Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

[Damian]

Nano technology is atleast another decade away.

It is used even today! Did You ever hear about AMAP kits for Leopard 2 tanks? They used nano technology for this up-armor kit.

This is what is annoying with you, you have to be educated ob everything and we need to come back to point-1 after you have learnt it. What about the LCH and ALH attack helicopters also the Arjun and T-90 are not far behind NATO, if there is confronation Indian tanks wont be like outdated iraq tanks, they have everything the west has.

LCH and ALH are not comparbale to AH-64D nor to EC Tiger, AH-1W and AH-1Z, AW129, nor to Mi-24 or Mi-28 and Ka-50/Ka-52.

Arjun is still in early 1980's standard for NATO tanks, T-90S is also in some points not in the current NATO standards.

About Arjun tank you did say.

But this is only about AFV design itself, not about India or Indian people. Stop confusing purely technological and technical discussion with discussion about nationality, nations and countries.

They are not polish tanks they are used german tanks.

Yes, Leopard 2A4's are German tanks and? They are good tanks and we are perfectly ok with that, we don't have urgent need to fetish to do everything by our own. When there will be more money Wilk/Maczek MBT program will go further.

Was it because you came here with an preconceived assumption Indians are morons?

You really have problem and issues with people that have different opinions than You. I'm serious here, go to specialist because this looks like some serious paranoia and hostility to other nations and countries, and people that have different POV.

Your are not always illogical but you need to learn to be polite in asking if you dont know, you dont become inferior or stupid if you ask if you dont know about something. Other wise it destroys the ambiance and mode of the forum from learning to trolling hate attacks.

Then You should learn and understand that critical PoV on some weapon system design is not against You, Your nation and country. Do You understand something such simple?

I was wrong only in case of Arjun main sight, and only because sight crosshair is same as in EMES-15.

 

[blueblood]

2) You are rascists or have rascist orientation because nobody never said bad things about India.


4) Pointing out weak sides of different designs is not biased, rascist etc. If I say that some point of Arjun design are weak or bad choices, this means only what it literally means, not that Indians are morons.

Damian and militarysta, keep up the good job and ignore the jingos. Poland is a very nice nation and in some particular fields is ahead of India. Its easy being a nationalist on internet forums instead of being a rationalist.

But I must tell you some things about India and Indians, we learn and we learn quickly. Just one simple example.

This is where we were 30 years back.

http://www.isro.org/Imagegallery/other_images/AppleTransport3.jpg

This is where we are today.

WelCome to Chandrayaan

Anyways, I for one really like your insights so please keep it up.

Thank You.

 

[Damian]

But I must tell you some things about India and Indians, we learn and we learn quickly. Just one simple example.

This is where we were 30 years back.

http://www.isro.org/Imagegallery/oth...Transport3.jpg

This is where we are today.

WelCome to Chandrayaan

So it is good for India, and there is nothing wrong with this, besides this India can be, and is more reliabale ally to west than many other countries in the region. So there is really no point to fight with each other.

And please, it is pure technical and technological discussion, can we cut the whole nationalities, politics etc. crap?

 

[blueblood]

So it is good for India, and there is nothing wrong with this, besides this India can be, and is more reliabale ally to west than many other countries in the region. So there is really no point to fight with each other.

And please, it is pure technical and technological discussion, can we cut the whole nationalities, politics etc. crap?

Definitely, and for a simpleton and layman like me can you please describe the Arjun program in few words judging it according to your knowledge?

 

[Godless-Kafir]

It is used even today! Did You ever hear about AMAP kits for Leopard 2 tanks? They used nano technology for this up-armor kit.

They use nano technology in the sense they are manufactured from nano particles and not nano technology as in little nano robots going in and filling the wound as it where. I must admit i am not sure about this but i dont see why we cant catch up. This is just a new method of forging metals and ceramics. It also seems to be used as an add on particularly on the Singapore variant.

LCH and ALH are not comparbale to AH-64D nor to EC Tiger, AH-1W and AH-1Z, AW129, nor to Mi-24 or Mi-28 and Ka-50/Ka-52.

In what was is the LCH not comparable? Point out the areas that it does not stand up.

Arjun is still in early 1980's standard for NATO tanks, T-90S is also in some points not in the current NATO standards.

Arjun is in the 80s? In what area is it lagging? We have already spoken of the armor and also its better than t-90.

But this is only about AFV design itself, not about India or Indian people. Stop confusing purely technological and technical discussion with discussion about nationality, nations and countries.

No one is.

Yes, Leopard 2A4's are German tanks and? They are good tanks and we are perfectly ok with that, we don't have urgent need to fetish to do everything by our own. When there will be more money Wilk/Maczek MBT program will go further.

Poland is a small country and compared to its western european counter parts does not have the ablity to make MBTs not because it is an fetish that others make it themselves but it just keeps them secure that way.

You really have problem and issues with people that have different opinions than You. I'm serious here, go to specialist because this looks like some serious paranoia and hostility to other nations and countries, and people that have different POV.

Well you need to go to a psychiatrist to check all the suppressed and hidden bias in your head. I am very serious to, i guess there is something wrong with you that made you think of doctors!! Why would u think of that if you yourself have never needed on!

Then You should learn and understand that critical PoV on some weapon system design is not against You, Your nation and country. Do You understand something such simple?

I was wrong only in case of Arjun main sight, and only because sight crosshair is same as in EMES-15.

So you just talk crap out of your hat based on a silly picture? I have pictures of girl at night does that prove that is a ghosts? I actually see nationality is just glorified tribalism, i was merely pointing out your repeated instance of it being an German 80s sight, which it was not.

 

[Damian]

From point of view of nation and military industry of India, Arjun program was a good decision.

The problem here is too... deep and urgent need to do everything indigenously. This is why Arjun use... well not modern main weapon, by current worldwide standards modern are smoothbore guns and really modern and powerfull ammunition for smoothbore guns are made only by US and Germany.

Second wrong decision was main sight placement and weak side turret protection over crew compartment that with current turret geometry is just unacceptabale.

Decision tu use hydrogas suspension was IMHO brilliant as I am big supporter of such suspension systems.

Ammo storage is not best from crew survivability point of view, on the other hand is probably one of the most ergonomic and user friendly because reloading turret magazine from hull magazine is fast and easy, while less safe and survivabale.

Powerpack... here I have mixed opinions, on the other hand Diesel is good choice, on the other hand the problem are exhaust pipes placed on hull sides, from British experiences we know that such placement increase thermal signature of vehicle, this is why UK designers made simple cooling mufflers for Challenger 2 tanks.

But the most optimal placement for exhaust pipes is hull rear.

Overall Arjun is not a bad tank, but still it represents mostly first half of 1980's in NATO standards, so as it would not meet NATO countries standards, it is rather good for India and need urgent improvements and redesigns, and IMHO most important is to equip it with different main weapon.

 

[plugwater]

GK, why do you keep talking about Poland ? Stick to the topic.

 

[Damian]

In what was is the LCH not comparable? Point out the areas that it does not stand up.

Mainly sighting systems, You have two options to choose, or European option to place sighting system above main rotor, or US solution to use radar instead of sighting system above main rotor.

Why? It is simple, attack helicopters are vurnabale to enemy fire, so they need to fire from behind cover (woods, hills etc.), so sights placed over main rotor or radar system over main rotor will improve survivability and fighting capabilities.

These solutions are based on real combat experiences and analize of possible combat with enemy equipped with descent AA capabilities.

Arjun is in the 80s? In what area is it lagging? We have already spoken of the armor and also its better than t-90.

FCS, and to be more precise H-K capabilities, are same as in Leopard 2 tanks before KWS program. Armor protection is also not in NATO standards, not in armor quality and protection values but from placement point of view.

In NATO due to turret geometry, it is important to place composite armor over whole side turret lenght, or at least crew compartment, this is not present on Arjun as we see in photos from factory.

Also Arjun main weapon is not in NATO standard.

Poland is a small country and compared to its western european counter parts does not have the ablity to make MBTs not because it is an fetish that others make it themselves but it just keeps them secure that way.

But we have ability to make all weapon systems by our own way, the problems are money (wasted not properly spend) and politicians.

So you just talk crap out of your hat based on a silly picture?

Photos are not silly, many of them are worth more than thousand words.

i was merely pointing out your repeated instance of it being an German 80s sight, which it was not.

And I agreed You were right in this case, You should admitt that I'am also right in many things, just to be fair at least.

 

[blueblood]

From point of view of nation and military industry of India, Arjun program was a good decision.

The problem here is too... deep and urgent need to do everything indigenously. This is why Arjun use... well not modern main weapon, by current worldwide standards modern are smoothbore guns and really modern and powerfull ammunition for smoothbore guns are made only by US and Germany.

Second wrong decision was main sight placement and weak side turret protection over crew compartment that with current turret geometry is just unacceptabale.

Decision tu use hydrogas suspension was IMHO brilliant as I am big supporter of such suspension systems.

Ammo storage is not best from crew survivability point of view, on the other hand is probably one of the most ergonomic and user friendly because reloading turret magazine from hull magazine is fast and easy, while less safe and survivabale.

Powerpack... here I have mixed opinions, on the other hand Diesel is good choice, on the other hand the problem are exhaust pipes placed on hull sides, from British experiences we know that such placement increase thermal signature of vehicle, this is why UK designers made simple cooling mufflers for Challenger 2 tanks.

But the most optimal placement for exhaust pipes is hull rear.

Overall Arjun is not a bad tank, but still it represents mostly first half of 1980's in NATO standards, so as it would not meet NATO countries standards, it is rather good for India and need urgent improvements and redesigns, and IMHO most important is to equip it with different main weapon.

Thanks a bunch. Do you think that some of these deficiencies will be taken care off in Mk2 judging by the media reports and what will be its standing post changes.

 

[Damian]

Thanks a bunch. Do you think that some of these deficiencies will be taken care off in Mk2 judging by the media reports and what will be its standing post changes.

Depends on how much money will be spend on R&D program and if designers, politicians and military have enough will to seriously ask what they need to upgrade, what they can upgrade (money issues) and if they can and want to redesign vehicle.

Seriously FMBT is not needed in the nearest future, instead Arjun Mk2 should be redesigned (or even designed as a new tank developed from Mk1) and with experiences gathered from such program, then they should start work on FMBT.

Also DRDO, Military and goverment officials should deeply analize other countries design solutions.

 

[Godless-Kafir]

From point of view of nation and military industry of India, Arjun program was a good decision.

We are honored you think that way.

The problem here is too... deep and urgent need to do everything indigenously. This is why Arjun use... well not modern main weapon, by current worldwide standards modern are smoothbore guns and really modern and powerfull ammunition for smoothbore guns are made only by US and Germany

.

Yes rifled bores are not used any more but the bore will be changed with smooth bore just on the challenger.

Second wrong decision was main sight placement and weak side turret protection over crew compartment that with current turret geometry is just unacceptabale.

Do you accept that is a bad placment on the Leo as well?

Decision tu use hydrogas suspension was IMHO brilliant as I am big supporter of such suspension systems.

It also increases hit probability on the move due to better ride quality.

Ammo storage is not best from crew survivability point of view, on the other hand is probably one of the most ergonomic and user friendly because reloading turret magazine from hull magazine is fast and easy, while less safe and survivable

.

Powerpack... here I have mixed opinions, on the other hand Diesel is good choice, on the other hand the problem are exhaust pipes placed on hull sides, from British experiences we know that such placement increase thermal signature of vehicle, this is why UK designers made simple cooling mufflers for Challenger 2 tanks.

But the most optimal placement for exhaust pipes is hull rear.

May be they have a muffler

.

Overall Arjun is not a bad tank, but still it represents mostly first half of 1980's in NATO standards, so as it would not meet NATO countries standards, it is rather good for India and need urgent improvements and redesigns, and IMHO most important is to equip it with different main weapon.

The tank incorporates GPS-based navigation systems and sophisticated frequency hopping radios. The state-of-the-art Battlefield Management System, co-developed by DRDO and Ebit Israel, allows it to network with other fighting units.[36] The Arjun has the capability to network with other tanks, thanks to its Battle Management System. The computerized fire control system aboard Arjun has been jointly developed by DRDO with the Elbit,Israel.

Which of the above was avaliable in the 80s? The GPS..

 

[blueblood]

Well, willpower of politicians is as good as tits on a bull. Some major improvements over MK1 are (again, media reports) ;

1) Less weight, i.e. 55 tonnes. Possibly with some structural changes.

2) APS

3) Missile firing capability, Lahat.

4) NERA.

5) 1500 hp engine.

So, what's your take?

 

[Damian]

Yes rifled bores are not used any more but the bore will be changed with smooth bore just on the challenger.

Challenger 2 tanks will not have smoothbore gun, this is because of wrong decisions made when tank was designed and use of such specific ammunition and ammunition storage, it is impossible to use smoothbore with one part ammunition without complete hull and turret redesign.

Do you accept that is a bad placment on the Leo as well?

Of course, it is terrible weak spot in front armor, and even after KWS upgrades Leopard 2 still have this weak point, of course situation upgraded but not the ideal condition.

Also Leclerc share the same problem.

It also increases hit probability on the move due to better ride quality.

It is a bit exaggarated, good quality torsion bars also provide smooth ride in rough terrain, hydrogas suspension have other, more important advantages.

May be they have a muffler

The it is a good thing, however as I said, the most optimal place for exhaust pipes are hull rear.

The tank incorporates GPS-based navigation systems and sophisticated frequency hopping radios. The state-of-the-art Battlefield Management System, co-developed by DRDO and Ebit Israel, allows it to network with other fighting units.[36] The Arjun has the capability to network with other tanks, thanks to its Battle Management System. The computerized fire control system aboard Arjun has been jointly developed by DRDO with the Elbit,Israel.

Which of the above was avaliable in the 80s? The GPS..

These are only electronics and equippment that can be put in any vehicle, even the oldies from WWII. There are other important design solutions that are not so easy to integrate in to design.

For example replacement of CIV by CITV, but CITV have big assembly elements, so this means most probably need to change it's placement and to make another assembly hole in turret roof.

Or placing composite armor over crew compartment on turret side surfaces, this means that storage boxes will need to be placed elsewhere, it can even means complete storage system redesign.

 

[Damian]

1) Less weight, i.e. 55 tonnes. Possibly with some structural changes.

2) APS

3) Missile firing capability, Lahat.

4) NERA.

5) 1500 hp engine.

So, what's your take?

I wonder how they want to reduce weight, reduction to 55 tons is a big challenge, it can mean use of more compact engine, shorter hull, even decreasing crew to 3 men and use of autoloader so internal space can be reduced.

APS integration is rather easy, problem is that such things are expensive... very expensive.

For example, it is not widely known, but US.Army and USMC had Active Protection Systems (mostly soft kill types) for their AFV's at least from late 80's, what happend? There are probably only ~1000-2000 systems manifactured (3 types, AN/VLQ-6, AN/VLQ-7 and AN/VLQ-8) and all of them in storage, only Marines use rarely some AN/VLQ-6 and AN/VLQ-8 systems in 2003 and AN/VLQ-7 was rarely seen in 1991 on some M3 CFV's.

LAHAT is a good choice, especially that it will give range edge over Pakistani T-80UD's and Chinese ZTZ-99's.

NERA is important part of modern composite armor.

1500HP's are currently minimum for any vehicle heavier than 50 tons.

So all are important, the question is, what is more important to IA.

 

[Godless-Kafir]

Mainly sighting systems, You have two options to choose, or European option to place sighting system above main rotor, or US solution to use radar instead of sighting system above main rotor.

Why? It is simple, attack helicopters are vurnabale to enemy fire, so they need to fire from behind cover (woods, hills etc.), so sights placed over main rotor or radar system over main rotor will improve survivability and fighting capabilities.

These solutions are based on real combat experiences and analize of possible combat with enemy equipped with descent AA capabilities.

What sort of an explanation is that? You must be kidding me right! Those are variants not all Tigers have that on the top. So the LCH wont have any of this so it is 1980s? How do you know LCH wont have all this.

FCS, and to be more precise H-K capabilities, are same as in Leopard 2 tanks before KWS program. Armor protection is also not in NATO standards, not in armor quality and protection values but from placement point of view.

No they are not, go read my other post.

In NATO due to turret geometry, it is important to place composite armor over whole side turret lenght, or at least crew compartment, this is not present on Arjun as we see in photos from factory.

Thats lame, you just said you have no idea where the crew compartment ends.

Arjun main weapon is not in NATO standard.

\

Yes thats true.

But we have ability to make all weapon systems by our own way, the problems are money (wasted not properly spend) and politicians

.

Its not just that, Poland is small country both economically and geographically.

Photos are not silly, many of them are worth more than thousand words.

Sure but you seem to have x-ray vision to see what is inside just by looking at a pic, as you did earlier.

And I agreed You were right in this case, You should admitt that I'am also right in many things, just to be fair at least.

Offcourse you where right on somethings, i just cant recollect what. May be you started off in the wrong foot by being unfair, you seem to have improved your attitude, so i will let it pass if you continue with good behavior.

 

[militarysta]

Godless-Kafir

Poland is a small country and compared to its western european counter parts does not have the ablity to make MBTs not because it is an fetish that others make it themselves but it just keeps them secure that way.
(...)
They are not polish tanks they are used german tanks.
(...)
ust saying Poland has no MBTs comparable to Arjun. Unless you show me you have an MBT program.

First:
You do not know practically nothing about the technological possibilities of Polish companies.

Second:

Of course Polish industry made tanks:
Altair - Kontrakt malezyjski blisko finału
Altair - PT-91Ex: Sukces Łabęd

48x PT-91MZ for Malaysia. This tank during trials in Malaysja defeated T-90S and Kern-120 (T-84).
During comparative trials it turned out that polish PT-91MZ is better then T-90S (erly) in all basic parameters (without basick armour) and just win.

Third:

As I know that Poland exports to India modern weapons system (especially radar stations) and does not import from India of any advanced military technologies. Am I right?

fourth:

Polish Leopard2A4 is simply no worse then Ajrun Mk.1. Sorry to say that,Czy chodziło Ci o: zwłaszcza wszystkie przetestowane w polsce warianty modernizacji
but it's true...especially, all tested variants of modernization in Poland Leopard2.




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The rest I will write tomorrow.

 

[Godless-Kafir]

These are only electronics and equippment that can be put in any vehicle, even the oldies from WWII. There are other important design solutions that are not so easy to integrate in to design.

For example replacement of CIV by CITV, but CITV have big assembly elements, so this means most probably need to change it's placement and to make another assembly hole in turret roof.

Or placing composite armor over crew compartment on turret side surfaces, this means that storage boxes will need to be placed elsewhere, it can even means complete storage system redesign.

No i meant show me which of this was there in the 80s or else go away and dont waste time.

CIVT was added in 2000 not in the 80s.

 

[Godless-Kafir]

Godless-Kafir



First:
You do not know practically nothing about the technological possibilities of Polish companies.

Second:

Of course Polish industry made tanks:
Altair - Kontrakt malezyjski blisko finału
Altair - PT-91Ex: Sukces Łabęd

48x PT-91MZ for Malaysia. This tank during trials in Malaysja defeated T-90S and Kern-120 (T-84).
During comparative trials it turned out that polish PT-91MZ is better then T-90S (erly) in all basic parameters (without basick armour) and just win.

Third:

As I know that Poland exports to India modern weapons system (especially radar stations) and does not import from India of any advanced military technologies. Am I right?

fourth:

Polish Leopard2A4 is simply no worse then Ajrun Mk.1. Sorry to say that,Czy chodziło Ci o: zwłaszcza wszystkie przetestowane w polsce warianty modernizacji
but it's true...especially, all tested variants of modernization in Poland Leopard2.




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Anuluj

TÅ‚umaczenie (polski > angielski)






The rest I will write tomorrow.

Good.. but those are T-Series done while Poland was under USSR and the second one is just an upgrade of T-Series.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Arjun is still in early 1980's standard for NATO tanks,

This is why Arjun use... well not modern main weapon, by current worldwide standards modern are smoothbore guns and really modern and powerfull ammunition for smoothbore guns are made only by US and Germany.

Ammo storage is not best from crew survivability point of view, on the other hand is probably one of the most ergonomic and user friendly because reloading turret magazine from hull magazine is fast and easy, while less safe and survivabale.

Powerpack... here I have mixed opinions, on the other hand Diesel is good choice, on the other hand the problem are exhaust pipes placed on hull sides, from British experiences we know that such placement increase thermal signature of vehicle, this is why UK designers made simple cooling mufflers for Challenger 2 tanks.

I wonder how they want to reduce weight, reduction to 55 tons is a big challenge, it can mean use of more compact engine, shorter hull, even decreasing crew to 3 men and use of auto-loader so internal space can be reduced.

Arjun is not early 80s tech as i am repeating, Degin flaws are there, but no where the tank is in 80s .. :/
As long as the shell hits the target its a proved machine, But i agree that Ammo needed to be changed so does the gun..

Their are safe pressurized ammo containers to keep ammo safe so does their are blow up pannels on turret, Abt challenger burn up case, One have to notice for how long tank was fuming up, It exploded after some long time not at instant..

Engine is deigned for multifuels like kerosene, diesel and others all tank engines are deigned for that purpose..

Also putting exhaust at back ? , Didn't a KVPT or NSV breached the back of Abrams and case fire ?

Present BLV can take Arjun`s weight even more, the MK-2 is nearly 62tons or more, But the Vehicle is smaller with redegined turret and chassis yet have wider tracks..

 

[blueblood]

I wonder how they want to reduce weight, reduction to 55 tons is a big challenge, it can mean use of more compact engine, shorter hull, even decreasing crew to 3 men and use of autoloader so internal space can be reduced.

APS integration is rather easy, problem is that such things are expensive... very expensive.

For example, it is not widely known, but US.Army and USMC had Active Protection Systems (mostly soft kill types) for their AFV's at least from late 80's, what happend? There are probably only ~1000-2000 systems manifactured (3 types, AN/VLQ-6, AN/VLQ-7 and AN/VLQ-8) and all of them in storage, only Marines use rarely some AN/VLQ-6 and AN/VLQ-8 systems in 2003 and AN/VLQ-7 was rarely seen in 1991 on some M3 CFV's.

LAHAT is a good choice, especially that it will give range edge over Pakistani T-80UD's and Chinese ZTZ-99's.

NERA is important part of modern composite armor.

1500HP's are currently minimum for any vehicle heavier than 50 tons.

So all are important, the question is, what is more important to IA.

Structural changes - Maybe they modified its turret to the size of Leo 2A4 or have used lighter composites.

APS - Most likely Iron Fist, a hardkill APS from Israel.

Arjun is already turning out to be one of the most expensive MBTs according to the defence minister. Economy of scale could be able to reduce the production costs.

LAHAT outranges anything in the Paki or Chinese and even Russian inventory, so I think that is a positive sign.

NERA - If they can somehow imitate the German achievements that could be a real game changer in the sub continent.

Arjun already has a decent P/W ratio, less weight and additional 100 hp is more likely to increase it.

IA wants the best for its men but DRDO hasn't been able to fulfill its demands.