy 10 lakh multi-mode hand grenades for the Indian Army as per reported by ANI news agency

This proposal for buying hand grenades for the Army will be covered under the ‘Make in India’ project in the military sector and will replace the existing HE-36 grenades which are indigenously manufactured by the Ordnance Factory Board which comes under the Ministry of Defence.

“A proposal for buying 10 lakh hand grenades from an Indian firm would be considered by the MOD at a high-level meeting to be chaired by Defence Minister Nirmala Sitharaman this week,” government sources told ANI.





This comes on the back of the Pulwama attack where 40 CRPF personnel were martyred by a suicide bombing orchestrated by ‘Jaish-e-Mohammad’.

In a bid to modernize the weapons provided to the soldiers of our defense forces the government already signed two new contracts for modern rifles, American made ‘SIG Sauer’ and ‘AK-203’ which will be a Joint venture with Russia.

There has long been a requirement of modernizing the weapons of the army and in times where the tension with neighboring Pakistan are at their highest, this decision is a welcomed one.

https://www.indiatvnews.com/news/in...0-lakh-hand-grenades-for-combat-troops-509263

This better not be an import.

A nation that can make fighter jets and SAMs can make hand grenades.

 

[Gessler]

Why would you need a DMR when infantry is poised to use a full power round as standard issue?

DMR's purpose was/is to provide extra range and stopping power over intermediate rounds which are prevalent in most armies.

Plus there are no section DMRs in IA. Dragunovs are used as sniper rifles not as DMR and will be replaced by .338 rifles.

It's not just about the weapon but the training as well. A 'marksman' is a better sharpshooter than an infantryman, even with the same weapon. IA had a real problem in clearly defining these roles (hence we were stupid enough to issue a DMR to Snipers and call it a sniper rifle).

In my opinion, a section needs at least 2 men capable of expert marksmanship. Even with everyone issued 7.62 Nato rifles with 4x scopes and 16" barrels, a marksman with the same rifle but with a 20" barrel (if available), 6x scope and a bipod would still be capable of reaching out and touching targets reliably at a much farther range than his teammates.

The Mk.12 SPR is a case in point where peripheral equipment and training is what gives the marksman his edge - rather than just the weapon & its calibre.

It remains to be seen how IA will evolve its sniper team strategy going forward - but I will say one thing: a DMR may double up as a poor man's sniper rifle, but a sniper rifle cannot double up as a DMR. Once IA moves to bolt-action .338 rifles as sniper armament, a requirement for a semi-auto rifle with a high-power scope will be felt ACUTELY in my opinion - watch that space.

 

[sthf]

In my opinion, a section needs at least 2 men capable of expert marksmanship. Even with everyone issued 7.62 Nato rifles with 4x scopes and 16" barrels, a marksman with the same rifle but with a 20" barrel (if available), 6x scope and a bipod would still be capable of reaching out and touching targets reliably at a much farther range than his teammates.

No you don't. IA infantry sections are one of the most heavily armed in the world. Adding a DMR to section will be traded off with something more important whilst adding little to nothing in return. Breakdown of IA section.

2 LMG gunners - 2 Insas LMG - 700 round each on weapon + 500 rounds distributed.

2 man RCL team - 1 Carl Gustaf - 4 rounds on weapon + 6 rounds on assistant gunner.

6 man assault team - Service rifle each + ammunition.

Of these, 6 service rifles will be replaced by SIGs, LMGs by Negev 7 (if MOD can get its act together, won the last tender) and CG M3 by M4 (fingers crossed). Ammunition carried is anyone's guess.

Video games, movies and American WOT has warped the notion of conventional war fighting so much that every soldier is now a "warrior". Nope, he is not. A section's frontage is almost never more than 300 meters (I am being very very generous here as this is the frontage of a platoon at the very least) and engagement takes place at no more than 350-400m (again, being generous).

It remains to be seen how IA will evolve its sniper team strategy going forward - but I will say one thing: a DMR may double up as a poor man's sniper rifle, but a sniper rifle cannot double up as a DMR. Once IA moves to bolt-action .338 rifles as sniper armament, a requirement for a semi-auto rifle with a high-power scope will be felt ACUTELY in my opinion - watch that space.

IA doesn't have the role of DMR as it was never needed. IA used full power rounds as standard till the late 90s, early 2000s and has reverted back to it. IA sections are not going to engage Taliban, perched up in the mountains being out ranged by their PKMs. This is where the modern DMR craze began.

If a reequipped IA section wants to engage further than the 500m range for the service rifle (800m for MGs) then the section leader calls up for direct or indirect fire along the chain of command.

If the need for DMR may arise in the future, I can assure you that it will be at no less than platoon level if not at company level.

Snipers are battalion level assets and will remain so.

 

[Gessler]

No you don't. IA infantry sections are one of the most heavily armed in the world. Adding a DMR to section will be traded off with something more important whilst adding little to nothing in return.

Not necessarily. In our case, a Marksman will be nothing but a riflemen with the same service rifle, but with a magnified optic and bipod provided as standard equipment. It doesn't take away anything.

IA doesn't have the role of DMR as it was never needed. IA used full power rounds as standard till the late 90s, early 2000s and has reverted back to it. IA sections are not going to engage Taliban, perched up in the mountains being out ranged by their PKMs. This is where the modern DMR craze began.

If a reequipped IA section wants to engage further than the 500m range for the service rifle (800m for MGs) then the section leader calls up for direct or indirect fire along the chain of command.

If the need for DMR may arise in the future, I can assure you that it will be at no less than platoon level if not at company level.

Snipers are battalion level assets and will remain so.

Every sniper under the IA today who's equipped with SVDs will sooner or later replace them with a bolt-action .338 rifle. And once that happens, the 2nd man in the sniper team/spotter will have no choice but go with a SIG716 with a magnifier on it - in other words, a DMR.

 

[sthf]

Not necessarily. In our case, a Marksman will be nothing but a riflemen with the same service rifle, but with a magnified optic and bipod provided as standard equipment. It doesn't take away anything.

1) Once again, a full power DMR with 6x scope is way outside section's engagement range. Wishing something doesn't mean it's feasible.

2) Each section requires a minimum of 6 men in an assault team. Earlier sections used to have 7 member assault team.
None of them can be replaced for a marksman. Marksmen don't charge bunkers, riflemen do.

Every sniper under the IA today who's equipped with SVDs will sooner or later replace them with a bolt-action .338 rifle. And once that happens, the 2nd man in the sniper team/spotter will have no choice but go with a SIG716 with a magnifier on it - in other words, a DMR.

But not at the section level something that you argued.

 

[Gessler]

1) Once again, a full power DMR with 6x scope is way outside section's engagement range. Wishing something doesn't mean it's feasible.

2) Each section requires a minimum of 6 men in an assault team. Earlier sections used to have 7 member assault team.
None of them can be replaced for a marksman. Marksmen don't charge bunkers, riflemen do.

It remains to be seen what kind of scope we will adopt. From what IA RFIs say so far, only 4x optics are meant to be procured. The numbers discussed therein are certainly not for the whole infantry - my guess is, the guns with the 4x optics will see pretty limited use.

4x magnification, the same you see as standard-issue with the TA31 ACOGs on US Army & Marine M4s and M16s when they clear rooms.

But not at the section level something that you argued.

If you have 6 guys with SIG716/AK-203s in a section and 2 of them have 4x optics while the rest have non-magnifying collimators (if anything at all), then those 2 are marksmen.

 

[vampyrbladez]

IA doesn't have the role of DMR as it was never needed. IA used full power rounds as standard till the late 90s, early 2000s and has reverted back to it. IA sections are not going to engage Taliban, perched up in the mountains being out ranged by their PKMs. This is where the modern DMR craze began.

Here you are perfectly describing Kargil. DMRs give IA section counter sniping and anti heavy weapon capability with additional marksman badge level training to soldiers.

Our troops will be armed with AK 203s and Sig 716 G2s as service rifles. CAR 816/5.56 mm RFI rifles will be given to officers,radiomen and crewed weapon operators. Officers hated the 9mm sterling and prefer AKs to that gun.

Other than that I expect to see X 95 Tavors and even some FAB AKMs being placed in the ring, especially for Ghatak units.

For LMG RFI, I expect the IMI Negev 7.62 to win. Effectively 5.56 mm is being phased out as it should be.

 

[ALBY]

Here you are perfectly describing Kargil. DMRs give IA section counter sniping and anti heavy weapon capability with additional marksman badge level training to soldiers.

Our troops will be armed with AK 203s and Sig 716 G2s as service rifles. CAR 816/5.56 mm RFI rifles will be given to officers,radiomen and crewed weapon operators. Officers hated the 9mm sterling and prefer AKs to that gun.

Other than that I expect to see X 95 Tavors and even some FAB AKMs being placed in the ring, especially for Ghatak units.

For LMG RFI, I expect the IMI Negev 7.62 to win. Effectively 5.56 mm is being phased out as it should be.

Negev is too expensive for fielding in large quantities. Much cheaper though bit heavier UKM2000Ps or PKPs/Bulgarian PKM variants could be more suitable for regular infantry.

 

[Gessler]

Negev is too expensive for fielding in large quantities. Much cheaper though bit heavier UKM2000Ps or PKPs/Bulgarian PKM variants could be more suitable for regular infantry.

First and foremost is that the LMG needs to have commonality in ammunition with the frontline service rifle at least - in short it has to be 7.62x51mm Nato. No Russian MGs will meet this requirement, unless they develop & offer specialized variants.

Second, the price will be determined by a competitive bidding process. In that way, don't be surprised if the price of the weapons comes down drastically.