MMRCA 2.0: News & Discussions

[Prashant12]

Stop sidetracking... You were pointing out price as an inhibitive issue... When it certainly isnt so... Any weapon including cutting edge tech manufactured in india is bound to be more expensive than weapons/platforms produced in other countries.. Eg. Su Mki ..
Even after paying a premium over average prices on a certain kind of weapon for indigenization ... If the forces get platform/weapon that underperform, then it'll be worthwhile to buy more weapons from established OEM ... All the chest thumping from indigenized products may go to waste if our forces can't deploy these weapons for their required missions with acceptable success rate..

Stop comparing apples with orange!
You cannot Supersonic Brahmos with subsonic Scalp missile. The only missile that compares with Scalp is nirbhay missile.
Your claimed 'Scalp has a range of more than 1000 km'...... even nirbhay has more than 1000km range. But since its still under development, india purchased limited no of Scalp for Rafale jets.

https://www.livefistdefence.com/201...-plans-for-indias-nirbhay-cruise-missile.html

 

[Sancho]

These guys want to continue their screwdriver jobs

On the contrary, MMRCA or FGFA would have not only provided funds for own developments like HTT 40, IMRH, or civil aviation projects, to make HAL independent from government funds, it also would have gave them and most of Indian industry a huge technological gain.

Also when private companies like Tata, Reliance and Co look for basic offset work, because it's profitable, why shouldn't HAL look for similar benefits too? Being dependent on government orders and now ADA for successfull developments, is a major limitation for HAL. That's why they went into the Civil aviation sector with the Do 228, or jointly develop, market and produce the advanced Hawk with BAE. That's necessary diversification and certainly a good move, but cancelling already cleared projects and changing procurement policy against HAL, not for fair competition, is a big problem for them and shows the limited support by the government. Any lay offs of employees, therefore is the responsibility of the government.

 

[Sancho]

No. I am calling you troll. Air Chief has given commitement of 324 Tejas Jets.

Hilarious how desperate you are, even ignoring the Air Chief, just to not admit that you (once again) were wrong.

 

[Prashant12]

Hilarious how desperate you are,

Hilarious how desperate you are, that you have to quote congress mouthpiece 'Saaf_ Baat' to prove point.

even ignoring the Air Chief, just to not admit that you (once again) were wrong.

Mr Troll, Practice what you preach.

IAF Air Marshal who led Rafale negotiations under UPA Govt now puts out sharp 10-point rebuttal to Congress over why the new deal is better.


Why are you ignoring Air Marshal who led Rafale negotiations under UPA Govt believes that new deal is better. But for you it was bad deal.

 

[Prashant12]

On the contrary, MMRCA or FGFA would have not only provided funds for own developments like HTT 40, IMRH, or civil aviation projects, to make HAL independent from government funds, it also would have gave them and most of Indian industry a huge technological gain.

Good Joke!

Also when private companies like Tata, Reliance and Co look for basic offset work, because it's profitable, why shouldn't HAL look for similar benefits too? Being dependent on government orders and now ADA for successfull developments, is a major limitation for HAL. That's why they went into the Civil aviation sector with the Do 228, or jointly develop, market and produce the advanced Hawk with BAE. That's necessary diversification and certainly a good move, but cancelling already cleared projects and changing procurement policy against HAL, not for fair competition, is a big problem for them and shows the limited support by the government. Any lay offs of employees, therefore is the responsibility of the government.

No need! we have our own NAL Saras which is indigenous unlike imported Do 228.

Saras small passenger aircraft will be in commercial use in 3 years: Harsh Vardhan

https://economictimes.indiatimes.co...-years-harsh-vardhan/articleshow/65391568.cms

SARAS completes the second test-flight successfully; Indian Air Force commits to induct 15 aircrafts initially

http://pib.nic.in/newsite/PrintRelease.aspx?relid=176701

 

[Sancho]

Why are you ignoring Air Marshal who led Rafale negotiations under UPA Govt believes that new deal is better. But for you it was bad deal.

Because he is talking about the contract details of a fully negotiated deal Vs deal that neither under UPA, nor NDA reached a similar stage.
While I point to the fact that nearly every IAF Chief confirms that 36 fighters alone are not enough and that it doesn't give our industry ToT and a licence production. So there is no problem for him to defend the outcome of the contract negotiations, or the capability of the fighter itself (which nobody has questioned anyway), but that doesn't take away the facts, that the MMRCA requirement was for 126 fighters + licence production under ToT!

Simple logic of what we wanted and what we actually got.

 

[Sancho]

SASMOS DELIVERS 1000TH F/A-18 ELECTRICAL PANEL ASSEMBLY TO BOEING

...Our partnership with SASMOS and this delivery demonstrates yet again, that Indian suppliers are becoming an integral part of Boeing's global supply chain," said Pratyush Kumar, President, Boeing India. "Through suppliers like SASMOS, Boeing has already created a significant supplier footprint in India that can successfully execute the proposed F/A-18 Super Hornet Make in India program...

http://www.sps-aviation.com/news/?i...th-F/A-18-electrical-panel-assembly-to-Boeing

 

[Prashant12]

Because he is talking about the contract details of a fully negotiated deal Vs deal that neither under UPA, nor NDA reached a similar stage.

So you finally accept deal never reached under UPA. So why are you blaming NDA then ?

While I point to the fact that nearly every IAF Chief confirms that 36 fighters alone are not enough and that it doesn't give our industry ToT and a licence production. So there is no problem for him to defend the outcome of the contract negotiations, or the capability of the fighter itself (which nobody has questioned anyway), but that doesn't take away the facts, that the MMRCA requirement was for 126 fighters + licence production under ToT!

Execuses!

Due high cost of Rafale & Dassualt's reluctance on responsibility as RFP (which you have admitted in this forum), the govt had no other options but to cancel MMRCA.

36 Rafale is interim solution for IAF because:

1)Fresh procurement will take at least 4 years for contact to be signed.
2)Production of 272 SU is almost complete.
3)Slow production of LCA.
4)Retirement of Mig 21 & Mig 27.

 

[Sancho]

So you finally accept deal never reached under UPA. So why are you blaming NDA then ?

I never stated otherwise and constantly blamed Dassault for blocking MMRCA negotiations under UPA and NDA.

But the 36 Rafale deal, was a unilateral decision of the PM, "against" IAF and Indian industries interests and that's what makes it a bad deal!

Execuses!

Hehe, you asked, I gave you a fact based answer.

 

[Prashant12]

I never stated otherwise and constantly blamed negotiations under UPA and NDA.

Thanks for finally admitting 'Dassault for blocking MMRCA '.

But the 36 Rafale deal, was a unilateral decision of the PM, "against" IAF and Indian industries interests and that's what makes it a bad deal!

Since you admitting 'Dassault for blocking MMRCA '. The govt had no other options but to cancel MMRCA & fresh procurement will take at least for 4 years from now (till 2022).

The 36 Rafale deal will provide interim solution for IAF (between 2019 to 2022).
More than 72 Indian industries are benefiting from deal including DRDO as well as revival of Kaveri engine.
And this makes it a very good deal.

 

[Sancho]

The govt had no other options but to cancel MMRCA & fresh procurement

And that's what they should have done according to IAF,...

It is important that we should have the MMRCA. I'm not saying it has to be the Rafale. The IAF's requirement is the MMRCA. Rafale is L1 (the lowest price bidder qualified to meet IAF requirements). If it (the contract for Rafale) does not work out, we require a similar aircraft of that variety and capability," Air Chief Marshal Raha said, drawing a nuanced distinction, and creating distance from the Rafale.

http://www.sunday-guardian.com/news/iaf-chief-says-open-to-options-20b-rafale-deal-in-trouble

...but that's not what they did, since the Rafale deal is the opposite of what the Air Chief stated and the MMRCA was cancelled only months after the PMs announcement.

That's the reason this new thread for MMRCA 2.0 is necessary, because we wasted time an money on a bad deal, instead of finding solutions for the MMRCA requirement right away.

 

[Prashant12]

And that's what they should have done according to IAF,...


http://www.sunday-guardian.com/news/iaf-chief-says-open-to-options-20b-rafale-deal-in-trouble

...but that's not what they did, since the Rafale deal is the opposite of what the Air Chief stated and the MMRCA was cancelled only months after the PMs announcement.

That's the reason this new thread for MMRCA 2.0 is necessary, because we wasted time an money on a bad deal, instead of finding solutions for the MMRCA requirement right away.

Bad deal according to you & IAF!

I repeat again:

Since you admitting 'Dassault for blocking MMRCA '. The govt had no other options but to cancel MMRCA & fresh procurement will take at least for 4 years from now (till 2022).

The 36 Rafale deal will provide interim solution for IAF (between 2019 to 2022).
More than 72 Indian industries are benefiting from deal including DRDO as well as revival of Kaveri engine.
And this makes it a very good deal.

instead of finding solutions for the MMRCA requirement right away.

Which solutions tell us please or else just shut up!.

 

[Sancho]

Which solutions tell us please or else just shut up!.

Lol, you don't have to get personal, just because your own sources and your lack of knowledge of the matter keeps proving you wrong all the time.

The solution was and still is an MMRCA deal (as the Air Chief stated), that's why the NDA government went for SE MMRCA first and now made a U turn back to MMRCA 2.0!
But they should have started it in 2015, after cancelling the negotiations with Dassault and without wasting a year for negotiating a bad deal and wasting 9 billions. We don't get that time back and we lack that money in the budget now.

SE MMRCA started in 2015, would had been finished and contracted by now.
Even an MMRCA 2.0 started in 2015, could be in the final stages now, instead of waiting for 2019 to start.

 

[Prashant12]

The solution was and still is an MMRCA deal (as the Air Chief stated), that's why the NDA government went for SE MMRCA first and now made a U turn back to MMRCA 2.0!

Troll, stop repeating same thing again & again.

1)There was no SE MMRCA.
2) You admitted Dassault was blocking MMRCA, this leaves no other option but cancel MMRCA.
3) IAF chief stated 'either Rafale or any other medium class fighter' which is why fresh procurement has been initiated.

But they should have started it in 2015, after cancelling the negotiations with Dassault and without wasting a year for negotiating a bad deal and wasting 9 billions. We don't get that time back and we lack that money in the budget now.

According to you & nobody cares. So keep crying!

SE MMRCA started in 2015, would had been finished and contracted by now.
Even an MMRCA 2.0 started in 2015, could be in the final stages now, instead of waiting for 2019 to start.

There was no SE MMRCA in 2015 due to fear of single vendor situation.

 

[Sancho]

Troll, stop repeating same thing again & again.

:biggrin2: Sorry, I will repeat the facts on and on.

 

[Prashant12]

:biggrin2: Sorry, I will repeat the facts on and on.

Who cares ? It won't make any difference to govt / IAF / 36 Jets.

First you claim 'Dassault was blocking MMRCA' now you say 'solution was and still is an MMRCA'

I understand you feeling the pain.:biggrin2:

So keep crying...................

 

[Immanuel]

Rafale being L-1 is farce, it never was MRCA 1.0 proved it was actually more expensive than the EF's bid, French marketing promise of FULL TOT fell into the ditch and their refusal to provide guarantees on HAL's local assembly etc. (knowing fully this was Cristal clear in the RFP) Screwed it up. The G2G deal should actually have been a competitive negotiation between EF and Rafale and then we would have had the 'optics' of a fair winner.

MRCA 2.0 is a competitive deal and all contenders will have confirmatory retrials, Rafale might have an edge due to G2G deal but others like the F-SH Block 3 also have a good chance especially since politics of the day show that we need to avoid financial confrontations with the US.

Also the F-18 SH block 3 has an advantage in the naval competition (folding wings, Large Panel Displays, Block 2 IRST, 360 situational awareness, stealth pods, next gen datalinks & mission computers, engine commonality with LCA MK-2, uprated engines, wider weapon set)

Sorry Brahmos or Brahmos NG on the Rafale is a fairy tail, not happening. It is still a JV between India & Russia and Russia has a say on where this missile can be integrated. Integrating it on the Rafale means Russian would get access to classified info on Rafale's flight envelopes and the French would get inside info on Russian missile launch parameters, ranges, missile envelopes etc. This is not happening.

Rafale at best can deploy Nirbhay and future weapons made entirely in India like ARM, Astra etc.

 

[bhramos]

F-16 might win....!!! as already brought F-16 lines !!!!

 

[Immanuel]

F-16 might win....!!! as already brought F-16 lines !!!!

They should turn it around and ask for F-35 with local assembly or at least the F-18 SH Block 3, not the F-16.

 

[darshan978]

They should turn it around and ask for F-35 with local assembly or at least the F-18 SH Block 3, not the F-16.

Only f35. no f-16 shit.its already with our enemy and they have mastered everything around this plane... So it will be disaster...