Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

If Tanks have to evolve, which path they should follow?

  • Light Vehicles-Best for mobility

    Votes: 25 7.3%
  • Heavy Armour-Can take heavy punishment.

    Votes: 57 16.7%
  • Modular Design-Allowing dynamic adaptions.

    Votes: 198 58.1%
  • Universal Platform-Best for logistics.

    Votes: 61 17.9%

  • Total voters
    341

militarysta

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I made stupid mistake about turret sides w Leclerc.
Proper values is ~250mm (for 30. 500mm)



Hull estimates are made by Wiedźmin from otvaga.ru -in my opinion they are correct.
Turret is my own job.
 

Damian

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http://defenceforumindia.com/blogs/damian/655-another-interesting-observaion.html

New entry on my blog.

User of forum СИЛА РОССИИ. Форум сайта «Отвага» (www.otvaga2004.narod.ru) Wiedzmin, made such interesting armor thickness estimation of old T-90 with turret welded from cast elements:


So I found drawing of T-90 and M1A1 that is in proper scale:


So I draw a proper armor placement on M1A1, now we can make armor thickness line, and guess what... it seems that if Wiedzmin estimation is correct, M1A1/M1A2 front turret armor is 1000mm LOS thick! It can be wrong but still...

Ok, we know from several sources that front turret armor was thickened from basic M1 by 9 inches, this is 220-230mm, so if we consider that in M1A1/M1A2 armor is 1000mm thick, when we take out 220-230mm the basic M1 should have front armor ~760-770mm thick.

But if we consider that basic M1 had front turret armor 800mm thick, adding 220-230mm should give us ~1020-1030mm thick front turret armor in M1A1/M1A2.
It gives me a lot of thinking.
What do You think guys?
 

Austin

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Sounds interesting , but I am not too sure one can deduce thickness of armour by just comparing drawing or comparing pictures , there must be some probability of error in such estimation ?
 

p2prada

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There is always error in estimating armour. But it more or less gives a decent picture if not the perfect picture.
 

Damian

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Yup, there is allways error in estimations, and estimations are just to show more or less how thick armor can be. The only 100% numbers would be if we would just messure the damn things in reality. :p
 

sathya

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T-90MBT : Technology transfer, supply of assemblies hit Russian stonewall


India's purchase in 2001 of Russia's T-90S main battle tank (MBT) was touted as a world-class upgrade of our battlefield capabilities at a rock-bottom price. For Rs 3,625 crore, India would get 310 new tanks; a full transfer of technology (ToT) from Russia; and a licence to build 1,000 tanks at the Heavy Vehicle Factory (HVF) in Avadi, Chennai.

A decade later, HVF has built just 150 T-90S tanks, hamstrung by Moscow's obstruction in transferring technology and the Russia-built assemblies needed even for the India-built tanks. With India's production line stymied, the MoD bought 347 more ready-built T-90S tanks in 2007, handing Russia another Rs 4,900 crore. Even today, India's T-90S fleet remains seriously constrained; with war clouds looming after the 26/11 Mumbai terror strike, the army told the government that the strike formations were critically short of equipment.

From multiple interviews with officials who handled this contract, and from a visit to HVF Avadi, Business Standard has pieced together the full saga of the T-90S. It is an account of Russian duplicity in the face of Indian submissiveness. Moscow's readiness to disregard signed contracts was recently highlighted through its additional demands for money for the Gorshkov aircraft carrier. But the T-90S arm-twisting came before that; and constitutes a blow to the heart of Indian defence.



The Embassy of Russia in New Delhi has ignored an email asking for their comments on this issue.

Here is what happened. After the T-90S contract was signed on January 15, 2001, the 310 made-in-Russia tanks began to flow in quickly from Uralvagonzavod, the Russian facility that builds them. But the transfer of technology (ToT) and the supply of assemblies for building the 1,000 tanks in India quickly hit a Russian stonewall.

First it took one and a half years to transfer to India the ToT documents required for building the T-90S in India. The tonnes of documents that finally arrived were found to be in Russian; translating them into English took another one and a half years.

Then HVF officials discovered that Russia had withheld key T-90S technologies without valid reason. This included technology for crucial components like the tank's main gun and a key section of the turret armour. When New Delhi demanded those technologies, Moscow blandly responded that they were secret. To this day, Russia has not transferred full technology for building the T-90S in India.

The MoD has not responded to emailed questions about this issue. But when Business Standard asked MSN Rao, General Manager of HVF Avadi, how the T-90S was being built without these technologies, he confirmed: "We developed the tank gun indigenously in Central Ordnance Depot, Kanpur, and the turret armour component in CVRDE (Combat Vehicles R&D Establishment), Avadi. This is still a sticking point between India and Russia."

That this remains an irritant is evident even from the careful language of MoD press releases. On October 5, 2011, Defence Minister A K Antony met his Russian counterpart, A E Serdyukov, in the apex Indo-Russian Inter-Governmental Commission on Military-Technical Cooperation (IRIGC-MTC). The Indian press release noted, "Shri Antony drew the attention of the Russian side to the vexing issue of delayed export clearances for vital repair equipment for already contracted weapons systems. This has been affecting supplies of defence equipment and spares."

By end-2007, Russia's blockade of contracted T-90S technologies and components had stalled indigenous production for almost seven years. Under pressure from the army for more tanks, the MoD capitulated to Moscow rewarding Uralvagonzavod with an order for 347 more made-in-Russia T-90S tanks. Only after this additional contract was signed did Russia begin supplying components for building the T-90S in HVF.

An Indian Army officer who voiced his frustration to his Russian counterparts recalls the taunting Russian response: "Starting T-72 production took you 10 years. How do you imagine that you will produce the T-90 in just 6-7 years?"

Meanwhile the army was struggling with a more immediate issue. In 2002, poised for war with Pakistan, the army found that the newly inducted T-90S fleet was not battle-worthy. The Thales-Optronika thermal imaging night sights supplied with the T-90S — essential for firing tank weapons at night — proved unable to function in the blistering desert summer. This remains a problem; in 2008 the MoD approached international vendors to air-condition the T-90S.

"If we manage to reduce the temperature by ten degrees, the performance of the electronics will be improved," says Sudhakar K, Joint General Manager, HVF.

Veteran tank commanders ridicule the idea of air-conditioning a tank. "It would add weight, and consume more power from the tank's limited supply. And what happens if the air-conditioning breaks down? Every tank system must function in the environment of the battlefield," says Brigadier (Retired) Vijay Nair, a former armoured brigade commander.

During that crisis with Pakistan, the army also discovered that the T-90S sights were not calibrated to Indian tank ammunition, which was falling well short of the targets that it was fired at. A panicked MoD appealed to the DRDO and other research institutions to re-orient the T-90S's fire control computer to Indian ammunition. Meanwhile, shiploads of tank rounds were ordered from Russia at great cost.

A simultaneous crisis developed around the T-90S's Invar missile, earlier cited as a clinching reason for buying the tank. But the Invar missiles that came were unusable and they were quietly returned to Russia. On March 2, 2006, Antony told Parliament, "The Invar missile on T-90 tank is not a failure. However, the completely knocked down kits received for assembly have been found to be defective."

Russia's status as India's premier arms supplier is being eroded by the US, France, Israel and the UK; and by indigenous advances in areas like tank building that have long been Moscow's stamping ground. The recent success of the indigenous Arjun tank; and any progress in developing the planned Future Main Battle Tank (FMBT), would ensure that the T-90S is the last tank that India buys from Russia.


i hope Russia takes this problem seriously and partner with India...if it wants more deals..
 
Last edited:

Galaxy

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Technology transfer, supply of assemblies hit Russian stonewall

Ajai Shukla / Avadi (chennai) November 28, 2011

India's purchase in 2001 of Russia's T-90S main battle tank (MBT) was touted as a world-class upgrade of our battlefield capabilities at a rock-bottom price. For Rs 3,625 crore, India would get 310 new tanks; a full transfer of technology (ToT) from Russia; and a licence to build 1,000 tanks at the Heavy Vehicle Factory (HVF) in Avadi, Chennai.

A decade later, HVF has built just 150 T-90S tanks, hamstrung by Moscow's obstruction in transferring technology and the Russia-built assemblies needed even for the India-built tanks. With India's production line stymied, the MoD bought 347 more ready-built T-90S tanks in 2007, handing Russia another Rs 4,900 crore. Even today, India's T-90S fleet remains seriously constrained; with war clouds looming after the 26/11 Mumbai terror strike, the army told the government that the strike formations were critically short of equipment.

From multiple interviews with officials who handled this contract, and from a visit to HVF Avadi, Business Standard has pieced together the full saga of the T-90S. It is an account of Russian duplicity in the face of Indian submissiveness. Moscow's readiness to disregard signed contracts was recently highlighted through its additional demands for money for the Gorshkov aircraft carrier. But the T-90S arm-twisting came before that; and constitutes a blow to the heart of Indian defence.
The Embassy of Russia in New Delhi has ignored an email asking for their comments on this issue.

Here is what happened. After the T-90S contract was signed on January 15, 2001, the 310 made-in-Russia tanks began to flow in quickly from Uralvagonzavod, the Russian facility that builds them. But the transfer of technology (ToT) and the supply of assemblies for building the 1,000 tanks in India quickly hit a Russian stonewall.

First it took one and a half years to transfer to India the ToT documents required for building the T-90S in India. The tonnes of documents that finally arrived were found to be in Russian; translating them into English took another one and a half years.

Then HVF officials discovered that Russia had withheld key T-90S technologies without valid reason. This included technology for crucial components like the tank's main gun and a key section of the turret armour. When New Delhi demanded those technologies, Moscow blandly responded that they were secret. To this day, Russia has not transferred full technology for building the T-90S in India.

The MoD has not responded to emailed questions about this issue. But when Business Standard asked MSN Rao, General Manager of HVF Avadi, how the T-90S was being built without these technologies, he confirmed: "We developed the tank gun indigenously in Central Ordnance Depot, Kanpur, and the turret armour component in CVRDE (Combat Vehicles R&D Establishment), Avadi. This is still a sticking point between India and Russia."

That this remains an irritant is evident even from the careful language of MoD press releases. On October 5, 2011, Defence Minister A K Antony met his Russian counterpart, A E Serdyukov, in the apex Indo-Russian Inter-Governmental Commission on Military-Technical Cooperation (IRIGC-MTC). The Indian press release noted, "Shri Antony drew the attention of the Russian side to the vexing issue of delayed export clearances for vital repair equipment for already contracted weapons systems. This has been affecting supplies of defence equipment and spares."

By end-2007, Russia's blockade of contracted T-90S technologies and components had stalled indigenous production for almost seven years. Under pressure from the army for more tanks, the MoD capitulated to Moscow rewarding Uralvagonzavod with an order for 347 more made-in-Russia T-90S tanks. Only after this additional contract was signed did Russia begin supplying components for building the T-90S in HVF.

An Indian Army officer who voiced his frustration to his Russian counterparts recalls the taunting Russian response: "Starting T-72 production took you 10 years. How do you imagine that you will produce the T-90 in just 6-7 years?"

Meanwhile the army was struggling with a more immediate issue. In 2002, poised for war with Pakistan, the army found that the newly inducted T-90S fleet was not battle-worthy. The Thales-Optronika thermal imaging night sights supplied with the T-90S — essential for firing tank weapons at night — proved unable to function in the blistering desert summer. This remains a problem; in 2008 the MoD approached international vendors to air-condition the T-90S.

"If we manage to reduce the temperature by ten degrees, the performance of the electronics will be improved," says Sudhakar K, Joint General Manager, HVF.

Veteran tank commanders ridicule the idea of air-conditioning a tank. "It would add weight, and consume more power from the tank's limited supply. And what happens if the air-conditioning breaks down? Every tank system must function in the environment of the battlefield," says Brigadier (Retired) Vijay Nair, a former armoured brigade commander.

During that crisis with Pakistan, the army also discovered that the T-90S sights were not calibrated to Indian tank ammunition, which was falling well short of the targets that it was fired at. A panicked MoD appealed to the DRDO and other research institutions to re-orient the T-90S's fire control computer to Indian ammunition. Meanwhile, shiploads of tank rounds were ordered from Russia at great cost.

A simultaneous crisis developed around the T-90S's Invar missile, earlier cited as a clinching reason for buying the tank. But the Invar missiles that came were unusable and they were quietly returned to Russia. On March 2, 2006, Antony told Parliament, "The Invar missile on T-90 tank is not a failure. However, the completely knocked down kits received for assembly have been found to be defective."

Russia's status as India's premier arms supplier is being eroded by the US, France, Israel and the UK; and by indigenous advances in areas like tank building that have long been Moscow's stamping ground. The recent success of the indigenous Arjun tank; and any progress in developing the planned Future Main Battle Tank (FMBT), would ensure that the T-90S is the last tank that India buys from Russia.

Technology transfer, supply of assemblies hit Russian stonewall
 

p2prada

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Shukla is reprinting old news.

To this day, Russia has not transferred full technology for building the T-90S in India.
He needs a reality check. OFB says otherwise.
 

p2prada

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India would get 310 new tanks; a full transfer of technology (ToT) from Russia;
Out of which 124 were fully made tanks while the rest were in kits assembled in Avadi.

With India's production line stymied, the MoD bought 347 more ready-built T-90S tanks in 2007
That would make 657 T-90s. The 347 tanks were CKDs.

and a licence to build 1,000 tanks at the Heavy Vehicle Factory
Which we already know...

And also that the first 10 tanks were delivered in Aug, 2009.

HVF has built just 150 T-90S tanks,
So, from Aug, 2009-2011 we built 150 tanks.

Which means from 2001 to 2011, a decade, we have 807 T-90s ready for duty. OMFG! That's better than expected. Is it not?
 

nitesh

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So here it is, we are getting kicked around

The MoD has not responded to emailed questions about this issue. But when Business Standard asked MSN Rao, General Manager of HVF Avadi, how the T-90S was being built without these technologies, he confirmed: "We developed the tank gun indigenously in Central Ordnance Depot, Kanpur, and the turret armour component in CVRDE (Combat Vehicles R&D Establishment), Avadi. This is still a sticking point between India and Russia."
In 2001, we order of 310 direct and then rest assembling

India's purchase in 2001 of Russia's T-90S main battle tank (MBT) was touted as a world-class upgrade of our battlefield capabilities at a rock-bottom price. For Rs 3,625 crore, India would get 310 new tanks; a full transfer of technology (ToT) from Russia; and a licence to build 1,000 tanks at the Heavy Vehicle Factory (HVF) in Avadi, Chennai.
Technology never comes, so even after paying, we have to do work on our own:

Business Standard asked MSN Rao, General Manager of HVF Avadi, how the T-90S was being built without these technologies, he confirmed: "We developed the tank gun indigenously in Central Ordnance Depot, Kanpur, and the turret armour component in CVRDE (Combat Vehicles R&D Establishment), Avadi. This is still a sticking point between India and Russia."

Then in 2007 , pay more or.............

By end-2007, Russia's blockade of contracted T-90S technologies and components had stalled indigenous production for almost seven years. Under pressure from the army for more tanks, the MoD capitulated to Moscow rewarding Uralvagonzavod with an order for 347 more made-in-Russia T-90S tanks. Only after this additional contract was signed did Russia begin supplying components for building the T-90S in HVF.
And then this ridiculous thing of not working in desert, haven't seen any report that it can work without air conditioning, but they are getting ordered any way, well also doesn't work with any other ammunition :D, so not only order tanks, but ammunition too, or else...........

Meanwhile the army was struggling with a more immediate issue. In 2002, poised for war with Pakistan, the army found that the newly inducted T-90S fleet was not battle-worthy. The Thales-Optronika thermal imaging night sights supplied with the T-90S — essential for firing tank weapons at night — proved unable to function in the blistering desert summer. This remains a problem; in 2008 the MoD approached international vendors to air-condition the T-90S.
Really wish the IA wakes up to the crisis, and order more arjuns, then wasting time on these machines
 

Austin

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I think the problem with Ajai Shukla is his sheer contempt for T-90 , all this write up on T-90 is more of a hatred speech with he claiming his sources says this and that.

Ajai is a person of very strong views and conviction and he tends to stick by it , His recent write up had very extereme views on topics , The JSF and Ajrun seems to be on his right side and T-90 and MMRCA on this left , the right being right truth and just and left being bad , wrong and failures.
 

nitesh

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To an extent you are right Austin, but here he has facts backed up from OFB, let's not discuss the MRCA and F35, it's not related any way
 

Kunal Biswas

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Ajai is a person of very strong views and conviction and he tends to stick by it , His recent write up had very extereme views on topics , The JSF and Ajrun seems to be on his right side and T-90 and MMRCA on this left , the right being right truth and just and left being bad , wrong and failures.
His view on the Subject is nothing wrong by most, JSF is the only second 5th gen fighter offered to India and its mature than PAK-FA project, By the time MRCA fully inducted new technology will surface again and we have to update them again..

Majority of T-90S are imported only 150 made in India, Were are the spare coming from ?, Arjun on the other hand is Indian and majority of its parts manufactured in country, We have production line their is no issue of Tot, The only delays are less order..

India cannot relay on Imports forever, It have to start from somewhere, AFAIK and see he is on right track..
Of course you can disagree with me..
 

sayareakd

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we paid for TOT and we are not allowed to use other ammo, that is interesting.

If we are using export version then are those at par with what is used by Russians army ???
 

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