Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

If Tanks have to evolve, which path they should follow?

  • Light Vehicles-Best for mobility

    Votes: 25 7.3%
  • Heavy Armour-Can take heavy punishment.

    Votes: 57 16.7%
  • Modular Design-Allowing dynamic adaptions.

    Votes: 198 58.1%
  • Universal Platform-Best for logistics.

    Votes: 61 17.9%

  • Total voters
    341

Damian

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 20, 2011
Messages
4,836
Likes
2,202
Preatty big IED, but it only slightly damaged this M1, it was put back in service after repairs. However that was in time when TUSK was not ready, so there was no safe seat for driver, if I remember correctly his head was crushed when it hit roof of his compartment. TC also had no luck, he broke his spin.
 

asianobserve

Tihar Jail
Banned
Joined
May 5, 2011
Messages
12,846
Likes
8,556
Country flag
Preatty big IED, but it only slightly damaged this M1, it was put back in service after repairs. However that was in time when TUSK was not ready, so there was no safe seat for driver, if I remember correctly his head was crushed when it hit roof of his compartment. TC also had no luck, he broke his spin.

The driver must have forgot to put on his crash helmet... RIP to him.
 

militarysta

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 20, 2011
Messages
2,110
Likes
789
@methos

I have question - in Your opinnion what is proper penetration value (2000m 90. degree plate) for:

1) DM-13
2) DM-23
Any sources? Suppositions? Known tests?

I would like to improve my APFSDS table, becouse I found rather good info about german experimental 120mm APFSD round (from middle 1970) which can perforated 450mm thick RHA plate from 1000m. So now, I have strong doubts about DM-13 and DM-23 performance...If is possible that
DM-13 achive ~340-360mm RHA for 2000m and DM-23 about 400-420mm RHA for 2000m?
 
Last edited:

Damian

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 20, 2011
Messages
4,836
Likes
2,202
The driver must have forgot to put on his crash helmet... RIP to him.
He had his CVC helmet on head, this is standard protective and communication element of AFV crew member equipment. It is just immposible for any type of helmet (and CVC is preatty though one) to protect head when it's impacting with such acceleration, and acceleration inside vehicle after IED explosion is big, very big, this is why there should be special seats for crew that will protect them and hold in place.
 
Last edited:

Damian

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 20, 2011
Messages
4,836
Likes
2,202
IED was placed under road in canal, it was really big IED, and crew had lucky that it was actually placed in that canal under road. I seen worser things like this when overkill IED exploded under a tank or MRAP.
 

Neil

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 23, 2010
Messages
2,818
Likes
3,546
Country flag
IED was placed under road in canal, it was really big IED, and crew had lucky that it was actually placed in that canal under road. I seen worser things like this when overkill IED exploded under a tank or MRAP.
wow...!! got any videos of it..??please share...
 

Damian

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 20, 2011
Messages
4,836
Likes
2,202
No videos, I saw photos, overkill IED's are nasty things, but big, heavy and difficult to made, there were only 4 or 5 incidents where such IED was specially made to hunt down M1 tanks.

I can describe how it ends after such IED explode. Pressure of explosion is so big that it litterally lifts turret up from hull and throw it off, tanks hull have big structural damages like bented inside hull belly etc.

Turrets are repaired but hull needs replacement, so Joint Systems Manufacturing Center in such case just build a new hull, and repair turret.
 

Neil

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 23, 2010
Messages
2,818
Likes
3,546
Country flag
it missed the tank completely.
yes saya bhai...it did...but the tank was tossed like its a small car or something and its gun just blew off....if IEDs can do such a thing imagine a missile hitting it....
 

Damian

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 20, 2011
Messages
4,836
Likes
2,202
yes saya bhai...it did...but the tank was tossed like its a small car or something and its gun just blew off....
What? I see main gun still attached to tanks turret.
 

sayareakd

Mod
Joined
Feb 17, 2009
Messages
17,734
Likes
18,952
Country flag
Driver of the tank must got shock of his life, if his seat was attach to base of tank.
 

Damian

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 20, 2011
Messages
4,836
Likes
2,202
oh sorry my bad...there something that blows at the same time the tank is tossed so thought its a gun....
Most probably a side skirt.

Driver of the tank must got shock of his life, if his seat was attach to base of tank.
Yes, he died. It was something between 2004 and 2006 when TUSK kit was not ready, so there was not addon belly armor (~100-200mm thick, V shaped) and no safe seat for driver. Also US Army planned to instal such safe seats for crew in turret, but I do not know how it ended.
 

bhramos

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 21, 2009
Messages
25,625
Likes
37,233
Country flag
Russian T-90 Tank fires 3 shots in 13 seconds
 
Last edited by a moderator:

militarysta

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 20, 2011
Messages
2,110
Likes
789
@Russian T-90 Tank fires 3 shots in 13 seconds

Typical marekting BS:
1) first shoot (1s)
2) after that two cycle (2x6,5s)
Of course it have nothing common with reallity - normal typical carussele cycle is longer and depend on:
- place ot the selected round in carussele.
- how old is same autoloader
+ many others

In real life numbers of rounds per minute is the same in western and estern tanks, but in westren tanks when crews are "fresh" "human loader" is slighty faster - ex. in Polish 10 Tk.Bde. they have norm - first 4 round in 20s. (standard to pass the exam for loader). The same when tank is not moving - "human loader" is faster - I saw video when Leo2 shoot 6 times in 28s. :)
Of course auto loader is better when we have radiation after use A-weapon, or when tank crew is therribly tired.
 

methos

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 22, 2011
Messages
799
Likes
304
Country flag
I don't have any values, sorry. But I'm still confused with some things. Zaloga wrote [in his comparision between M1 and Iraqi T-72s) that the M829A1 will only penetrate 57 cm @ 2 km (instead of typical estimates between 60 and 70 cm). If that is true, nothing would speak against 56 cm for the DM 43, imo.

120 DM13 is an unique round, it is the only German APFSDS developed prior the 105 mm DM23 APFSDS with technology from Israel was made (i..e licence procduction of M111 Hetz). But it might incorporate technology from the US shared during MBT-70 development.

Stefan Kotsch wrote on his homepage that it would penetrate 230 mm RHA at 2,2 km - this statment is total bullshit. He must have forgotten some angle, as the typical penetration of 105 mm APDS with WC core was about 250 mm at 2 km. The early 115 mm APFSDS with steel penetrator could penetrate 270 mm RHA at 2 km, while the 120 mm APDS L15 from the L11 gun (with a L/D-ratio of only 6 - 7!) is claimed to penetrate 355 mm RHA at 1 km.

The sub-projectile of the 120 mm DM13 has reportedly a diameter of ~38 mm at the thickest part. If we measure the L/D-ratio by using this diameter and measuring the projectile from tip to end of the fins, it should have a L/D-ratio of ~12.4. But if we use the diameter of the tungsten penetrator (which is below that of the steel-jacket) and do not include the fins, the L/D-ratio will be ~14 - 15. The steel-jacket is an unique feature of the DM13, as it does not cover the whole penetrator, only 3/4, while the front (where the penetration should start) is uncovered. Jane's wrote in their text about the M829 that the XM827 (the US licenced version of the DM13) would not use a two-piece penetrator while the DM13 would - unlucky I don't know wether the "two-piece" refers to the steel-jacket or means that the tungsten penetrator consisted of two smaller ones.

Rolf Hilmes featured in one of his books a comparision between the Leopard 2 (so called 2A0, first batch) and the T-72A, both tanks entered service in 1979/80. Regarding firepower he wrote, that the 120 mm L/44 gun at 540 MPa and the 125 mm L/52 gun at 450 MPa would both release ~10 MJ of muzzle energy.

I would assume that the DM13 penetrated more than the 120 mm L15 APDS from the L11 tank gun, as the joint comparision of the US 105 mm, British 110 mm (being roughly as strong as the L11) and the German 120 mm gun showed that the Rh 120 L/44 did have the best firepower. With estimations I would be rather carefull, but as minimal penetration (or as lower bound estimate) 360 mm at 2 km seems already a little bit low, then the 120 mm APDS would be stronger at 1000 m (or Jane's claimed a too high penetration value, happens sometimes). The 450 mm at 1 km could refer to the DM13, but they could also be achieved using another round. I think that the German army wanted to have a tank round capable of knocking out the T-72 (being the best armoured Soviet tank against KE when the Leopard 2 was developed) at least at 1 km. The CIA believed that the maximum armour thickness of the T-72 turret was 45 cm cast steel, but as the Germans did already some cooperation with Isreal prior buying the M111 (they once imported a captured T-62 from Isreal to compare it with the Leopard 1), it seems possible that the Leopard 2 engineers and the people working at Rheinmetall got quite detailed information at what to penetrate. Kotsch value of 23 cm is very low, but let's assume he forgot an angle... if it would be 60°, the armour penetration would be twice as much... 46 cm (but at more than twice the range) -> doesn't really fit. I believe that the DM13 was at least very close to 38-40 cm at 2 km, which should be close to 45 cm at 1 km. In the end it got a better L/D-ratio (based on penetrator only) and a higher muzzle velocity than the M735/M111, which both penetrate ~35 cm at 2 km.
DM23 has an even smaller diameter and a longer penetrator. It will be better than DM13, how much is questionable.

Regarding DM33/Polish APFSDS replacement:
If DM33 would fail to penetrate 50 cm, why would the government not go and buy modern French/German/Israeli/US ammo - all these countries have at least 2 rounds developed after DM33, which could in theory penetrate more (not sure about first Isreali 120 mm APFSDS) than the wanted 50 cm. I think the government just wants to help it's own defence industry. Don't get me wrong, I don't want to claim that the Polish tests were faked, but a failing forgein rounds is a nice reason for buying homemade ones.
 
Last edited:

Latest Replies

Global Defence

New threads

Articles

Top