MMRCA news and discussions.

[Dark Sorrow]

If MBDA and Israel are in a competitive bid for seekers, then they will sell their tech. Because if one wins the other loses and nobody wants to lose in the world of Business.

The JVs are primarily to carry out development work in India under DRDO and co.

I don't agree with u mate. If buying seekes of the shelf was so easy we could have brought seekers for Maitri(MDBA contribution will only be for seeker), Barack 8(Israeli contribution is primarily for seeker and the fire control system) and the ramjet engine for Brahmos(primary russian contribution is for the ramjet engine) directly.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

Small RCS and EW. Simple. Rafale wins hands down in both categories.

Don't forget better weapons package, better radar, the towed decoy and the list goes on.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

You can't send a SH into a Flanker territory and expect it to come back. SH will need escorts, unlike Rafale and EF. Gripen, less range.

The only ability the SH has is range and payload.

Considering engagement PAF, PAF will use F-16 for offence purpose than defence purpose leaving J-17, Mirage and other vanitage aircraft for air-defence. A SH with good radar and a decent EW can handle such aircraft. The only problem SH could be F-16.

 

[John]

the SH has killed two mig-21's in a close in fight, lets not forget the mig-21 is faster but the SH pilot just switched to aim-9x and blew both of em in less than 30 seconds. The SH can operate independently and is just as effective as the Rafale and EF in BVR roles. Its radar is better, give it the Meteor and it will kill a flanker from over 100km away and its a sure kill. not to mention it can carry upto 10 Meteors in a single sortie, 2 more than the Rafale and EF, in a A2A role it has a combat radius of 1300 km without mid-air refueling. This range will increase once its fitted with the new engine with 20% higher thrust which put it at 26,000lbs or 118Kn per engine, it will get a lot faster. It already performs like an aircraft with tvc. it can fire the AAGRM which has a range of 100km+ and can shoot down shut-off radars, now besides Delilah (which is already on the Viper) and ALARM there aren't any other SEAD missiles quite as advanced. Rafale can fire the HARM and Marte in SEAD role both inferior to what the SH can fire. besides delilah there aren't really any long range SEAD missiles and AAGRM is the best in class for its range. Rafale can't fire it. so how is the Rafale better in a sead role than the SH.

SH too has a towed decoy and if we opt to put in the BAE DEWS suite which is also going on the F-15SE, it can pretty much be safe against missile threats, the radar is better, its more mature, and SH is ideal for independent missions, armed with over 16 SDBs, 2 AAGRMs and A2A missiles, a single SH can penetrate deep all alone, not to mention the jammer it carries, it pretty much owns the sky. we do need to get Meteor on it and until the Meteor arrives we can have the Aim-120D, either way both Falcon and Rafale are better options coz they also fire longer range missiles with the SLAM-ER going as far as 270km while Rafale can reach targets upto 250km away and those missiles are more expensive.

 

[p2prada]

I don't agree with u mate. If buying seekes of the shelf was so easy we could have brought seekers for Maitri(MDBA contribution will only be for seeker), Barack 8(Israeli contribution is primarily for seeker and the fire control system) and the ramjet engine for Brahmos(primary russian contribution is for the ramjet engine) directly.

You cant do anything with just the seeker. Its not like we put a Maitri seeker on Akash and call it a MR SAM. Not happening.

The Barak 8 is wholly designed by Israel. India is paying. Plus some small software coding.

A SAM is technically more sophisticated than a Ballistic missile. It comes as an entire package. The Python 5 has a number of control surfaces required for super maneuverability. You can't just put the Python 5 seeker on a R-73 and expect the same capability.

We are not buying seekers off the shelf primarily because we can't make the entire control system on our own.

 

[p2prada]

the SH has killed two mig-21's in a close in fight, lets not forget the mig-21 is faster but the SH pilot just switched to aim-9x and blew both of em in less than 30 seconds.

They were regular hornets and not Super hornets. Still the enemy were mig-21s and not Mig-21 bisons. Plus Iraqi. So, pathetic training.

The SH can operate independently and is just as effective as the Rafale and EF in BVR roles.

Not if there are 2 Flankers on its tail.

Its radar is better, give it the Meteor and it will kill a flanker from over 100km away and its a sure kill.

You are the first guy on the planet who is posting a 100% kill ratio for a BVR. The actual kill ratio is less than 30%. That too depending on a lot of factors.

not to mention it can carry upto 10 Meteors in a single sortie, 2 more than the Rafale and EF, in a A2A role it has a combat radius of 1300 km without mid-air refueling.

Like I said, only advantages are range and payload. How about we just buy B-1R then.

This range will increase once its fitted with the new engine with 20% higher thrust which put it at 26,000lbs or 118Kn per engine, it will get a lot faster.

It's common sense that when you put a more powerful engine, it will gulp fuel faster. Range decreases with more power.

It already performs like an aircraft with tvc

No, it does not.

it can fire the AAGRM which has a range of 100km+ and can shoot down shut-off radars, now besides Delilah (which is already on the Viper) and ALARM there aren't any other SEAD missiles quite as advanced. Rafale can fire the HARM and Marte in SEAD role both inferior to what the SH can fire. besides delilah there aren't really any long range SEAD missiles and AAGRM is the best in class for its range. Rafale can't fire it. so how is the Rafale better in a sead role than the SH.

Small RCS and a powerful jammer.

SH too has a towed decoy and if we opt to put in the BAE DEWS suite which is also going on the F-15SE, it can pretty much be safe against missile threats, the radar is better, its more mature, and SH is ideal for independent missions, armed with over 16 SDBs, 2 AAGRMs and A2A missiles, a single SH can penetrate deep all alone, not to mention the jammer it carries, it pretty much owns the sky. we do need to get Meteor on it and until the Meteor arrives we can have the Aim-120D, either way both Falcon and Rafale are better options coz they also fire longer range missiles with the SLAM-ER going as far as 270km while Rafale can reach targets upto 250km away and those missiles are more expensive.

ZZZ. Been repeating the same thing over and over. Tell something new.

SH can't penetrate deep all alone. Against China, the SH will have to face off against some 10 PL-12s, 20 SAMS and some 100 MANPADs before coming home. We are not buying fighters against Saddam. The MRCA is meant for an enemy that overwhelms us in numbers.

 

[John]

in a war with China, SH is not going to the aircraft to penetrate 1st and neither will it be the EF or Rafale, it will be the PAKFA, MCA, its madness to send any 4.5 gen aircraft to hit china, secondly even if we send the SH, armed with the Taurus it can hit a target 500 km away and no MTCR limits on that missile, Rafale can't. Rafale, EF, none of the 4.5 gen fighters will last a mile within Chinese airspace. no the new SH engine is more fuel efficient and more powerful. The new Rafale unfunded engine too will have higher thrust and range as well.

Rafale's jammer is nothing close what the F-18G carries and no other aircraft can match its ability in SEAD roles. The flanker will be spotted by the SH well over 250 km away and Meteor will kill, even the Aim-120 has a much higher hit rate and combat proven so your blah blah about 30% is zilch because there is enough proof of better kill rates, Meteor being a ramjet air breathing missile will certainly kill the flanker easily. Rafale's SEAD weapons cant shoot down a shut down radar so whats the use of heavy jammer or a smaller rcs.

In any war with China you will be very stupid to send even the flankers or mrca in first, the opening shots will be fired by PAKFA, MCA and possibly F-35 if we have them in the future. you can be sure the MRCA wont enter on day one, they will remain well within our own airspace making sure no one enters our air space while MCA and PAKFA knock out key targets. send-in mrca on the opening day in a war with china...what a moron...

 

[luckyy]

the SH has killed two mig-21's in a close in fight,.

so , IAF will be encountering mig-21's in future wars ?

 

[Sridhar]

send-in mrca on the opening day in a war with china...what a moron...

Who is moron , the one talking about sending paper planes to China .

 

[John]

so , IAF will be encountering mig-21's in future wars ?

yes have you forgotten, PAkistanis have a lot of F-7s, mirage V, mirage 3, J-17 which are pretty much easy kills for the SH, i agree our bigger threat is China which is why an all out war is even more remote because both india and china will loose just the same during a war and both will be leveled but with Pak we have an advantage. even in the case of china, the bulk of their force is J-7s, Q-5s, JH/-7s, H-6 bombers, J8s, J17s, j-10s all of which are again easy kills for the SH, to counter the su-30/27, j-11s we have our MKI which even after the mrca arrives will retain its air superiority role.

We do have the flankers to provide mini-awacs which is ideal for air superiority. Armed with awacs killers and long range amraamskis the mki will hold off most potent air threats clearing the way for the mrca to unleash heavy long range weapons and SH is unparalleled in those roles.

 

[pppppppp]

With the sheer numbers of PLAAF, it is a very hard task to stop their offensive attack. Also they have caught up with the technology and they have their independent 5th generation program. Also they have got a big pile of money, which is being used for R&D. Even with MMRCA, it is very difficult to be even defensive. Unless we have a indigenous manufacturing of different aircrafts, it is difficult to match the offensive power. So atleast I expect LCA / LCA-MKII to be built in huge numbers and also if needed we can sell it to african / south american countries to reduce the production costs. I wonder whats in the plan for IAF?

 

[luckyy]

yes have you forgotten, PAkis have a lot of F-7s, mirage V, mirage 3, J-17 which are pretty much easy kills for the SH, i agree our bigger threat is China which is why an all out war is even more remote because both india and china will loose just the same during a war and both will be leveled but with Pak we have an advantage. even in the case of china, the bulk of their force is J-7s, Q-5s, JH/-7s, H-6 bombers, J8s, J17s, j-10s all of which are again easy kills for the SH, to counter the su-30/27, j-11s we have our MKI which even after the mrca arrives will retain its air superiority role.

We do have the flankers to provide mini-awacs which is ideal for air superiority. Armed with awacs killers and long range amraamskis the mki will hold off most potent air threats clearing the way for the mrca to unleash heavy long range weapons and SH is unparalleled in those roles.

and you think pakistanis will keep operating these F-7s, mirage V, mirage 3, for next 35 years and won't buy a better plane...

and among teens i strongly feel that F-16 is better then F-18 in over all capabilities...

 

[Arjak]

John,for the pakistani f-7s and mirage roses and also jf-17s we have the bison,mig29,mirages.........leaving those we also have the su30mki(which can bust some for real).......so we dont need a mig21 killer......,but a capable fighter for countering the j10b or j11,some of whom the pakistanis are also planning to induct........and also which can have air superiority over the himalayas........the SH fails miserably there

 

[John]

well why would you use the mrca for air superiority in the first place, even the Rafale, EF will have a lot of trouble when they counter those chinese su-30s and su-27s up close and personal since none of except them except mig-35 can effectively hold its own in a dogfight against the Su-30 and am sure our Bisons which we loose atleast one in a month in crashes is not available in good numbers to counter the masses of J-7, Q-5s, J-17s.
yes we do have the mig-21s, mig-29s which can deal with j-10s, j-11s as well no problem, i dont think till PAKFA arrives we have any shortage of air superiority aircraft, the MKI will deal with all chinese 4.5 gen aircraft. MRCA has to be all-rounder.

LCA will counter all 3rd gen and near 4th gen chinese and PAkistani aircraft, mig-29/Su-30mki will easily deal with the J-10s/j-11s/j-17s etc. The highest point in India is 8.6 km, the SH can go almost double that, why does it have any problem over Himalayas?? matter of fact with its long range precision bombs its even more effective than the others. its flight ceiling is over 15km, so no worries SH can fly very well in Himalayas.

 

[p2prada]

well why would you use the mrca for air superiority in the first place, even the Rafale, EF will have a lot of trouble when they counter those chinese su-30s and su-27s up close and personal since none of except them except mig-35 can effectively hold its own in a dogfight against the Su-30

LOL. So the best flying planes in Europe are useless against Su-30MKK and Su-27. This is getting hilarious.

and am sure our Bisons which we loose atleast one in a month in crashes is not available in good numbers to counter the masses of J-7, Q-5s, J-17s.

Those masses of J-7s and Q-5s cannot be used against India, especially over the Himalayas with their range.

And I wonder if you are getting our Bison crash rate figures from Pakistan.

yes we do have the mig-21s, mig-29s which can deal with j-10s, j-11s as well no problem, i dont think till PAKFA arrives we have any shortage of air superiority aircraft, the MKI will deal with all chinese 4.5 gen aircraft. MRCA has to be all-rounder.

LCA will counter all 3rd gen and near 4th gen chinese and PAkistani aircraft, mig-29/Su-30mki will easily deal with the J-10s/j-11s/j-17s etc.

There is no such thing as "it will easily deal with any Chinese plane." Every Indian pilot will have to work his a** off to ensure he kills his enemy.

The highest point in India is 8.6 km, the SH can go almost double that, why does it have any problem over Himalayas?? matter of fact with its long range precision bombs its even more effective than the others. its flight ceiling is over 15km, so no worries SH can fly very well in Himalayas.

Exactly why the other contenders are more suitable. They all out perform the SH in all conditions except range. Rafale comes top with a 9.5 tons payload too.

 

[Daredevil]

Field evaluations of Six Fighters begins July

Field evaluations of Six Fighters begins July


The stage is finally set for the long-awaited field evaluations of India's Medium Multirole Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) competition. In July, it all begins, as LiveFist reported in February. The six fighters taking part, for the sake of record, are the Russian UAC MiG-35, the Swedish Saab JAS-39 Gripen NG/IN, the French Dassault Aviation Rafale, the multi-nation EADS Eurofighter Typhoon, the American Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet and the American F-16IN Block 90 Super Viper/Desert Falcon.

The Chief of Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal PV Naik, has been quoted by India Strategic as saying that the no-cost-no-commitment Field Evaluation Test (FET) period will begin with visits by an IAF/ASTE team to each country of origin to inspect the manufacturing and testing facilities. This will be followed by the crucial flight evaluations in India. Each contender is expected to fly in three aircraft for this phase of the trials, which involves test evaluations in Bangalore, Jaisalmer and Leh. According to the Chief, this involves "Bangalore for performance, systems and humidity trials, to Jaisalmer for hot weather and weapon trials, and to Leh for high altitude and cold weather trials".

In India, the aircraft will undergo handling and aerodynamic performance trials, "takeoff and landing characteristics, aircraft maneuvering, and checks of critical systems in the air, an evaluation of its maintainability, mission support equipment, operations at high altitude and in specific environments will also be conducted". Following the India phase of the FET, evaluation teams from the IAF will visit the country of origin of each competing fighter for systems trials, which includes demonstration and testing of radar, EW suites, avionics, cockpit gear, countermeasures, weapons and weapon systems (at designated firing ranges) and communication integration

 

[pppppppp]

I hope the final decision shall be taken before a decade!! This MRCA stuff is going on since 2001 (AFAIK) and even now we don't know which is the selected one and I don't know when it be ready for service. In any eventuality at this point of time, it becomes very difficult to defend. Atleast LCAII comes up soon to replace the bisons, it would be a saving grace.

 

[John]

LOL. So the best flying planes in Europe are useless against Su-30MKK and Su-27. This is getting hilarious.



Those masses of J-7s and Q-5s cannot be used against India, especially over the Himalayas with their range.

And I wonder if you are getting our Bison crash rate figures from Pakistan.



There is no such thing as "it will easily deal with any Chinese plane." Every Indian pilot will have to work his a** off to ensure he kills his enemy.



Exactly why the other contenders are more suitable. They all out perform the SH in all conditions except range. Rafale comes top with a 9.5 tons payload too.

yes in a dogfight the Russian aircraft have a distinct advantage and no denying that. The Mki had a clear close in advantage when it flew against the EF in the UK, the EF simply could not out maneuver the Mki.

Except for the J-7s all the others like mirage 3, mirage 5, Q-5s etc. have ceilings over 15km and the tallest point in India is 8.6 km above sea level, why on earth would they have any trouble flying over Himalayas, the Pakis have the K-2 range and do u really believe they have no training flying over mountains, The Chinese have some mountain ranges and their training is pretty good. And Pakis don't have the Bison, either way our crash record is the worst for any airforce in the world and news of Chinese air crashes are rare. And we loose a lot of aircraft during normal peace time, we are bound to loose a lot more during war-time where maintenance time is shortened, more sorties, etc.

any fight with the Chinkis or Pakis wont be easy and combat is always intense but our Mkis, mig-29s, mirages, bisons will be able to counter threats from China because we have a lot of experience training in high threat environments, different air forces and our tactics are superior.

The Rafale's 9.5 ton useful combat weight is still useless when it can only carry 3, 1000kgs bombs, every other aircraft can carry 4. Which means only 3 weapons station have the ability to carry over 1000kgs loads, even LCA has 3 stations that can carry upto 1200kgs. The Rafale can still only carry upto 8 A2A missiles which is again not even close to the 12 A2A missiles that the SH can carry, all that extra 1.5 tons it carries has no relevant advantage because the SH can still carry over 20 SDBs. SH is also the only aircraft that can theoretically carry the Brahmos if integration is permitted, all the others are simply too flimsy to carry the 2.5 ton, 10 m long missile.

The SH is shorter than the SH and hence we may not be able to integrate the Nirbhay on the Rafale which is a whopping 6 meters long, the SH is long and strong enough to theoretically carry upto 4 Nirbhays. I have repeatedly shown the SH can deploy better, longer range and effective weapons again at much lower prices and ideal to deal with heavy numbers that our neighbors can threaten us with. The SH if armed with Meteor will give it First shot ability and once launched it is known that the missile has a no-escape sure kill zone of 80km, so if the threat can't outrun that missile in the first 10 to 15 km during its flight, the threat no matter which 4.5 gen aircraft it is, is dead. Chances are that any of those Chinki and Paki threats wont even detect the missile launch till its too late.

 

[p2prada]

yes in a dogfight the Russian aircraft have a distinct advantage and no denying that. The Mki had a clear close in advantage when it flew against the EF in the UK, the EF simply could not out maneuver the Mki.

Yeah Right! And you were there watching it right.

Except for the J-7s all the others like mirage 3, mirage 5, Q-5s etc. have ceilings over 15km and the tallest point in India is 8.6 km above sea level, why on earth would they have any trouble flying over Himalayas, the Pakis have the K-2 range and do u really believe they have no training flying over mountains, The Chinese have some mountain ranges and their training is pretty good. And Pakis don't have the Bison, either way our crash record is the worst for any airforce in the world and news of Chinese air crashes are rare. And we loose a lot of aircraft during normal peace time, we are bound to loose a lot more during war-time where maintenance time is shortened, more sorties, etc.

There is something called Turbulence. Also, something in physics due to which a range and payload limitation is naturally imposed when taking off from a high altitude. Go research some more.

any fight with the Chinkis or Pakis wont be easy and combat is always intense but our Mkis, mig-29s, mirages, bisons will be able to counter threats from China because we have a lot of experience training in high threat environments, different air forces and our tactics are superior.

What's that gotta do with the MRCA.

The Rafale's 9.5 ton useful combat weight is still useless when it can only carry 3, 1000kgs bombs, every other aircraft can carry 4. Which means only 3 weapons station have the ability to carry over 1000kgs loads, even LCA has 3 stations that can carry upto 1200kgs. The Rafale can still only carry upto 8 A2A missiles which is again not even close to the 12 A2A missiles that the SH can carry, all that extra 1.5 tons it carries has no relevant advantage because the SH can still carry over 20 SDBs. SH is also the only aircraft that can theoretically carry the Brahmos if integration is permitted, all the others are simply too flimsy to carry the 2.5 ton, 10 m long missile.

The Rafale has 14 hardpoints compared to SH's 11. Out of those 14, 5 are for heavy weapons and fuel tanks. So, go do the math.

The Rafale can carry 3 external tanks, 4 MICA's and 12 1000 pounders. That gives it an effective combat radius of 1100km.

All that talk on Brahmos is a waste of time. Carrying the Brahmos is not something any fighter except the Su-30 can do. Even the SH is flimsy because of its high wing loading and bad agility.

The SH is shorter than the SH

100% weed.

and hence we may not be able to integrate the Nirbhay on the Rafale which is a whopping 6 meters long, the SH is long and strong enough to theoretically carry upto 4 Nirbhays. I have repeatedly shown the SH can deploy better, longer range and effective weapons again at much lower prices and ideal to deal with heavy numbers that our neighbors can threaten us with. The SH if armed with Meteor will give it First shot ability and once launched it is known that the missile has a no-escape sure kill zone of 80km, so if the threat can't outrun that missile in the first 10 to 15 km during its flight, the threat no matter which 4.5 gen aircraft it is, is dead. Chances are that any of those Chinki and Paki threats wont even detect the missile launch till its too late.

Nirbhay on a fighter. Where did you get that. And can you show me all those equations you invented that gave SH the ability to theoretically carry 4 Nirbhays. Do you see any Tomahawks on the SH? And where did you get those figures for the Meteor. Once again farting your way to glory. Stop making stuff up.

If the SH is supposed to be so wonderful and alien like technology. I wonder why the USAF does not use it. SH can carry more than the Viper. SH has a greater range than the Viper. SH is more stealthy than the Viper(because of Boeing's stealthy RCS reductions). SH maintenance is as easy as the Viper. The ECM suite on the SH is more powerful than on the Viper. But, all this is useless in USAF eyes. I wonder why?

Nobody wants the SH. Even USN hates it the first time they were asked to throw away all the F-14s and make way for the Hornets. They were actually disappointed with the Hornet. Now they are all gung ho about the F-35, even though it is a single engined plane.

 

[John]

haha turbulence, firstly drag is much higher at higher altitude, which is why the Jag flies at transonic speed at very low levels. maneuverability sucks at high altitude.

domain-b.com : Work afoot on long-range, subsonic cruise missile, Nirbhay: DRDO

Nirbhay is being built for all 3 services and i am sure the MRCA, the MKI will be integrated to fire it. It is light enough to be carried by a fighter.

The SH was born out of naval requirement and hence USAF never really needed it coz they have the F-15, The F-15 SE still remains undefeated in real combat with over 100 kills, missiles simply wont be able to touch the F-15SE because of its speed, it will out run everything in the air even if fired upon. besides the F-15 is much much more capable in weapons and payload, hands down. With its AESA, new EW suite and Aim-120D, it becomes even more effective.

obviously when f-14s had been taken out for the Hornets and SHs, people were not happy because all that thrust, range is not necessary because of the long range weapons it deploys. Besides the new engine will boost the SH's thrust and range by 20%. the F-35's top speed is mach 1.6, why i wonder is the USAF reducing its top speed, F-35 doesn't have TVC, i wonder why, they have that tech for a long time, they can put all that in, but its useless because this is the age of BVR kills.

The fact remains any aerial threat approaching the Carriers are first neutralized by AEGIS which can destroy threats out to over 500km because they have the longest reach, if anything is left from the carnage the SH wipes them out. Its the same in our case any threat coming into our territory will be shot down by Spyder SAMs, Akash, MR-SAM etc which are being put in specific locations to prevent low level incursions. By the time the aircraft actually are scrambled and reach the border zone, most of the incoming threats will be washed out by the SAMS. Rafale indeed has 5 stations for heavy weapons but it can only carry 3, 2000lbs bombs which is one less than the SH. The SH can carry over 20 SDBs and hit hardened, moving or stationary targets out to a much longer range without having to get closer to the enemy. Rafale has to get close to drop its payload of PGMs again Paveways, ASSM, JDAM. SH can fire the JDAM-ER to over 90km, SDBs to 100km, AAGRM which is the best radar buster in its class, Rafale drops the inferior HARM and MArte. put two super hornets together, one G-variant with heavy jammers and one armed to teeth with 12 A2A missiles, the battlefield is clear of any possible threat, the jammers so powerful, the enemy can't track our aircraft, they hence become easy pickings for the SH. Rafale can't compare to the SH in its netcentricity or maturity of its radar or the roles it can play. SH is still the mother of all multiroles. The SH using its A2A missiles and its AESA can track and shoot down incoming enemy A2A missiles that threaten its survival. Besides it carries more missiles as well which gives the pilot the ability to expend multiple shots if necessary to ensure kills at long ranges. The chances of SH getting into a dogfight in real combat is remote. LCA will be the fighter that plays those immediate interception and scramble roles just like the mig-21Bison does it now, Mig-29s play point defence roles and Mki is used for air superiority, with these working in tandem SH remains safe and free to pound heavy numbers at low cost which our arch enemy boasts.

moreover SH will also have added abilities with the P-8 which is like the ideal partner for maritime snooping, attack and defense.