Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

[Damian]

we paid for TOT and we are not allowed to use other ammo, that is interesting.

If we are using export version then are those at par with what is used by Russians army ???

Complete BS, You can use any two piece 125mm calliber ammunition for 125mm smoothbore guns of 2A46 family or their Ukrainian version KBA-3.

What ammunition for 125mm smoothbore guns have India? Give me designation names.

 

[sayareakd]

@Damian i am talking about India using Israeli tank ammo.

 

[Damian]

Ok and? If it is designed to be fired from 125mm smoothbore, then no problem here. I completely don't understand the whole complaining thing. There is plenty of different types of ammunition for 125mm smoothbore guns, so no problem here. I would rather complain about 120mm rifled gun that is firing one piece ammo, nobody is manufacturing such ammunition besides India, the man who is standing behind such idea, made one huge stupid decision, cutting IA from different sourec of ammunition.

So in such situation, there will be less problems with T-72's and T-90's than with Arjun's.

 

[Austin]

To an extent you are right Austin, but here he has facts backed up from OFB, let's not discuss the MRCA and F35, it's not related any way

You just have to follow all his T-90 Article , all that he has is sheer hatred and contempt for T-90 nothing less or nothing more , I have not seen or heard worst critique of T-90 , even the Russian General Staff appear Peace Nick in front of him.

I have doubt on the credibility of his source or his write up on T-90 because if you have sheer hatred you cant do justice to your story.

The problem is most Indian will buy his story blindly becuase most perceive that a bad T-90 means automatically a great Arjun tank and that justifies any thing mentioned against T-90 , no honest analysis done on merits of the system.

 

[sayareakd]

how many T90 made in India (not complete knock down kit) made from raw material ?
and does T90 got OFB made gun ??? if yes
when why the hell we paid top $$$ (our tax money ) for TOT from Russia, does it mean Russians screw us big time.

 

[Austin]

His view on the Subject is nothing wrong by most, JSF is the only second 5th gen fighter offered to India and its mature than PAK-FA project, By the time MRCA fully inducted new technology will surface again and we have to update them again.

If you have followed by any small measure JSF development you would have known that the project is badly managed and what it needs now is more money to solve a problem , they cant cancel it because they do not have any thing to replace it with.

Well if the automatic spending measure gets initiated as it should JSF project is in great danger according to US Def Sec Panetta .

Majority of T-90S are imported only 150 made in India, Were are the spare coming from ?, Arjun on the other hand is Indian and majority of its parts manufactured in country, We have production line their is no issue of Tot, The only delays are less order..

Well according to Ajai 60 % of Arjun by cost is imported and no TOT there just direct imports.

The spares of T-90 or T-72 i would think will come from the same place either local or imported if its not economically feseable to make it here

India cannot relay on Imports forever, It have to start from somewhere, AFAIK and see he is on right track..
Of course you can disagree with me..

India imports 70 % of its defence equipment and As far as I can see thats not going to change for a long time , the problem is he finds all that problem with T-90 only.

Even the JSF and MMRCA will be imported and so is Arjun imported but no JSF and Arjun import content is little of his concern. Funny he sugar coats it and say if Arjun gets more order they can get TOT of this import and it would make it cheaper and what exactly have they been doing with T-90 so far ?

 

[Damian]

they cant cancel it because they do not have any thing to replace it with.

They have F-22A, production line is still not closed and an upgrade program is allready rolling in making F-22A even better, not to make that there are some places in hull for even more future upgrades (side radars, DAS).

But this is not a discussion for this thread.

Ok someone will finally give me a designation names of ammunition used by IA for their tanks?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

If you have followed by any small measure JSF development you would have known that the project is badly managed and what it needs now is more money to solve a problem , they cant cancel it because they do not have any thing to replace it with.

Never-less, They already have them in production line as the first came out of the production line few days back..

Well according to Ajai 60 % of Arjun by cost is imported and no TOT there just direct imports.

The spares of T-90 or T-72 i would think will come from the same place either local or imported if its not economically feseable to make it here

Did you missed this:

" P Sivakumar, Director of CVRDE, explains: I am amused at the many who appear to believe that the Arjun is "built entirely of foreign components" that are "hammered together in India". This kind of view is rooted in a deep lack of understanding of the processes of indigenisation. It is true that almost 60% of the cost of the Arjun goes on imported components. Practically all of that goes on just three components — the power pack; the gunner's main sight (GMS); and the gun control equipment (GCE). Almost all the Arjun's other 10,000-odd component are sourced from Indian industry, which is rising to the challenge. More support from the government, in terms of better procurement procedures, would accelerate this. "


If you read abt Project Rhino,The T-72M1 is the backbone of the Indian armoured fleet, over 1700 tanks are believed to be in service. License production was undertaken at the Heavy Vehicles Factory at Avadi, Tamil Nadu. The production ended in mid 80s with enough spare to run them

India imports 70 % of its defence equipment and As far as I can see thats not going to change for a long time , the problem is he finds all that problem with T-90 only.

May be that include Navy and Air-force taking to 70% But not Army..

Logistic is Indian, Most Guns are Indian, Small arm are Indian, Majority of AD is Indian, Aviation is too Indian..

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Ok someone will finally give me a designation names of ammunition used by IA for their tanks?

http://ofb.gov.in/products/data/ammunition/lc/24.htm
[URL="http://ofb.gov.in/products/data/ammunition/lc/25.htm"]http://ofb.gov.in/products/data/ammunition/lc/25.htm
[URL="http://ofb.gov.in/products/data/ammunition/lc/37.htm"]http://ofb.gov.in/products/data/ammunition/lc/37.htm
[URL="http://ofb.gov.in/products/data/ammunition/lc/22.htm"]http://ofb.gov.in/products/data/ammunition/lc/22.htm
[URL]http://ofb.gov.in/products/data/ammunition/lc/23.htm[/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL]

 

[Damian]

Damn... I never seen more fucked up designation system, or rather lack of any logical designation system... :shocked:

 

[p2prada]

I am on a crappy mobile phone. Anyway there are 3 known shell types AMK-38 39 and 40. 38 is the bm42. 39 and 40 are Israeli mk1 and mk2. OFB made an indigenous shell by piecing together the Romanian projectile from mk2 with russian propellant and indian casing. It seems to have failed.

 

[Austin]

Never-less, They already have them in production line as the first came out of the production line few days back..

The problem with JSF is two fold one is the technical issue which i believe they will eventually rectify though it may take more time , the induction of JSF in USAF is now re-scheduled to 2018 , the other problem is purely financial the debt of US is continuously rising and Defence Spending will be slashed , which will have cascading effect on many defence projects including JSF as Panetta said last week.

Did you missed this:

" P Sivakumar, Director of CVRDE, explains: I am amused at the many who appear to believe that the Arjun is "built entirely of foreign components" that are "hammered together in India". This kind of view is rooted in a deep lack of understanding of the processes of indigenisation. It is true that almost 60% of the cost of the Arjun goes on imported components. Practically all of that goes on just three components — the power pack; the gunner's main sight (GMS); and the gun control equipment (GCE). Almost all the Arjun's other 10,000-odd component are sourced from Indian industry, which is rising to the challenge. More support from the government, in terms of better procurement procedures, would accelerate this. "

Thanks but I didnt miss that , what it still says that 60 % of the tank by cost is based on direct imports .... in the end cost is the driving factor , the other is just forward looking statements.

If you read abt Project Rhino,The T-72M1 is the backbone of the Indian armoured fleet, over 1700 tanks are believed to be in service. License production was undertaken at the Heavy Vehicles Factory at Avadi, Tamil Nadu. The production ended in mid 80s with enough spare to run them

I think spares will rarely be an issue for T-72 , even if they decide not to build that capability in India , if Russia is expensive then they can get from Poland or other CIS state there are just too many T-72 in the market to keep it sustaining.

May be that include Navy and Air-force taking to 70% But not Army..

Logistic is Indian, Most Guns are Indian, Small arm are Indian, Majority of AD is Indian, Aviation is too Indian..

Point taken but you know with the list of imports that we are planning to buy much more than last decade , I think the 70 % might just rise or at best continue to remain there. If you ask me its not a good thing. Plus no country has every because a great power by relying on imports.

 

[nitesh]

You just have to follow all his T-90 Article , all that he has is sheer hatred and contempt for T-90 nothing less or nothing more , I have not seen or heard worst critique of T-90 , even the Russian General Staff appear Peace Nick in front of him.

I have doubt on the credibility of his source or his write up on T-90 because if you have sheer hatred you cant do justice to your story.

The problem is most Indian will buy his story blindly becuase most perceive that a bad T-90 means automatically a great Arjun tank and that justifies any thing mentioned against T-90 , no honest analysis done on merits of the system.

Austin, he has came with name and designation of sources, so you can't just flatly label it as hatred. And the problems he has mentioned are known issues, like the thermal imager equipment not working.

It is unfair to label him as hater.

 

[p2prada]

My bad wrt my previous post. It is AMK-338, 339 and 340. The 340 is the Israeli Mk1 shell.

 

[Param]

I just want the army to dump future T90 and order more Arjuns.Atleast Arjun looks like tank. If the Generals want a light tank maybe they should buy something like this

 

[p2prada]

@Nitesh.

Shukla is using information from early 2000s as his source. It is very well known that OFB has gun ToT and that OFB has managed to install Kanchan plates into the armour. It is also very well known that nothing on the T-90 can be sanctioned, even the Catherines.

It is very well known that the Arjun's engines are imported and that the tracks are manufactured under license by L&T. And both can be sanctioned.

@Austin

The problem with Shukla is he is more interested in hits to his blog than actually providing factual information. We know very well that Carlo Kopp is a F-35 hater. But at least he provides reasonable arguments along with unreasonable arguments to back up his claims. If Shukla had actually presented quotes from source from as near as 2009, he would have known that the 150 T-90s produced till date(his claim and is still a good number) could have been done only after ToT was provided.

@Kunal

T-72 production ended at Avadi only in 1998. In the 1997-98 period 92 T-72s were delivered to the IA.

 

[p2prada]

As far as I know and even Shukla mentioned in one of his previous articles. The Catherine FCS issue had been sorted out a long time ago. The Saudi Trials for T-90 saw the Catherine functioning in higher heat than the Summers in Thar.

 

[mayfair]

As far as I know and even Shukla mentioned in one of his previous articles. The Catherine FCS issue had been sorted out a long time ago. The Saudi Trials for T-90 saw the Catherine functioning in higher heat than the Summers in Thar.

p2p, could you provide the precise details of the ToT involved in the T-90 deal? What technology have we received and what is yet stuck in the Indo-Russian sparring? It would help clear confusion on many issues.

Thanks!

 

[p2prada]

p2p, could you provide the precise details of the ToT involved in the T-90 deal? What technology have we received and what is yet stuck in the Indo-Russian sparring? It would help clear confusion on many issues.

Thanks!

We have everything to make the tank. Armour ToT and Gun barrel ToT are the most crucial. But Russia had already transferred gun barrel ToT in the 80s for T-72, for an old gun. The newer gun ToT came to us in 2008. Armour ToT was non negotiable so OFB implanted Kanchan composite armour inside the T-90 instead of the Russian STEF. Only Russian kits came with STEF.

Electronics like Ballistic computer is our own. Sights and some other critical equipment are imported, but of lesser consequence as compared to gun ToT. We have no idea if electronics ToT will be provided or not as production continues. Engine ToT was handed over too. CVRDE had upgraded the old T-72s 840HP engine to 1000HP by themselves. The T-90s newer engine is just a step ahead and a newer engine is being readied which will give 1130HP.

If you compare the Arjun's engine to the T-90s new engine. The T-90 gives 960KW of power at 1130HP while Arjun's engine gives 1030KW at 1400HP.

 

[Param]

^^If we had every thing to make the Tank with all the ToT, why did we assemble CKD and SKD kits instead of building them from scratch?