MMRCA news and discussions.

[Sridhar]

United Arab Emirates Closing in on Rafale | AVIATION WEEK

For the time being, the question of funding the M88 upgrade, estimated to cost 250-300 million euros, remains unresolved. So far, the French government says it has no requirement for the higher-thrust version, which means the UAE would have to pick up the tab - perhaps along with other interested customers like Kuwait, with a similar requirement. But the government had initially dragged its feet at funding the AESA, forcing industry to bear the cost of development through deferral of a six-aircraft Rafale order, only to reinstate the order last year.


apparently the new higher thrust engine for Rafale is un-funded..ohhh may be the F-4 is way out of our league, what a load of crap, it will certainly loose if more costs are added.

The same way UAE funded the APG-68 radar as part of the Block 60 deal.

X posting

The UAE deal moves forward

19/06/2009

Urgent: the Emirates say yes to the Rafale, but discuss the price

The United Arab Emirates have just sent to the french government "technical and operational specifications for the purchase of the Rafale. Clearly, the aircraft french is really approved by the UAE armed forces, who wish to acquire sixty combat aircraft of a more modern version than that in use in France, including a radar and more powerful engines. However, the UAE news agency WAM, who announced this morning the news, "the date of signing the contract will be fixed depending on the outcome of financial negotiations."

French side, it is estimated that this is good news and an important step. After the recent visit of the President of the Republic in the Emirates, industrialists hoped french but does not believe such an announcement during the Paris Air Show, held at this time.

The financial discussions will now take place between the Government and Emirates Industrial french (Dassault, Thales, Safran for the most part). The estimated amount of the contract is between six and eight billion euros.
http://secretdefense.blogs.liberatio...e-le-prix.html

RAFALE / Émirats: Negotiations are progressing

AFP, 19/06/2009

Of "substantial progress" had been made on the export of sixty Rafale United Arab Emirates, the contract could be concluded before the end of the year, it was learned Friday from a French source close to the record. "On hopes to sign before the end of the year and perhaps as early as mid-November at the fair in Dubai ", it said the same source as the Rafale, never sold for export, is once again the one of the stars of the Air Show and Space Bourget.

The Emirate News Agency WAM reported Friday that the armed forces of the United Arab Emirates had submitted to the Government french their technical and operational specifications for aircraft Rafale. The Emirates had announced in 2008 that they were considering "seriously" to replace its 60 Mirage 2000 combat aircraft the latest Dassault.

"The President of the Republic, following closely the developments of the ongoing negotiations with the United Arab Emirates for the acquisition of 60 Rafale aircraft, welcomed the advance of the dossier as just announced the Government of the federation of the UAE ", said shortly after the Elysée in a statement." (...) This announcement is great news for France and its aviation industry. It confirms the excellent qualities of the Rafale. It is also the mark the close links between France and the UAE, "the communiqué.

"They have asked us for improvements (Rafale), which we agree, some will be funded by the Emirates and other, more generic, we appear reasonable," according to the same source. "It will be a great satisfaction when the contract is signed but it shows that the aircraft is at the best international standard and will export policy is crucial, "stresses that source. The changes requested would include engines, that the emirates would like more powerful, and radar.
the nexs is in many others french newspaper /press

Quote:
Economy
The sale of Rafale in the United Arab Emirates is close

By Matthias Blamont and Benoit Van Overstraeten

PARIS / ABU DHABI (Reuters) - The prospect of a first sale of Rafale for export has become a little more concrete Friday while the United Arab Emirates have sent to France their equipment requirements of the aircraft french fighter.

The Elysée was immediately welcomed the breakthrough in the case, adding follow with attention the progress of the negotiations underway with the United Arab Emirates for the acquisition of 60 Rafale aircraft. "

"We welcome the progress made and progress of discussions between our company and the UAE. We remain attentive to customer demands and we put every effort to meet its needs in the shortest possible time", said its share to Reuters a spokesman for Dassault Aviation.

Earlier this month, the French presidency said that discussions had been held between the UAE and France for the possible replacement of the Mirage 2000 from the Air Force emirate by Rafale, manufactured by Dassault Aviation, a contract estimated at between six and eight billion euros.

Earlier in the morning, WAM, the public news agency of the United Arab Emirates, said that "the french government had received the technical specifications and operational requirements of the Rafale by the armed forces of the United Arab Emirates as part of negotiations way between the french and Emirati governments.

"The date of the signing of the agreement (...) should be set at the conclusion of the financial negotiations", said the agency.

"The President of the Republic, following closely the developments of the ongoing negotiations with the United Arab Emirates for the acquisition of 60 Rafale aircraft, welcomed the advance of the folder as just announced the Government of the federation of the UAE ", the Elysee said in a statement.

"This announcement, which occurs at the Paris Air Show celebrates its centenary, is good news for France and its aviation industry. It confirms the excellent qualities of the Rafale. It is also the mark of the close links between France and the UAE ", yet we read in the press release.

The Rafale fighter "multirole" is currently in use only in the Air Force and French Navy.

At the end of May, the head of the Indian Air Force said that the Rafale could eventually participate in the tender launched by New Delhi for the purchase of 126 fighter planes
http://tempsreel.nouvelobs.com/depec...rapproche.html

 

[Sridhar]

LE BOURGET (Seine-Saint-Denis), (AFP) - The United Arab Emirates announced that it had given to France their "technical requirements" for the Rafale, a breakthrough in the negotiations for the sale of fighter aircraft, which could be exported for the first time outside France this year.

The President of the Republic Nicolas Sarkozy Friday welcomed the "advanced file" and spoke of an "excellent news". The Emirates had announced in 2008 that they were considering "seriously" to replace them from 2013 sixty Mirage 2000 by the latest combat aircraft from Dassault Aviation.

The Emirates have now submitted their "technical requirements" for the Rafale, which they want a more modern than that operating in the French armies.

It is "the first phase before entering the financial negotiations", according to a French source close to the dossier, which assesses the potential contract of six to ten billion euros. "

The Delegate General for Armaments of the Ministry of Defense french, Laurent Collet-Billon, said for his part hoped "a contract signed in 2009, in an interview with Les Echos.

This could for example be at the Dubai Air Show, held from 15 to 19 November, said the French source.

Concerning the requirements for an improved aircraft, the engine manufacturer Snecma already stated working on more powerful engines for this contract. The Rafales emirates could have a surge of 9 tonnes against 7.5 tons for aircraft french.

The customer also wants the missile air-air long-range Meteor, a European art weapons, according to industry sources. The missile group MBDA is not yet in use in European armies.

The Emirates also want the radar, built by Thales, a model is more sophisticated and more powerful than that the team had french.

"All that is technical advance. We do everything to meet the technical needs of customers," said Dassault Aviation CEO Charles Edelstenne au salon du Bourget.

The public position taken by the Emirates Friday shows that "things are moving" even if "it is not over," said Edelstenne.

Dassault had warned that there would be no announcement of orders for its Rafale Le Bourget but "contacts" with potential foreign customers, which would advance folders.

If these negotiations should lead, Abu Dhabi would be the first foreign customer of the Rafale.

Despite contacts with India, Libya, Switzerland, Greece and Brazil in particular, the manufacturer has not yet been able to export its combat aircraft. Under the contracts, it is in competition with the European Eurofighter, the Swedish Gripen, the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet and F-16 United States or the Russian MiG.

Discussions with the Emirates are also on the pattern of their resumed sixty Mirage 2000, the highest standard and more modern than the Mirage french, that they would be separated in case of purchase of the Rafale. The government progressed on this point, Judge Edelstenne.

President Nicolas Sarkozy tried to push forward the highly political issue of the sale of the Rafale when it went in late May in the Emirates to inaugurate a French military base. The two countries are also bound by a defense agreement, renewed during the visit of Mr Sarkozy.
http://www.liberation.fr/depeches/01...s-negociations

 

[Sridhar]

Paris air show - Rafale demo video

Dailymotion - Démonstrateur Rafale 2009 - une vidéo Hi-Tech et Science

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bfe4N...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLN1O...eature=related


official video

http://www.dassault-aviation.com/fr/aviation/salon-du-bourget-2009/videos.html

 

[pppppppp]

I feel F16 is also a very good platform. Especially if we get the XL format of it. One thing we also need to look at is the platform which can be used for both IAF and Navy. As far I see only F18, Rafale and Eurofighter perform these roles. That is the reason, probably F16, Grippen might not fit the ball. Mig-35 may have a variant like the K ones they are delivering for the Navy.

 

[Singh]

I feel F16 is also a very good platform. Especially if we get the XL format of it.

XL was shelved

One thing we also need to look at is the platform which can be used for both IAF and Navy. As far I see only F18, Rafale and Eurofighter perform these roles. That is the reason, probably F16, Grippen might not fit the ball. Mig-35 may have a variant like the K ones they are delivering for the Navy.

IN's requirements are different from IAF's.
F18, Rafale and Typhoon will not be able to fly from IN's IACs.

 

[pppppppp]

But they are looking for a common platform now as per the official statements.

IN's requirements are different from IAF's.
F18, Rafale and Typhoon will not be able to fly from IN's IACs.

If both of above statements are true, then MIG-35 is a clear winner!!!

 

[Singh]

But they are looking for a common platform now as per the official statements.If both of above statements are true, then MIG-35 is a clear winner!!!

which statements I haven't read 'em.

The technical bids have already been submitted, trials are about to take place and as per those requirements India is not looking for a common platform

 

[pppppppp]

Do you mean Naval air force will not get any MMRCA? I thought it is the same MMRCA for both Airforce and Navy.

 

[Singh]

Do you mean Naval air force will not get any MMRCA? I thought it is the same MMRCA for both Airforce and Navy.

MMRCA is only for the IAF.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

mig-35 is a varient of mig-29 which is serving IAF for about 20 yeats now , how can be said that " The Mig-35 is rather untested."..

Mig-35 is saild to untested because it use completely new avionics. Mig-35 and Mig-29 have very less things in common. The only thing common is the air-frame, so speaking about less logistics is complete BS.
Mig-35 uses completely new avionics, radar, engines, processors,etc. and most of them are untested,some are also completed in a hurry and hence they Mig-29 and Mig-35 are different.
I read on a Russian web-site that they(Mig-35) use different maintaince equiptment than that of Mig-29.
Mig-35 if customized like Su-30 then it can also be a very good air-craft but it will be costly and time consuming.
Mig-35 may be good but EF-2000 and F-18 are better.

 

[luckyy]

Mig-35 is saild to untested because it use completely new avionics. Mig-35 and Mig-29 have very less things in common. The only thing common is the air-frame, so speaking about less logistics is complete BS.
Mig-35 uses completely new avionics, radar, engines, processors,etc. and most of them are untested,some are also completed in a hurry and hence they Mig-29 and Mig-35 are different.
I read on a Russian web-site that they(Mig-35) use different maintaince equiptment than that of Mig-29.
Mig-35 if customized like Su-30 then it can also be a very good air-craft but it will be costly and time consuming.
Mig-35 may be good but EF-2000 and F-18 are better.

the current upgrade progran of MIG-29 cantain everything that the MIG-35 has i.e new avionics, radar, engines,...

so it won't be wrong to say that MIG-35 is very well already tested by IAF..

 

[luckyy]

DarkSorrow,

if possible please continue with the upadate you were giving on all the 6 mmrca contenders, and how they are being perceived by the technical evaluation team that you giving prior to your exams.

thanks.

DarkSorrow is some insider ?

i too like to know how the six contenders being perceived by the technical evaluation team ..

 

[John]

the Rafale, F-16In and F-18In are good for sea strike roles as well, the viper can carry Harpoon, JSOW-C, maverick so can the SH, Rafale can deploy the maverick, harpoon and exocet. SH is better coz it can deploy the AAGRM anti radar missile can take out shut down radars, SH will also be the first deploy the next gen Joint air to ground missile designed to replace the Maverick, can be used on tanks, buildings, bunkers, small boats and cruisers etc. MRCA is indeed for IAF but you can be sure that a couple of squadrons of the mrca will be purely dedicated for maritime defense and attack.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

the current upgrade progran of MIG-29 cantain everything that the MIG-35 has i.e new avionics, radar, engines,...

so it won't be wrong to say that MIG-35 is very well already tested by IAF..

Tell me one thing why would Russians sell their best avionics used on Mig-35 before MMRCA is over. If they can earn 10,000 cr. after they sell a complete aircraft why would the sell few of its part for few crores. They can give a condition that if u buy Mig-35 we would also update ur 29s to the 35s standard.
The fact is the Mig-35 has completely a different internal structure. Only due to lack of finance they had to fix all the new stuff in an old air-frame.
This is tie same reason we go for joint development. Why would MDBA or Israel sell their state of art seekers when they can earn more money by selling a missile.

 

[luckyy]

the Rafale, F-16In and F-18In are good for sea strike roles as well, the viper can carry Harpoon, JSOW-C, maverick so can the SH, Rafale can deploy the maverick, harpoon and exocet. SH is better coz it can deploy the AAGRM anti radar missile can take out shut down radars, SH will also be the first deploy the next gen Joint air to ground missile designed to replace the Maverick, can be used on tanks, buildings, bunkers, small boats and cruisers etc. MRCA is indeed for IAF but you can be sure that a couple of squadrons of the mrca will be purely dedicated for maritime defense and attack.

in close combat exercises teens are beaten by Rafale , Gripen , mig-29 ...i do not heard about eurofighter but i am sure that it can also beat ..

it means like jaguars , if IAF buy teens , they will be also needing mig-29 for excort ..

 

[Dark Sorrow]

the Rafale, F-16In and F-18In are good for sea strike roles as well, the viper can carry Harpoon, JSOW-C, maverick so can the SH, Rafale can deploy the maverick, harpoon and exocet. SH is better coz it can deploy the AAGRM anti radar missile can take out shut down radars, SH will also be the first deploy the next gen Joint air to ground missile designed to replace the Maverick, can be used on tanks, buildings, bunkers, small boats and cruisers etc. MRCA is indeed for IAF but you can be sure that a couple of squadrons of the mrca will be purely dedicated for maritime defense and attack.

Man u r completely write. The -ve (negative) aspect for Rafale and SH is that they have hardly faced a real air threat even USN uses SH for SEAD role leaving arial threats to USAF. SH is the best bird ever built for SEAD operations. I have feeling that SH will win the MMRCA just on its SEAD capabilities. Just observing the improvement taking place Pakistan and Chinese air-defences we would lack a planes for SEAD operation. Mig-27 and Jaguar are close air support planes and are not good for SEAD operation. Even MKI can't be compaired with SH when it comes to SEAD operations.

 

[p2prada]

Why would MDBA or Israel sell their state of art seekers when they can earn more money by selling a missile.

If MBDA and Israel are in a competitive bid for seekers, then they will sell their tech. Because if one wins the other loses and nobody wants to lose in the world of Business.

The JVs are primarily to carry out development work in India under DRDO and co.

 

[Daredevil]

Man u r completely write. The -ve (negative) aspect for Rafale and SH is that they have hardly faced a real air threat even USN uses SH for SEAD role leaving arial threats to USAF. SH is the best bird ever built for SEAD operations. I have feeling that SH will win the MMRCA just on its SEAD capabilities. Just observing the improvement taking place Pakistan and Chinese air-defences we would lack a planes for SEAD operation. Mig-27 and Jaguar are close air support planes and are not good for SEAD operation. Even MKI can't be compaired with SH when it comes to SEAD operations.

What components of an aircraft make it better at SEAD operations but not an air-superiority aircraft. For example let's compare SH and Rafale's SEAD capabilities.

Thanks

 

[p2prada]

Man u r completely write. The -ve (negative) aspect for Rafale and SH is that they have hardly faced a real air threat even USN uses SH for SEAD role leaving arial threats to USAF. SH is the best bird ever built for SEAD operations. I have feeling that SH will win the MMRCA just on its SEAD capabilities. Just observing the improvement taking place Pakistan and Chinese air-defences we would lack a planes for SEAD operation. Mig-27 and Jaguar are close air support planes and are not good for SEAD operation. Even MKI can't be compaired with SH when it comes to SEAD operations.

The SH works in the US because they have other equipment that works in tandem to make SEADs successful(Read Growler!). Nevertheless, the SH and Rafale have only carried out SEAD operations against an enemy without any ability to fire back. Ironic calling it SEAD.

All the contenders capabilities are untested against any worthwhile enemy. Saddam isn't one of them.

SH is not capable of carrying out SEAD operations independently like Rafale, EF-2000. Presently only Rafale and EFT are capable enough in conducting independent operations against an enemy equipped with F-16s in the west and Flankers in the North & East.

You can't send a SH into a Flanker territory and expect it to come back. SH will need escorts, unlike Rafale and EF. Gripen, less range. But, it will still come on top in survival compared to Viper, Mig-35 and SH.

The only ability the SH has is range and payload.

 

[p2prada]

What components of an aircraft make it better at SEAD operations but not an air-superiority aircraft. For example let's compare SH and Rafale's SEAD capabilities.

Thanks

Small RCS and EW. Simple. Rafale wins hands down in both categories.