Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

If Tanks have to evolve, which path they should follow?

  • Light Vehicles-Best for mobility

    Votes: 25 7.3%
  • Heavy Armour-Can take heavy punishment.

    Votes: 57 16.7%
  • Modular Design-Allowing dynamic adaptions.

    Votes: 198 58.1%
  • Universal Platform-Best for logistics.

    Votes: 61 17.9%

  • Total voters
    341

Waffen SS

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@Damian how many times would I tell you coalition air power was not only used to attack tanks, cant you see it?

Flying cars is a fantasy of insane people.
probably for you type people flying was insane before it was discovered, but it was proved wrong. Any thing is possible.

Nope, it is not that effectie, in fact aircraft weapons hae poor accuracy, thus they are making too much unnececary damage and ciilian casualties, while guided munitions are damn expensie and not much of them are manufactured, las time France froces in Libya used their whole storage of guided ammunition, which further points out how uneconomical this is.
I dont know how to respond here I pointed out various weapons that can air craft carry, and you made this which has absolutely no connection with what you yourself quoted.

How ever Indian Hawker Hunters used unguided ammunition and completely blunted Pakistani assault.

And they efficency was definetely same as uring WWII which was... nearly zero.
:shocked: you seem to not know.

Battle of Longewala - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Nearly Zero? Huh?

Efficency of air forces against ground forces is low. How long Libyan Army was capable to fight using also their own AFV's against rebels despite the fact that Libyan Army was bombarded for a long time by coalition.
My question is could rebels win if Coalition did not help them by sending air force? You know before coalition sent planes Libyan air force was pounding rebels?

And hey, funny thing but Navy's of different nations still orders vessels with ship vs ship capabilities.

So you want to say that you are smarter than officers and sailors serving in the Navy?

You are indeed arogant piece of shit you know.
And how many warship to warship duel happened after WW2? Even in WW2 Japanese navy aviation pounded Pearl Harbour, only battle ship to battle ship battle was in Guadelcanal.

When Ships still have guns to fire at each other you know Navy prefers to use aircraft than cannon? Check out British Navy's Harrier's role in Falkland war, Indian Navy's Hawker Sea Hawk role in 1971 war, know about US Navy's aviation role in Vietnam, Gulf Of Sidra and Gulf war? See how F 14, A 6 and A 7's attacked enemy bases.

And also during 1971's Indian Navy attack on Karachi Indian navy used Missile boats instead of warships.

plane carried anti-ship missile is extremely deadly to ships.

This is probably why Iraqis were fighting rather well for their capabilities in 1991 and 2003 inflicting casualties.
Rather well? Iraqi weapon research facilities, power plants, command center, airbase ammunition depot were bombed, Iraqi Military collapsed, with out any stiff resistance Coalition force advanced swiftly, you still say Iraq fought well?

During 1991 Iraq had over 500,000 men in arms, small but dangerous navy consisting Osa missile boats, Iraqi airforce was biggest airforce and it was technologically far advanced than India's own airforce with ability to launch exocet missile against coalition ships, over 3000 pieces of artillery and tanks, extensive SAM system, still coalition suffered far less than they expected. Many people thought US was going to another Vietnam war and it was proved wrong.

Rest is a big LOL. Check out problems regarding Arjun Tank's heavy weight.

Accept the fact that Tank's importance decreased dramatically by now even if not obsolete completely. No matter how powerful your armour is? It will be penetrated.
 
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cloud

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I think @Kunal has already showed somewhere in the tank thread with a Pic, Tanks will always be needed as long as you have to move your ground forces forward. Moving soldiers(not just inside the tank, but the once following it from behind will need protection of the Heaviest armor they can get and the fire power of tank gun).

Aircraft can stay in the war theater for only so long. All in all both go hand in hand. Having Air superiority can foil infiltration attack if on time apart from the condition that enemy lacks the suitable defense against modern jets. But to make a hole into enemy territory(without too much damage) both will be needed air superiority and the TANKS.

Logically having the air superiority is more important then having more tanks then enemy. But hey Russia proved it wrong. :) and can be proven wrong again if SAM systems development gets ahead of jets.
 
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Damian

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@Damian how many times would I tell you coalition air power was not only used to attack tanks, cant you see it?
I am immune to idiotic pseudo argument.

And guess what, coalition command was perfectly aware that attacking ground forces is waste of time and resources, as air forces against such targets do not have any significant efficency, BUT... air forces are perfect when it comes to making chaos behind enemy lines, by destroying stationary command centers, bridges, storage facilities, hospitals, media, goverment installations etc.

Air force are also perfect when it comes to terrorizing civilians, by bombing their houses.

This is in which air forces are perfect.

probably for you type people flying was insane before it was discovered, but it was proved wrong. Any thing is possible.
No, I am a man that above all respect science, and real science says clearly, not everything is possible.

And flying cars is problematic idea, from security point of view, from technical point of view, from law point of view. But for teenagers that preffer to live with science fiction BS in their minds, instead of educating themselfs it is incomprehendable isn't it?

I dont know how to respond here I pointed out various weapons that can air craft carry, and you made this which has absolutely no connection with what you yourself quoted.
And the same comes to tanks, they can also carry various types of ammunition you moron, from kinetic energy projectiles, to cannister rounds, flechette rounds, HE rounds, HESH, multipurpose programmable HE rounds, even guided munitions with LOS and BLOS capabilities.

For poorly educated in military subject moron like you, this is probably a surprise eh?

How ever Indian Hawker Hunters used unguided ammunition and completely blunted Pakistani assault.
Well, if you fight against incompetent army, it might be even possible. :D

you seem to not know.

Battle of Longewala - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Nearly Zero? Huh?
Yeah, because in reality, air crafts most likely destroyed the minority of tanks, while majority were casualties of infantry shaped charge weapons.

My question is could rebels win if Coalition did not help them by sending air force? You know before coalition sent planes Libyan air force was pounding rebels?
In the first place coalition should not support these so called "rebels", but help Gaddaffi forces bomb them.

And no, any insurgent force is incapable to defeat regular army without outside support.

And how many warship to warship duel happened after WW2? Even in WW2 Japanese navy aviation pounded Pearl Harbour, only battle ship to battle ship battle was in Guadelcanal.

When Ships still have guns to fire at each other you know Navy prefers to use aircraft than cannon? Check out British Navy's Harrier's role in Falkland war, Indian Navy's Hawker Sea Hawk role in 1971 war, know about US Navy's aviation role in Vietnam, Gulf Of Sidra and Gulf war? See how F 14, A 6 and A 7's attacked enemy bases.

And also during 1971's Indian Navy attack on Karachi Indian navy used Missile boats instead of warships.

plane carried anti-ship missile is extremely deadly to ships.
When the last time you seen two comparable Navies to fight with each other?

Fight against US Navy and Soviet Navy would be very different, and there would a lot of fight between warships with use of ASM's.

Rather well? Iraqi weapon research facilities, power plants, command center, airbase ammunition depot were bombed, Iraqi Military collapsed, with out any stiff resistance Coalition force advanced swiftly, you still say Iraq fought well?

During 1991 Iraq had over 500,000 men in arms, small but dangerous navy consisting Osa missile boats, Iraqi airforce was biggest airforce and it was technologically far advanced than India's own airforce with ability to launch exocet missile against coalition ships, over 3000 pieces of artillery and tanks, extensive SAM system, still coalition suffered far less than they expected. Many people thought US was going to another Vietnam war and it was proved wrong.
And Iraqis still fought well.

Rest is a big LOL. Check out problems regarding Arjun Tank's heavy weight.
But Arjun is not even the heaviest tank in service these days. :D

I say more, it is not a tanks fault that you have poor infrastructure.

Accept the fact that Tank's importance decreased dramatically by now even if not obsolete completely. No matter how powerful your armour is? It will be penetrated.
I will never accept bollocks written by stupid kids and armchair generals, or other geniuses of this kind.

Accept that real military don't care about your opinion. For modern armies tank is one of the basic tools for manouver armor mechanized warfare, and no, really modern army even considers possibility to withdraw tank from service.

Guess what, for example US Army pre 2001-2003 period was believing that they do not need a tank, it was a fantasy of same people like you.

After wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, not only they changed their minds and want to keep tanks, but they also want to design next generation main battle tanks after 2025.

So real soldiers and generals, have a different opinion than you, small, stupid, teenager who's only knowledge comes from stupid video games and Wikipedia.
 

Waffen SS

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And guess what, coalition command was perfectly aware that attacking ground forces is waste of time and resources, as air forces against such targets do not have any significant efficency, BUT... air forces are perfect when it comes to making chaos behind enemy lines, by destroying stationary command centers, bridges, storage facilities, hospitals, media, goverment installations etc.

Air force are also perfect when it comes to terrorizing civilians, by bombing their houses.

This is in which air forces are perfect.
Then why do you keep keeping arguement about how many tanks were destroyed by airstrike? Do you pretend not to understand?

No, I am a man that above all respect science, and real science says clearly, not everything is possible.

And flying cars is problematic idea, from security point of view, from technical point of view, from law point of view. But for teenagers that preffer to live with science fiction BS in their minds, instead of educating themselfs it is incomprehendable isn't it?
Well when Railway was being established then many people like you said what if an engine slips down from railtrack? What if 2 rail engenies collide each other in same track? What if a man or animal gets smashed in front of a rail engine? This problems are still alive but for that we cant neglect train.

Which is today's science fiction it will be reality next day

Do you read Jule Verne?

And the same comes to tanks, they can also carry various types of ammunition you moron, from kinetic energy projectiles, to cannister rounds, flechette rounds, HE rounds, HESH, multipurpose programmable HE rounds, even guided munitions with LOS and BLOS capabilities.

For poorly educated in military subject moron like you, this is probably a surprise eh?
Tell me how many shells fired from tanks are guided? No matter which type shell they do fire shell can do less damage than a bomb.

Well, if you fight against incompetent army, it might be even possible. :D
Pak army is incompetent? It was Pakistani air force's fault not army's. Wheather army is incompetent or not it will happen unless you dont have air supriority.

Yeah, because in reality, air crafts most likely destroyed the minority of tanks, while majority were casualties of infantry shaped charge weapons.
Lol, Indian RCL gunners scored 3 hits, another tank was destroyed by mines, most others were destroyed by 30 mm and T10 rockets. Infantry men destroyed total 12 tanks rest by Hawker Hunters.

Battle of Longewala: India-Pakistan War 1971

In the first place coalition should not support these so called "rebels", but help Gaddaffi forces bomb them.

And no, any insurgent force is incapable to defeat regular army without outside support.
Help Gaddafi to bomb rebels? Man you know what are you talking about? Gaddafi was tyrant, he killed many people, did you see the movie "The Dictator" by Sacha baron Kohen?

When the last time you seen two comparable Navies to fight with each other?

Fight against US Navy and Soviet Navy would be very different, and there would a lot of fight between warships with use of ASM's.
Last time I saw it was WW2 even then ships were escorted by carriers. In Atlantic Germans were using U-Boats Allies were using destroyers to sink them, in Pacific there were Zero, Val, Kate, Suisei and F4U Corsair, F4F Wildcat, F6F Hellcat, TBF Avenger and of course SBD Dauntless. Not much use of 18" guns either, apart from supporting infantry during beach assault.

And Iraqis still fought well.
Statistics and facts dont work for you. I talked to a former US airforce member he said Iraqi military was a joke.

Are you dogmatic? http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a527997.pdf

But Arjun is not even the heaviest tank in service these days. :D

I say more, it is not a tanks fault that you have poor infrastructure.
You mean Tanks to roll all time over concrete road that you talk about poor infrastructure? Can heavy tanks roll in Himalaya or in Arunachal or in Gujarat?

I think what we more need that is an APC which can swim like BTR 60 and carry soldiers inside it like M113 for example, it can provide protection against small arms fire which is deadly against infantry and blast fragmentations, Trucks cant work safely in war, in addition that APC will have a fire power like Bradley with anti-tank TOWs. Their main job will be to transport soldiers safely to battlefield and in case get attacked they can return fire. You cant use helicopters all the time.

To take out enemy's field fortification by infantry such as pill box, bunker cheap RPG is best.

But no heavy weight tank.
 
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militarysta

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@Waffen SS

1. Why you had been chosen so ugly formation name as nick? waffenSS is teh same ugly as NKVD, and why you choose hitler as avatar?
Those two things puzzled me. How many do you know about second war and cenral europe history? What you know about waffenSS, do you know any about this formation?

2. You are mixing apples and oranges - air is air, land is land. Air have difrent role in whole "system" and tanks have another role. Tanks will never by replaced by air support, and air support will never by replaced by armed forces.

3. It's hard to say but you have absolutly no knowledges about tanks, armour, AT weapons, and "behind armour effect". It's makye discusion whit you extremly difficult.

4. CAS is overestimated - I give fact few pages ago, I will post the same again please read this slowly and cearfully
On famous "Highway of Death" from over 1400 destroyed vechicles they are only 14 destroyed Tanks and 14 other armoured vechicles.

Airs Strikes against armoured force generally had faild before 2003. There was not good enought technology. For example:

During Kosovo War NATO air strikes where able to destroy only few serbian tanks.

Firtsly NATO propaganda claims (gen Henry Shelton) that Serbian forces in Kosovo lost in air strikes 120 tanks, 220 IFV, 450 artilery guns and motars.
But then went to Kosovo NATO MEAT (Munitions Effectiveness Assessment Team) comission.
MEAT team had worked in whole Kosovo and studied all wracks and air strikes places and consist that Serbian Army in Kosovo lost in air strikes:
14 tanks,
18 IFV,
20 artilery guns.
ALL: 58 destroyed targets.

In 1991 in Iraq was the same story - Air Strikes had low efectivness:

between 17.01-23.02 1991 when air strikes where started (withut land battle) we had diffrent sources for Iraq losses:

USCENTCOM from februar 1991:
1772 tanks destroyed
948 IFV and armoured vechicles

USCENTCOM from march 1991:
1388 tanks destroyed
929 IFV and armoured vechicles

DIA raport:
579 tanks destroyed
400 IFV and armoured vechicles

CIA raport:
449 tanks destroyed
277 IFV and armoured vechicles

As you can see the ussaly most accurate inteligence raport give 3-4 times smaller values then previous sources.
But it's not enought. After land battle there where sent few research groups to assume how many tergets had been destroyed by air, land and other forces.
One of those gropus had acess to 163 destroyed Iraq tanks from Tawalkana Tank.Div, 12 Tank Div, and 3 Tank Div.
All of those division had fight in Kuwait and Iraq. From 163 tanks there where:
-78 tanks without any damage (abandoned)
-28 tanks where destoryed by Air Strikes
- 57 tanks where destroyed by Land Forces.

Based on this tested they assume that in Air Strikes can destoryed circa 160 tanks durign ODS.

Next funny thing was about "Hellfire myth" - firstly USCENTCOM claimed that Ah-64A fired about 5000 Hellfire and destroyed over 600 Iraq tanks. After the war they changed they opinion to: " destoryed 550-600 vechicles - and 10-20% armoured vechicles from that number"
So writing this clearly: not "600 tanks" but 600 vechicles and only 55-120 IFV, SPHs. APC and tanks. Tanks number is not given and "hide" between IFV, SPHs, and APCS in those "55-120) destoryed by Hellfire "hard targets".
Nice - isn't it?
 
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Damian

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Then why do you keep keeping arguement about how many tanks were destroyed by airstrike? Do you pretend not to understand?
I keep arguing to show that air forces are not efficent in fighting with ground forces and that it is a myth spread by morons like you.

Well when Railway was being established then many people like you said what if an engine slips down from railtrack? What if 2 rail engenies collide each other in same track? What if a man or animal gets smashed in front of a rail engine? This problems are still alive but for that we cant neglect train.

Which is today's science fiction it will be reality next day

Do you read Jule Verne?
Real science do not believe that everything which is today Sci-Fi will be reality somewhere in future.

Tell me how many shells fired from tanks are guided? No matter which type shell they do fire shell can do less damage than a bomb.
There were different types of guided ammunition developed for tanks. For example GLATGM's with different range and attack profile. Even warheads can be different for such guided ammunition, really this is nothing new, but of course a fanboy of aircrafts do not even know whole history of development and service of tanks and other AFV's.

And tank ammunition do not need to create as much damage as bombs, why should they? Tank gun is a weapon of high accuracy and precision, and this is why there is more and more talk among military that tanks should be used more often also in COIN operations, because they create less colatteral damage and there is smaller probability that civilians will be killed.

Just look how many civilian casualties were done by your precious bombs dropped from your precious aircrafts of different kind?

Pak army is incompetent? It was Pakistani air force's fault not army's. Wheather army is incompetent or not it will happen unless you dont have air supriority.
To the contrary, they did not needed any support from air forces, these obsolete aircrafts used by IAF, would have problems to even properly use their weapons against Pakistani formations, if they would have some SPAAG's there providing cover for other ground assets. Also Pakistanis should use a greater effective range of tank guns and fie HE rounds on to Indian infantry positions to supress them while their own infantry would close in.

Lol, Indian RCL gunners scored 3 hits, another tank was destroyed by mines, most others were destroyed by 30 mm and T10 rockets. Infantry men destroyed total 12 tanks rest by Hawker Hunters.

Battle of Longewala: India-Pakistan War 1971
It is simply immposible for 30mm automatic gun and unguided rockets to destroy even Chinese made ZTZ-59 with such efficency.

Help Gaddafi to bomb rebels? Man you know what are you talking about? Gaddafi was tyrant, he killed many people, did you see the movie "The Dictator" by Sacha baron Kohen?
Gaddafi was better than these religious morons currently governing Libya. And yes, I know what I am talking about, as I am adult, you are just a stupid kid with stupid nick, who beliefs he lives in Third Reich and have idiotic avatar.

Last time I saw it was WW2 even then ships were escorted by carriers. In Atlantic Germans were using U-Boats Allies were using destroyers to sink them, in Pacific there were Zero, Val, Kate, Suisei and F4U Corsair, F4F Wildcat, F6F Hellcat, TBF Avenger and of course SBD Dauntless. Not much use of 18" guns either, apart from supporting infantry during beach assault.
Because currently the main anti ship weapon of modern battle ships is ASM, while guns provide fire cover over shorter ranges... it might however change with introduction of AGS system on DDG-1000 and later railguns, in fact introducing railguns might mean the end of ASM era, as projectile fired from railgun can have greater range, will be faster and cheaper (it will be just a chunk of metal).

Statistics and facts dont work for you. I talked to a former US airforce member he said Iraqi military was a joke.
I do not talk with "fly boys", as they did not done anything spectacular and are arrogant. The real job is done by real soldiers on the ground, and they deserve respect, what's more, grunts respect their enemy.

You mean Tanks to roll all time over concrete road that you talk about poor infrastructure?
What concrete road? Paved roads are enough, not to mention that tanks don't need roads at all.

Can heavy tanks roll in Himalaya or in Arunachal or in Gujarat?
Heavy tanks are not designed and manufactured by at least 50 years, same with medium tanks. Today we have only Main Battle Tanks.

And yes, MBT's can operate in such environment because MBT's are designed to be capable to operate in different conditions, climate etc.

I think what we more need that is an APC which can swim like BTR 60 and carry soldiers inside it like M113 for example, it can provide protection against small arms fire which is deadly against infantry and blast fragmentations,
Nobody designs today such coffins for crews and dismounts. Today APC's and IFV's have greater protection and weight, and most of these new designs do not swim because there is no point to swim, protection is more important.

To take out enemy's field fortification by infantry such as pill box, bunker cheap RPG is best.
Not allways, tank gun fired multipurpose programmable HE round is more effective, as it is capable to penetrate bunker and explode inside. RPG's can't do this, their ammunition is too fragile.

But no heavy weight tank.
Yeah, just like I said, by the last 50 years nobody designs and manufacture heavy and medium tanks, both classes were replaced by main battle tanks which have superior mobility, fire power and protection to heavy and medium tanks.
 

Andrei_bt

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@Andrei_bt You need to clear your PM box, I can't answer to your question.[/QUOTE]


thx. Done
 
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Waffen SS

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@militarysta

1) I have enough knowledge about WW2, I know how Poland suffered under Nazi rule, people were summarily executed and many horrible things. Waffen SS was elite WW2 German military unit much like Iraqi Republican Guard plus I like their uniform, I dont deny Holocaust. If any one denies holocaust send them to me I will show their facts are wrong. For my avatar see it is funny. It is funny gif image.

2) Yes apples and oranges, who says armed force will be replaced by air power? Real war is fought by infantry, I am talking about infantry carried anti-tank weapons and their effects on tanks. Infantry carried RPG teams can do much better than slow moving tanks to blow up pill boxes. In which scale infantry is deadly to tanks they are not deadly much against air power.

3) If you think so then yes.

4) I already told you air power was not only used to attack tanks, 1/3 of coalition aircraft was dedicated to attack Iraqi Scud launchers. Please count it.

2ndly in Kosovo war, A 10 was not much used, Coalition enjoyed absolute air superiority in Gulf war, A 10 which is good in tank busting roll was not much used in Kosovo war, instead F 15, F 16, CF 18, F/A 18 B 2 F 117 were used. This planes are not good for CAS. This air attack was intended to destroy Yugoslav air defence system and high value military targets.

CAS is not possible unless you have air superiority. CAS planes are extremely vulnerable against SAMs. So to do that at first you need to use Fighter Bombers to erase SAM sites and destroy enemy air force. This fact must be noted.

Iraq's Military strength was hugely overrated in Gulf war, such as Pentagon said there are 545,000 soldiers in KTO later it was decreased to less than 300,000.

For T 72 it was used by Bathist Republican Guard and Saddam with drew it mostly in midst of air attack, Iraqi army was left behind. Indicating most Republican Guard escaped from Gulf war so most t 72's example is 1991 Iraqi uprising when Republican Guard played key role to put down revolts.

Lastly I must appreciate that you are good in behaviour unlike Damian. :thumb: Your choice.
 
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Waffen SS

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I keep arguing to show that air forces are not efficent in fighting with ground forces and that it is a myth spread by morons like you.
Nein, you keep saying air power is useless and waste of ammo. Of course air power cant replace ground war, but I meant not ground force as whole only tanks.

Real science do not believe that everything which is today Sci-Fi will be reality somewhere in future.
Slovakian Flying Car Makes Short Test Flight - Speakeasy - WSJ

First flying car may go on sale in 2015 | SciTech | GMA News Online

Of course every thing is not possible such time machine. It is another topic though.

There were different types of guided ammunition developed for tanks. For example GLATGM's with different range and attack profile. Even warheads can be different for such guided ammunition, really this is nothing new, but of course a fanboy of aircrafts do not even know whole history of development and service of tanks and other AFV's.

And tank ammunition do not need to create as much damage as bombs, why should they? Tank gun is a weapon of high accuracy and precision, and this is why there is more and more talk among military that tanks should be used more often also in COIN operations, because they create less colatteral damage and there is smaller probability that civilians will be killed.

Just look how many civilian casualties were done by your precious bombs dropped from your precious aircrafts of different kind?
When Fighter Bombers and Strategic bombers may cause collateral damage CAS aircraft generally dont do.

For Tanks collateral damage see how Iraqi Republican Guard crushed revolts in 1991 Iraqi revolts, Tanks and artillery kept shelling over civilian area, rebels with few anti-tank weapons could do little.
Collateral damage depends on Government Strategy.

To the contrary, they did not needed any support from air forces, these obsolete aircrafts used by IAF, would have problems to even properly use their weapons against Pakistani formations, if they would have some SPAAG's there providing cover for other ground assets. Also Pakistanis should use a greater effective range of tank guns and fie HE rounds on to Indian infantry positions to supress them while their own infantry would close in.
Indian Air Force :: Hunters at Dawn : The Air Battle of Longewala

It may cover up some, I read in an article where a Pakistani General briefly discussed why Pakistan failed in Longewala, I could not find that how ever as I remember that General then Pakistani air force showed total incompetence. PAF crews mistook one PN Frigate as Indian navy Missile boat and PAF planes attacked it, PAF was fighting their own war they did not cooperate with Army. He said then PAF had B 57 canberra bombers which should have been used against IAF Hunter base in Jaishalmir. PAF was doing their own job.

It is simply immposible for 30mm automatic gun and unguided rockets to destroy even Chinese made ZTZ-59 with such efficency.
Battle of Longewala by Wing Commander Kukke Suresh

http://archive.tehelka.com/story_main38.asp?filename=Ne220308truthneeds.asp

http://archive.tehelka.com/story_main38.asp?filename=Ne150308the_truth.asp

First hand report, read it carefully.

Gaddafi was better than these religious morons currently governing Libya. And yes, I know what I am talking about, as I am adult, you are just a stupid kid with stupid nick, who beliefs he lives in Third Reich and have idiotic avatar.
Perhaps the fault is in their religion, after all we are all infidels.:pound:

No I am not Nazi fan my avatar is funny gif image. Third Reich is only for trolling purpose such some say their location "unconfirmed" some say Glob Trotting like this.

Because currently the main anti ship weapon of modern battle ships is ASM, while guns provide fire cover over shorter ranges... it might however change with introduction of AGS system on DDG-1000 and later railguns, in fact introducing railguns might mean the end of ASM era, as projectile fired from railgun can have greater range, will be faster and cheaper (it will be just a chunk of metal).
You know battle ships are no longer in use generally? I dont think railguns will replace ASMs and what about Naval aviation?

I do not talk with "fly boys", as they did not done anything spectacular and are arrogant. The real job is done by real soldiers on the ground, and they deserve respect, what's more, grunts respect their enemy.
Yes real soldiers are infantry men not Tankers. If you think fly boys dont do any thing good then please keep believing it. Pearl Harbour, you know during battle of Asal Uttar IAF blew up a Pakistani train full with ammunition thus forcing them to send tanks with half ammunition? Ever heard of Operation Moked by Israel?

What concrete road? Paved roads are enough, not to mention that tanks don't need roads at all.
The problem is Arjun tank so heavy that it can sink in earth in Punjab.

Livefist: India's Arjun Mk.2 Tank Revealed

Punjab canal bridges too fragile for Arjun tank - Times Of India

Heavy tanks are not designed and manufactured by at least 50 years, same with medium tanks. Today we have only Main Battle Tanks. And yes, MBT's can operate in such environment because MBT's are designed to be capable to operate in different conditions, climate etc.
Yes MBT armour protection and fire power like Heavy tank but mobility like Medium tank, even MBTs are much heavier. That's why Pakistan refused US offer of M1 Abrams in 1980's
For 2nd may be but it is unlikely. When T 90 can roll but not heavy weight tank.

Nobody designs today such coffins for crews and dismounts. Today APC's and IFV's have greater protection and weight, and most of these new designs do not swim because there is no point to swim, protection is more important.
When I oppose tanks, still I prefer light tanks with heavy fire power with 125 mm rifled gun no matter how much protection you add it will be penetrated mainly if enemy have RPG 29's more ever more armour protection tank will be too bulky and heavy reducing it's mobility. Much like WW2 German Tiger tanks had superior protection but were slow and Soviet T 34's had thin protection but with good speed.

Not allways, tank gun fired multipurpose programmable HE round is more effective, as it is capable to penetrate bunker and explode inside. RPG's can't do this, their ammunition is too fragile.
Yes that's why CAS and that APC I mentioned with fire power like Bradley.

Tanks are only good in blowing up pill boxs from long distance you cant have CAS 24/7 Tanks not good in close combat such as in urban warfare. Before Tank can turn it's turret infantry will knock it out.
 
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Damian

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Nein, you keep saying air power is useless and waste of ammo. Of course air power cant replace ground war, but I meant not ground force as whole only tanks.
Without tanks, ground forces can't perform manouvere warfare, ground forces have limited offensive capabilities, ground forces have limited manouvere defence capabilities.

High command of Netherland ground forces said openly to politicians, that if they want to withdraw all tanks from service, ok fine, but do not expect ground forces to be capable to do everything ground forces are intended to do. What's worse, stupid politicians decided that they not only will withdraw from service all tanks, but also large quantities of other types of equipment like IFV's, SPH's etc.

Netherlands ground forces, thanks to people like you, are preaty much in the state of decomposition at this moment. For someone like me, who is close to homeland security issues, such politicians are just traitors that are on purpose compromising national security by decomposing the basic pillar of nations military strenght which are allways, ground forces.

Slovakian Flying Car Makes Short Test Flight - Speakeasy - WSJ

First flying car may go on sale in 2015 | SciTech | GMA News Online

Of course every thing is not possible such time machine. It is another topic though.
And you think this is practical? Hell no, instead of this piece of junk I preffer my Opel Vectra, which is simpler, easier to learn how to drive it, and most important, it is affordable for me and majority of humanity.

When Fighter Bombers and Strategic bombers may cause collateral damage CAS aircraft generally dont do.
Aha, right CAS aircrafts do not use bombs? So what they use? The drop candies?

For Tanks collateral damage see how Iraqi Republican Guard crushed revolts in 1991 Iraqi revolts, Tanks and artillery kept shelling over civilian area, rebels with few anti-tank weapons could do little.
Collateral damage depends on Government Strategy.
No, collateral damage also depends on weapon systems. Tanks use direct firing high calliber guns, which are precision weapons, their ammunition is designed to create damage on a very small surface.

Battle of Longewala by Wing Commander Kukke Suresh

http://archive.tehelka.com/story_mai...truthneeds.asp

http://archive.tehelka.com/story_mai...8the_truth.asp

First hand report, read it carefully.
Can't you understand that at this time, 30mm ammunition and unguided rockets were incapable to perforate armor of a ZTZ-59 which was a copy of T-54? 30mm have too low penetration abilities, and unguided rockets were back in these times equiped with HE warheads, what you want to do with this against armored vehicle? Such unguided rockets also needed to be lightweight, so not much HE filler can fit in them.

No I am not Nazi fan my avatar is funny gif image. Third Reich is only for trolling purpose such some say their location "unconfirmed" some say Glob Trotting like this.
This shows stupidity.

You know battle ships are no longer in use generally? I dont think railguns will replace ASMs and what about Naval aviation?
Battle ships as a class no, but a Navy vessels of different types are also form of battle ships. As for railguns, why you don't think? Railgun have advantages over ASM's, it's ammunition is cheaper, smaller, you can store it more, it is safer as there is no fuel or propelant charge, there can be guided and unguided types, different types of warheads from kinetic to explosive, it's ammunition is faster, to less time from firing to hitting target, greater range.

And yeah, even naval aviation might not be as much needed after Navy field railguns, with enough power railguns can have a very long range, it is then safer and cheaper to fire a salvos from railguns than send overexpensive aircrafts on dangerous missions risking their lost and lost of pilots, and these pilots are also expensive when we consider costs of their training, food, medical care for them, their salarys, support for their families.

Yes real soldiers are infantry men not Tankers.
Say this to a tank crew member, I am curious if he would not kill you by a single hit with fist in to your ugly face. :D

For your informations kid. Tank crews have one of the most dangerous and difficult work to do, this even means daily, peace time training and maintnance.

But what a little sissy like you can know about this eh? Try to maintain tracks only, each track weight approx 2 metric tons, track links are heavy.

To be a tank crew member then, you need a variety of skills, you need to be strong, but also smart, during initial training you need to learn a lot of things from thick manuals. So this is not work for dumbasses.

f you think fly boys dont do any thing good then please keep believing it. Pearl Harbour, you know during battle of Asal Uttar IAF blew up a Pakistani train full with ammunition thus forcing them to send tanks with half ammunition? Ever heard of Operation Moked by Israel?
I am not impressed, especially knowing how many times "fly boys" ----s everything in beautifull way. Hey "fly boys" many times do not recognize their own forces, causing friendly fire and casualties on their own forces. and this happens much more often than in case of ground forces.

The problem is Arjun tank so heavy that it can sink in earth in Punjab.

Livefist: India's Arjun Mk.2 Tank Revealed

Punjab canal bridges too fragile for Arjun tank - Times Of India
And you think this is a problem? In fact tanks were operating in worser conditions with great success. Americans used medium tanks even if Vietnam, and today their conclusions are that using M48's was good idea, and these tanks were damn usefull.

Yes MBT armour protection and fire power like Heavy tank but mobility like Medium tank, even MBTs are much heavier.
No you moron. MBT's protection, firepower and mobility are superior to heavy and medium tanks. And no, not all MBT's are much heavier, some are lighter than old heavy tanks, while still being superior. Weight have nothing to do here.

That's why Pakistan refused US offer of M1 Abrams in 1980's
Wrong, Pakistanis have nothing to say here. It was a simple deal, Americans demanded Pakistanis to close their nuclear program, Pakistan refused, Americans said, so no new tanks.

Besides this, Pakistans terrain is as good to use tanks as any other. Look Americans use M1 tanks in Afghanistan with great success. Marines are just delighted and happy that they had support of M1 tanks.

For 2nd may be but it is unlikely. When T 90 can roll but not heavy weight tank.
T-90 is MBT, just like M1 or Arjun, all of them as MBT's are universal battle machines that can operate in many types of environments.

When I oppose tanks, still I prefer light tanks with heavy fire power with 125 mm rifled gun no matter how much protection you add it will be penetrated mainly if enemy have RPG 29's more ever more armour protection tank will be too bulky and heavy reducing it's mobility. Much like WW2 German Tiger tanks had superior protection but were slow and Soviet T 34's had thin protection but with good speed.
There is no such thing as rifled 125mm gun. And yes, light tanks will be penetrated by RPG-29.

No, adding more protection does not mean too bulky and too heavy or reduced mobility in some significant way. You are comparing WWII primitive tanks with modern technology, which again shows how stupid you are and how little you know.

Modern MBT's can without a problem achieve a maximum speed of 70-72 km/h (and this speed is governed for safety reasons, without governor, modern MBT's could drive on roads with speed close or exceeding even 100 km/h) weighting even above 60 tons, Tiger 1 weighting 56-57 tons was incapable to achieve such speed. And there is more. Modern MBT's use advanced protection, their front armor thickness is approx 800-900mm and still they weight only 3 or 5 tons more than a Tiger 1 with primitive homogeneus steel armor with maximum thickness of 100-110mm.

What do you want to compare here?

Today light tanks have even smaller or same tactical mobility as MBT's. You can even look at your beloved Wikipedia to check data.

M8 Armored Gun System - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
M551 Sheridan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
2S25 Sprut-SD - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Here you have some light tanks.

M1 Abrams - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Leopard 2 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
AMX-56 Leclerc - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Arjun (tank) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Altay (tank) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I do not see how a light tank would be capable these days to outmanouvere a modern MBT, their mobility as actually the same, but MBT can survive a hit from light tanks main armament, light tank can't survive.

Not to mention that you believe in a myth of some super manouverability of T-34, in fact this tank in it's original T-34/76 variants was pain in the ass to drive. I doubt that a kid like you would be even capable to change a gear in it, this is how heavy operating this mechanism was. Not to mention how unrealiable T-34/76 was, it broke often, had a low operational range, mainly due to inefficent Pomon air filters.

Yes that's why CAS and that APC I mentioned with fire power like Bradley.
M2 have insufficent firepower these days and for future, this is why GCV IFV will have a 30mm automatic cannon instead of 25mm.

Tanks are only good in blowing up pill boxs from long distance you cant have CAS 24/7 Tanks not good in close combat such as in urban warfare. Before Tank can turn it's turret infantry will knock it out.
What BS is this?

Tanks can remain on battlefield for longer periods of time than aircrafts of any kind. Tanks proved theirselfs they can be very effective in urban warfare, Americans proven that in Iraq.

And You know what, modern tanks can turn their turrets very fast, whole 360 degree turn takes in modern tanks less than 10 seconds!

You see, you know nothing.

Lastly I must appreciate that you are good in behaviour unlike Damian.
You have luck we do not speak in person, I have no tolerance for idiots.
 
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militarysta

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@militarysta

1) I have enough knowledge about WW2, I know how Poland suffered under Nazi rule, people were summarily executed and many horrible things. Waffen SS was elite WW2 German military unit much like Iraqi Republican Guard plus I like their uniform, I dont deny Holocaust. If any one denies holocaust send them to me I will show their facts are wrong. For my avatar see it is funny. It is funny gif image.
Poland suffered in the same way form Soviet Union and Nazi Germany. For polish popels Nazi = Soviet Union, gestapo = NKVD, german ocupation = soviet ocupation. The only one thing is that after 1941 Soviet union became a western aliant and stop mass genocide on polish people (like between IX 1939 and 22 XI 1941), but during 1944/1945 no single people in poland have a "mirage" - soviet army win german army, and german brutal ocupation (and genocide) was replaced by soviet brutal ocupation whit "selective genocide" -against polish elits (generally - peopels whit hight education and "old" elits). And new "free poland" under soviet okupation means total soviet domination and eliminated all old elits. In fact it was very brutal ocupation.

Waffen SS was "elite" ONLY before 1941. Ater that we have many ukrainian, estonian, russian (!) and other units in "waffen SS". Only equipment was "elite" in this units. Old SS was replaced (since circa 1941-1944) by somthing what can be describe as "duplicated wermaht". You shoud read something about Waffen SS and 3 base of this formation,and in fact Wermaht units where better trained, better command, and achive better result whit minor losses then SS units.
Please read something about this formation. Some books, or PHDs works.




2) Yes apples and oranges, who says armed force will be replaced by air power? Real war is fought by infantry, I am talking about infantry carried anti-tank weapons and their effects on tanks. Infantry carried RPG teams can do much better than slow moving tanks to blow up pill boxes. In which scale infantry is deadly to tanks they are not deadly much against air power.
Tanks can't be replaced by air or infanty, and infanty or air can't be replaced by tanks. in fact tanks on conventional warfare are almoust tottal imune agianst AT infanty weapons (and most ATGMs) for some angle: +/-30. from tank longitiudal axis. this angle (60 degree in fornt of the tank - so +/-30.) means some "seafty for tank". And no, RPG-29/28,30 will not penetrate forntally 9and for this angle). the same most of the ATGMs. All is based on tactis - how recon is good, and beeing foward against the anemy.
For COIN operations sudently attack from AT weapons can come form angle close to 30-90 from tan lognitiudal axis. So hull and turret sides. No single tank was developed to survive this whit "standard armour". Most "urban" modernisaton for tank: Strret Fighter, TUSK, AZUR, PSO, CAN, can improved armour protection over the hand-held AT weapons -including RPG-29 and others. Of coure it's means incarase total weight up to 65-70 metric tons. So very heavy.
But still -nothing can replaced tanks for sevral resons. The most important is that tank allway will be ON the battelfield whit infanty or mehanizated infanty. And ONLY tanks can give infanty fire support in less then 14s before indicaded the target.



4) I already told you air power was not only used to attack tanks, 1/3 of coalition aircraft was dedicated to attack Iraqi Scud launchers. Please count it.
And so what? During 1991 air strikes not broke Iraq Land Forces. And Air Strikes don't really harm iraq land forces. It's fact that Air Forces did minor losses. Really minor.

2ndly in Kosovo war, A 10 was not much used, Coalition enjoyed absolute air superiority in Gulf war, A 10 which is good in tank busting roll was not much used in Kosovo war, instead F 15, F 16, CF 18, F/A 18 B 2 F 117 were used. This planes are not good for CAS. This air attack was intended to destroy Yugoslav air defence system and high value military targets.
No, its not true. NATO have tottal air superiority over Kosovo, and aim was very clear - by air strikes destroyed serbian land forces in Kosovo. And they faild. With over ten thousand attacks sucesfull was only 58!



For T 72 it was used by Bathist Republican Guard and Saddam with drew it mostly in midst of air attack, Iraqi army was left behind. Indicating most Republican Guard escaped from Gulf war so most t 72's example is 1991 Iraqi uprising when Republican Guard played key role to put down revolts.
For me the most obious result give comision to checkt destoryed iraqi tanks and as I quoted part of the article:
48% was (abandoned) without any damage
35% was destroyed by Ground Forces (Armed Forces)
17% was destroyed by Air Forces
More or less: during 4 days assault Armed Forces destroyed two times more tanks then Air Forces during 43 + 4 (47days) Air Campain. .
Can you notice the diffrence?
 
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Waffen SS

New Member
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Messages
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At least you here make some sense.:thumb:

Without tanks, ground forces can't perform manouvere warfare, ground forces have limited offensive capabilities, ground forces have limited manouvere defence capabilities.
Theoretically, but Chadian Militia proved it wrong when they defeated conventionally armed Libyan army using toyota cars armed with MILAN ATGMs.

Toyota War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Or jeep mounted Recoilless Gunners they played very important role for India in Asal Uttar.

High command of Netherland ground forces said openly to politicians, that if they want to withdraw all tanks from service, ok fine, but do not expect ground forces to be capable to do everything ground forces are intended to do. What's worse, stupid politicians decided that they not only will withdraw from service all tanks, but also large quantities of other types of equipment like IFV's, SPH's etc.Netherlands ground forces, thanks to people like you, are preaty much in the state of decomposition at this moment. For someone like me, who is close to homeland security issues, such politicians are just traitors that are on purpose compromising national security by decomposing the basic pillar of nations military strenght which are allways, ground forces.
No one is going to attack them, they can even disband Military, days of warfare in Europe is over. They are currently busy in ultraliberalism like other European countries, such as Sweden. Immigration, homosexuality are killing Europe and political correctness, @apple here is your answer about modern Germany.

7,500 Germans have been murdered by Muslims since the Berlin wall fell – but Muslims demand curriculum on "anti-Islam crimes" |

And when Germans react they are neo-Nazi?:mad::truestory: Nothing wrong to protect your own. I am very much concerned about future of Europe, homosexuality, low birth rate increase of old people trying replenish it taking immigrants from Asia and Africa? Stupid idea. No multiculturalism in Europe

And you think this is practical? Hell no, instead of this piece of junk I preffer my Opel Vectra, which is simpler, easier to learn how to drive it, and most important, it is affordable for me and majority of humanity.
I am not saying all cars will be flying cars how ever some of them must be flying cars, much like when Navy was transitioning from sail ships to steam ship some ships were sail some steamer like this, how ever flying cars will be costly.
You drive Opel Vectra actually while dreaming you are in Tank?

Aha, right CAS aircrafts do not use bombs? So what they use? The drop candies?
CAS aircraft target Military vehicles and enemy fortifications they dont invade deep within enemy territory it is left for Fighter Bombers and Strategic bombers.

No, collateral damage also depends on weapon systems. Tanks use direct firing high calliber guns, which are precision weapons, their ammunition is designed to create damage on a very small surface.
True and also because when tanks fight there no civilian remains any longer they just flee. Majority civilian causality happens by artillery attack, massacre or indiscriminate air attack.

Can't you understand that at this time, 30mm ammunition and unguided rockets were incapable to perforate armor of a ZTZ-59 which was a copy of T-54? 30mm have too low penetration abilities, and unguided rockets were back in these times equiped with HE warheads, what you want to do with this against armored vehicle? Such unguided rockets also needed to be lightweight, so not much HE filler can fit in them.
So you meant each time IAF guys landed and used hammer to make rockets penetrated in Tanks armour? :wtf::blah:

This shows stupidity.
If you think so.

Battle ships as a class no, but a Navy vessels of different types are also form of battle ships. As for railguns, why you don't think? Railgun have advantages over ASM's, it's ammunition is cheaper, smaller, you can store it more, it is safer as there is no fuel or propelant charge, there can be guided and unguided types, different types of warheads from kinetic to explosive, it's ammunition is faster, to less time from firing to hitting target, greater range.

And yeah, even naval aviation might not be as much needed after Navy field railguns, with enough power railguns can have a very long range, it is then safer and cheaper to fire a salvos from railguns than send overexpensive aircrafts on dangerous missions risking their lost and lost of pilots, and these pilots are also expensive when we consider costs of their training, food, medical care for them, their salarys, support for their families.
Warship, not battleship. Railguns are not yet in use biggest problem of ASMs are they counter measures such as flares and chuffs during Yom Kippur War battle of Latakia Syrian Osa and Komer boats at first fired missile Israelis evaded it lated they fired their own missile which Syrians could not evade.

Or in Falkland's war an Exocet Missile actually intended to attack a British navy ship hit defenseless Atlantic Conveyer how ever Railguns are long way to replace ASMs

Say this to a tank crew member, I am curious if he would not kill you by a single hit with fist in to your ugly face. :D

For your informations kid. Tank crews have one of the most dangerous and difficult work to do, this even means daily, peace time training and maintnance.

But what a little sissy like you can know about this eh? Try to maintain tracks only, each track weight approx 2 metric tons, track links are heavy.

To be a tank crew member then, you need a variety of skills, you need to be strong, but also smart, during initial training you need to learn a lot of things from thick manuals. So this is not work for dumbasses.
And direct combat action? Presently Indian troops are engaged in Kashmir how many Tankers saw active service? Infantry men have most hazardous service. Tankers seat in protection of tank, infantry is open to all

I am not impressed, especially knowing how many times "fly boys" ----s everything in beautifull way. Hey "fly boys" many times do not recognize their own forces, causing friendly fire and casualties on their own forces. and this happens much more often than in case of ground forces.
True about trigger happy US Air force not Indian air force friendly fire can happen if you cant recognize.

And you think this is a problem? In fact tanks were operating in worser conditions with great success. Americans used medium tanks even if Vietnam, and today their conclusions are that using M48's was good idea, and these tanks were damn usefull.
M 48 Patton had a problem of getting struck in mud check out more. Worse conditions? how many tank war you see in Pacific area in WW2? Tanks simply cant role in Jungle and Muddy area.

However, the Sheridan did not get stuck in the mud as often as the 52-ton M48 Patton tank did, nor did it throw its track off as often as the Patton. This alone was enough to win the tank crews' favor.[citation needed] The light weight and high mobility proved their worth, and the gun proved an effective anti-personnel weapon when used with either the M657 HE shell or the M625 canister round, which used thousands of flechettes as projectiles.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M551_Sheridan#Performance

Or Pakistani M 48's struck in mud in 1965 war?

No you moron. MBT's protection, firepower and mobility are superior to heavy and medium tanks. And no, not all MBT's are much heavier, some are lighter than old heavy tanks, while still being superior. Weight have nothing to do here.
Most MBTs are heavy M1 61.3 Tonne. Challenger 2 62.5 Tonne not much weight huh?

T-90 is MBT, just like M1 or Arjun, all of them as MBT's are universal battle machines that can operate in many types of environments.
Listen T 90 is comparatively light MBT compared to M1. And T 90 is lighter than Arjun.

There is no such thing as rifled 125mm gun. And yes, light tanks will be penetrated by RPG-29.
If there is no 125 mm rifled gun then produce it, I overall prefer rifled guns over smooth bore barrels because they are more accurate. For heavy armour it will make Tanks heavy you know during Toyota war Chadians discovered if they drive their Pick up Vans over 100 kph then anti-tank mines will not explode?

M2 have insufficent firepower these days and for future, this is why GCV IFV will have a 30mm automatic cannon instead of 25mm.
I insisted on having anti-tank TOWs that are deadly against tanks.

What BS is this?

Tanks can remain on battlefield for longer periods of time than aircrafts of any kind. Tanks proved theirselfs they can be very effective in urban warfare, Americans proven that in Iraq.

And You know what, modern tanks can turn their turrets very fast, whole 360 degree turn takes in modern tanks less than 10 seconds!
Is Iraq war a war? Those are insurgents You see Russian experience in 1st Chechen war Germans in Staliangrad and Soviets in Berlin? Iraqi insurgents are poorly trained.

You have luck we do not speak in person, I have no tolerance for idiots.
:blah::playball:

Who cares?
 
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Damian

Senior Member
Joined
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Messages
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Theoretically, but Chadian Militia proved it wrong when they defeated conventionally armed Libyan army using toyota cars armed with MILAN ATGMs.

Toyota War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Or jeep mounted Recoilless Gunners they played very important role for India in Asal Uttar.
Pfff, with such piece of junk You can't fight against modern, well equiped and well trained military that have modern AFV's.

No one is going to attack them, they can even disband Military, days of warfare in Europe is over. They are currently busy in ultraliberalism like other European countries, such as Sweden. Immigration, homosexuality are killing Europe and political correctness, @apple here is your answer about modern Germany.

7,500 Germans have been murdered by Muslims since the Berlin wall fell – but Muslims demand curriculum on "anti-Islam crimes" |

And when Germans react they are neo-Nazi? Nothing wrong to protect your own. I am very much concerned about future of Europe, homosexuality, low birth rate increase of old people trying replenish it taking immigrants from Asia and Africa? Stupid idea. No multiculturalism in Europe
Netherlands or Germany are not whole Europe, and not all European countries feel so safe to even try to disband their military forces. In fact in Europe there is stronger and stronger opposition in many countries for wasting money on stupidity you mentions here, and instead people, especially young people, wishes they countries to have a stronger military forces.

I am not saying all cars will be flying cars how ever some of them must be flying cars, much like when Navy was transitioning from sail ships to steam ship some ships were sail some steamer like this, how ever flying cars will be costly.
Flying car is idiotic idea from economic point of view and practical point of view, which teenager like you, is unable to understand.

You drive Opel Vectra actually while dreaming you are in Tank?
You think you are funny? You would need to improve your IQ to properly use sarcasm.

CAS aircraft target Military vehicles and enemy fortifications they dont invade deep within enemy territory it is left for Fighter Bombers and Strategic bombers.
Oh really? Tell this to USAF which used CAS over civilian populated areas as well. World is not as perfect as in your computer games.

True and also because when tanks fight there no civilian remains any longer they just flee. Majority civilian causality happens by artillery attack, massacre or indiscriminate air attack.
And this is why it is better to use armor mechanized forces.

So you meant each time IAF guys landed and used hammer to make rockets penetrated in Tanks armour?
It means that informations you use, are all lies moron.

Warship, not battleship.
Semantics.

Railguns are not yet in use biggest problem of ASMs are they counter measures such as flares and chuffs during Yom Kippur War battle of Latakia Syrian Osa and Komer boats at first fired missile Israelis evaded it lated they fired their own missile which Syrians could not evade.

Or in Falkland's war an Exocet Missile actually intended to attack a British navy ship hit defenseless Atlantic Conveyer how ever Railguns are long way to replace ASMs
Either way, railguns are future of the modern Navy.

And direct combat action? Presently Indian troops are engaged in Kashmir how many Tankers saw active service? Infantry men have most hazardous service. Tankers seat in protection of tank, infantry is open to all
Why should I care what Indian troops are doing in Kashmir? We, I mean NATO have our own experiences in COIN and conventional warfare, and we believe that AFV's (which also means tanks) are integral part of armed forces, and we learned how usefull they are in vast spectrum of different situations. We do not need others opinions what we should do.

True about trigger happy US Air force not Indian air force friendly fire can happen if you cant recognize.
All airforces are trigger happy, be it USAF or IAF.

M 48 Patton had a problem of getting struck in mud check out more. Worse conditions? how many tank war you see in Pacific area in WW2? Tanks simply cant role in Jungle and Muddy area.
USMC disagree with you. During WWII USMC learned how usefull infantry support can tanks provide also on small islands.

M551 Sheridan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Or Pakistani M 48's struck in mud in 1965 war?
Fault of crews if they were unable to properly navigate and whats more, recovery vehicles that were stuck.

Most MBTs are heavy M1 61.3 Tonne. Challenger 2 62.5 Tonne not much weight huh?
Yes, not much, preaty standard these days. We in Poland have similiar issues with Leopard 2A4's when we were aquiring them, that they are all too heavy for our bridges. In the end all these fears were false, and our armed forces are so happy with Leopard 2's, that not only we will modernize these we have, but we also purchase 120 more Leopard 2A5's which are even heavier.

Listen T 90 is comparatively light MBT compared to M1. And T 90 is lighter than Arjun.
No, T-90 is just comparable MBT with M1 or Arjun, weight have nothing to do here.

Future MBT's will have weight around 50-55 tons thanks to lighter unmanned turrets and crews placed completely in hull, and protection will rise compared to today's generation MBT's.

If there is no 125 mm rifled gun then produce it, I overall prefer rifled guns over smooth bore barrels.
It is funny how You preffer obsolete solution over modern solution. Rifled guns are piece of junk these days, they have no advantage in accuracy compared to modern smoothbores, have smaller capabilities, and have increased wear and tear due to rifling.

For heavy armour it will make Tanks heavy you know during Toyota war Chadians discovered if they drive their Pick up Vans over 100 kph then anti-tank mines will not explode?
Warfare is not a rally... who the hell would want to drive 100 kph in a war zone? It is dangerous, insane even, and do not permitt for precise fire.

I insisted on having anti-tank TOWs that are deadly against tanks.
TOW is obsolete, and will be withdraw from service as only JAGM will be avaiable in sufficent numbers.

Is Iraq war a war? Those are insurgents You see Russian experience in 1st Chechen war Germans in Staliangrad and Soviets in Berlin? Iraqi insurgents are poorly trained.
Only idiot underestimate insurgents. These insurgents were capable to inflict heavy losses despite their inferiority.

Who cares?
Me!

Besides this, there is even economy issues.

How much costs modern aircraft, how much costs modern AFV?

And then there are not only production costs, but there are service life costs, managament costs.

In case of aircrafts there is a huge problem how reduce both production and service life costs.

In case of AFV's the future is however promising. Their overall costs is not that high, and can be reduced. But the most promising is reduction of service life costs. We are on the edge of next major step in evolution of ground vehicles, where conventional combustible engines will be replaced by hybrid diesel-electric drives, which will reduce fuel costs and increase operational range of vehicles as well as increasing time when they can operate. And in a long term, we might completely resign from combustion of fossil fuels, and use completely electric engines.

And this is not the end, new materials for tracks, suspension, even vehicles basic structure, will increase their service life, reduce wear and tear, thus reducing operational costs. Also new materials for armor protection, like nano materials, can reduce weight without sacrificing protection.

This is the future, a very promising future.

But it would be problematic to proper a jet fighter with hybrid electric drive or fully electric drive, which means that in the future, aircrafts, might not be the most economic solution at all.
 
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Waffen SS

New Member
Joined
Apr 28, 2013
Messages
492
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348
Pfff, with such piece of junk You can't fight against modern, well equiped and well trained military that have modern AFV's.
Your problem is you dont accept examples stick in your own Libyan army was well "equiped" in perspective of 1980's and Indian RCL gunners played key role in defeating Pakistani armour,

Netherlands or Germany are not whole Europe, and not all European countries feel so safe to even try to disband their military forces. In fact in Europe there is stronger and stronger opposition in many countries for wasting money on stupidity you mentions here, and instead people, especially young people, wishes they countries to have a stronger military forces.
How many young people? Low birth rate and declining of ethnic population is problem all over Europe.

Flying car is idiotic idea from economic point of view and practical point of view, which teenager like you, is unable to understand.
Yes because still cost of flying car is too heavy people wont buy in large scale unless they became cheap.

You think you are funny? You would need to improve your IQ to properly use sarcasm.
Your tank addiction says me all. My IQ well improved it is you who does not understand examples and reality.

Oh really? Tell this to USAF which used CAS over civilian populated areas as well. World is not as perfect as in your computer games.
What plane was used in CAS? Dont people die in ground war? Terrorists use civilians as human shield , you need infantry neither tanks nor aircraft to clear house to house from insurgents.

And this is why it is better to use armor mechanized forces.
And then let enemy to take out your vehicles by land mines and RPG and air strike? US planners are more matured than you if armed Mechanized troops are better they would not do bombing of Iraq in 1991.

It means that informations you use, are all lies moron.
It is perfect reason why you are so much addicted to tank, the sites I gave you are best and they are first hand report yes Tanks were blown up by 30 mm and T 10 rockets if you dont want to believe make a time machine and go there see it in your own eyes stupid.

Semantics.
No, lots of people use the term "Warship" to refer any type of ship of combat than your Battleship. And they are smarter than you. Grammatically both battle and War mean combat so both Battleship and warship mean those ships with combat ability how ever Battleship is only used to refer Big warship.

Why should I care what Indian troops are doing in Kashmir? We, I mean NATO have our own experiences in COIN and conventional warfare, and we believe that AFV's (which also means tanks) are integral part of armed forces, and we learned how usefull they are in vast spectrum of different situations. We do not need others opinions what we should do.
NATO operations? Indian army is best in COIN operation with vast experience. You Mean NATO insurgent operations? Where does NATO fight? In Afghanistan? Well Taliban is more like a militia force than insurgent force plus they are poorly trained same to Iraq's where as Kashmir's terrorists are all Pakistani army trained.

Perhaps you are mixing militia force with insurgent force right?

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/indian-army/54693-involvement-pakisthani-sf-behind-attack-september-26-nsfw.html

All airforces are trigger happy, be it USAF or IAF.
Prove it, apart from East Pakistan Air Operations, 1971 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia this I dont know any other friendly fire on ground force by IAF.

USMC disagree with you. During WWII USMC learned how usefull infantry support can tanks provide also on small islands.
Show me, tanks in Pacific were used as artillery pieces as their mobility was limited. Yes in some big island's such as Okinawa tanks performed well not to mention Japanese anti tank system was not good like Germans but in tropical islands Tanks played minor role.

Fault of crews if they were unable to properly navigate and whats more, recovery vehicles that were stuck.
Infact most of tanks were slightly damaged crews then could not drive them any more and thus abandoned and India showed them in various places as war trophy which does not happen in case of Helicopters generally.

Yes, not much, preaty standard these days. We in Poland have similiar issues with Leopard 2A4's when we were aquiring them, that they are all too heavy for our bridges. In the end all these fears were false, and our armed forces are so happy with Leopard 2's, that not only we will modernize these we have, but we also purchase 120 more Leopard 2A5's which are even heavier.
Leopard 2 is excellent tank the problem for India is not only bridge but also terrain of Punjab and Gujarat are not suitable for them, earth is too soft more ever does Polish army fight several thousands feet height like Indian army? T 90s to border of China, T 72's to Punjab and Gujarat while Arjuns for Rajasthan desert.

It is funny how You preffer obsolete solution over modern solution. Rifled guns are piece of junk these days, they have no advantage in accuracy compared to modern smoothbores, have smaller capabilities, and have increased wear and tear due to rifling.
Indian Arjun and British Challenger 2 use rifled gun.

Smaller capabilities?

Armed with a 120 mm rifled gun, the Arjun is believed to be capable of firing APFSDS (Kinetic Energy) rounds, HE, HEAT, High Explosive Squash Head (HESH) rounds at the rate of 6-8 rounds per minute and the Israeli developed semi-active laser guided LAHAT missile.
Arjun (tank) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You need to know some thing about Napoleonic war and US revolutionary war era things, while smooth bore Brown Bess and Charleville musket vs Baker rifle and Kentucky long rifle, while muskets are horribly inaccurate but high rate of fire and for rifles it was opposite.

Warfare is not a rally... who the hell would want to drive 100 kph in a war zone? It is dangerous, insane even, and do not permitt for precise fire.
Chadians did to cross anti-tank mine fields with success, purpose of running in 100 kph is not to make accuare fire instead to cross anti tank mine fileld.

TOW is obsolete, and will be withdraw from service as only JAGM will be avaiable in sufficent numbers.
By referring it I meant having ability to fire anti tank missile which BTR 60 cant like modern LAHAT or Jevelins.

Only idiot underestimate insurgents. These insurgents were capable to inflict heavy losses despite their inferiority.
Only by Suicide bombing? Check out US's Vietnam war era causality by Viet Cong and Iraq war causality.

Me!

Besides this, there is even economy issues.

How much costs modern aircraft, how much costs modern AFV?

And then there are not only production costs, but there are service life costs, managament costs.

In case of aircrafts there is a huge problem how reduce both production and service life costs.

In case of AFV's the future is however promising. Their overall costs is not that high, and can be reduced. But the most promising is reduction of service life costs. We are on the edge of next major step in evolution of ground vehicles, where conventional combustible engines will be replaced by hybrid diesel-electric drives, which will reduce fuel costs and increase operational range of vehicles as well as increasing time when they can operate. And in a long term, we might completely resign from combustion of fossil fuels, and use completely electric engines.

And this is not the end, new materials for tracks, suspension, even vehicles basic structure, will increase their service life, reduce wear and tear, thus reducing operational costs. Also new materials for armor protection, like nano materials, can reduce weight without sacrificing protection.

This is the future, a very promising future.

But it would be problematic to proper a jet fighter with hybrid electric drive or fully electric drive, which means that in the future, aircrafts, might not be the most economic solution at all.
I like it

Air craft costs too much compared to AFV and aircraft is aircraft, yes using other energy than fossil oil it can be also used in air craft and new weapons for armour armour penetration of course technology advances in all way not only to improve tank's armour.

Nano technology? then what is wrong with mechs?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanotechnology#Health_and_environmental_concerns
 
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Damian

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Your problem is you dont accept examples stick in your own Libyan army was well "equiped" in perspective of 1980's and Indian RCL gunners played key role in defeating Pakistani armour,
And your problem is that you are dumb, poorly educated teenager who tries to teach adults how to do things. Hey maybe go to your father and try to teach him how to made children eh?

How many young people? Low birth rate and declining of ethnic population is problem all over Europe.
It does not matter how many, and I preatty much don't care if in Germany or other western European country there are problems. In my country such problems are minor, and we are not political correct nation, so any minority is welcome if they accept our rules.

It is something immposible that muslim children would be able to terrorize our children in schools like they do in Germany, but this is a very nature of slavic countries, we have different perception on this subjects.

Yes because still cost of flying car is too heavy people wont buy in large scale unless they became cheap.
And they won't be cheap. Besides please, explain me, why I would need such thing? To do what? To fly without a purpose? Where I would land? I would need to build landing strip on my street? Immposible, to expensive and stree is too short.

So please explain me, why for the sake of logic, I should purchase such useless piece of junk?

Your tank addiction says me all. My IQ well improved it is you who does not understand examples and reality.
No, you are still, little dumb piece of shit.

Sorry, this is reality.

What plane was used in CAS? Dont people die in ground war? Terrorists use civilians as human shield , you need infantry neither tanks nor aircraft to clear house to house from insurgents.
A-10 for example dumbass. And yes, people generally die in wars, because wars are nasty thing. And yes terrorists use civilians as shields.

As for infantry, infantry is fragile, and can't do much without support from AFV's, AFV's like tanks and IFV's provide protection, supressive fire, draw enemy attention so infantry is safer and can do it's tasks. It is a system, althout I doubt you understand what system is.

And then let enemy to take out your vehicles by land mines and RPG and air strike? US planners are more matured than you if armed Mechanized troops are better they would not do bombing of Iraq in 1991.
And this is probably why US planners in 1991 used huge armor mechanized formations to literally destroy Iraqi armed forces. This is also why US planners done exactly the same in 2003. This is probably why Israeli planners say openly that in 2006, if they would not use tanks, their forces would take much more casualties, and this is probably why Israeli planners openly admitted that IAF is overfunded waste of money with small efficency, and why IDF (ground forces) should receive more money, this is probably also why IDF decided that instead of closing Merkava tank production plant, they will order more brand new Merkava Mk4 and heavy Namer APC's. This is probably why British Army resigned from scrapping Challenger 2 tanks, and decided that they need to modernize them untill new tank to replace them will be avaiable. This is probably why Russian Army wants 3 completely new modular platforms among them heavy platform "Armata" for a next generation MBT.

Damn this is probably why, in my own country, goverment and Military funds programs to purchase new AFV's, among them also tanks.

So who is dumb here?

It is perfect reason why you are so much addicted to tank, the sites I gave you are best and they are first hand report yes Tanks were blown up by 30 mm and T 10 rockets if you dont want to believe make a time machine and go there see it in your own eyes stupid.
The sites you give are worth nothing more than pile of shit.

Hawker Hunter uses 30mm ADEN automatic cannon, which is shity anti armor weapon system, I don't even know how you use it efficently against any tank. And T10 rockets are French for SNEB launchers, it's calliber is not something impressive, neither should be very effective, even with HEAT warhead. And then there is also problem of accuracy of such weapon system.

No, lots of people use the term "Warship" to refer any type of ship of combat than your Battleship. And they are smarter than you. Grammatically both battle and War mean combat so both Battleship and warship mean those ships with combat ability how ever Battleship is only used to refer Big warship.
Ok, but you are neither smarter than me dumbass, neither I am interested in Navy vessels really.

NATO operations? Indian army is best in COIN operation with vast experience. You Mean NATO insurgent operations? Where does NATO fight? In Afghanistan? Well Taliban is more like a militia force than insurgent force plus they are poorly trained same to Iraq's where as Kashmir's terrorists are all Pakistani army trained.

Perhaps you are mixing militia force with insurgent force right?

Involvement of Pakisthani SF behind attack on September 26 ( NSFW )
If you think that Talibans or Iraqi insurgents were and are all incompetent fools, then you are just like that, an incompetent, ignorant fool. Many of them are former military, smart, and dangerous, inflicting a lot of casualties. Our soldiers respect them as enemy.

Show me, tanks in Pacific were used as artillery pieces as their mobility was limited. Yes in some big island's such as Okinawa tanks performed well not to mention Japanese anti tank system was not good like Germans but in tropical islands Tanks played minor role.
Yeah, aha, and this is why USMC is funding it's tank battalions up to this day? They see how usefull tanks are, in fact USMC today is deeply modernizing it's tanks to increase their capabilities even further.

Infact most of tanks were slightly damaged crews then could not drive them any more and thus abandoned and India showed them in various places as war trophy which does not happen in case of Helicopters generally.
Because this is what happens, when something that fragile, hit the ground at high speed:



Not much to display, untill You wish to display a piece of junk.

Leopard 2 is excellent tank the problem for India is not only bridge but also terrain of Punjab and Gujarat are not suitable for them, earth is too soft more ever does Polish army fight several thousands feet height like Indian army? T 90s to border of China, T 72's to Punjab and Gujarat while Arjuns for Rajasthan desert.
Look at the map. We had plenty of rivers, big and small, we have mountains, we have a lots of forests and also swaps and lakes, still yet, we do not have a problems with operating here tanks weighting well above 55 tons.

Indian Arjun and British Challenger 2 use rifled gun.

Smaller capabilities?
So what they use obsolete armament systems? Future is only for smoothbore guns, everyone knows it. Who besides India manufactures rifled guns for tanks? Even UK long time ago admitted rifled gun have limited capabilities to smoothbore, now however they have a huge problem with rearming Challenger 2 with smoothbore, because it was designed for rifled gun with 3 piece ammunition, while smoothbores use single piece ammo.

As for smaller capabilities, ammunition fired from rifled guns have inferior capabilities, it's APFSDS ammunition for a 120mm ones, have penetration levels for late 1980's and early 1990's types of APFSDS for smoothbore guns.

Arjun (tank) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You need to know some thing about Napoleonic war and US revolutionary war era things, while smooth bore Brown Bess and Charleville musket vs Baker rifle and Kentucky long rifle, while muskets are horribly inaccurate but high rate of fire and for rifles it was opposite.
You moron, I do not talk about muskets firing ball shaped projectiles. Modern smoothbore guns use fin stabilized projectiles at velocities exceeding 1000 m/s, some APFSDS rounds achieve velocity of 1700 m/s, why you bring here a musket? Are you sane for Christ sake?

Air craft costs too much compared to AFV and aircraft is aircraft, yes using other energy than fossil oil it can be also used in air craft and new weapons for armour armour penetration of course technology advances in all way not only to improve tank's armour.
Jet powered aircrafts can't be improved, how you would achieve required speed by use of hybrid diesel-electric or only electric engine?

You can use only fossil fuels for them.

Nano technology? then what is wrong with mechs?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanotec...ental_concerns
Mech is a completely moronic idea. Why the hell I would want to sit in tall, easy to spot, low manouverable vehicle, which have problems with balance, can't be armored properly due to it's large internal volume needed for crew and all these hydraulic systems to move it's legs?

This is a pure fantasy to have a mech as battle machine, not to mention how large it would have pressure under it's legs feet, to compensate it would require to have feets lare to level that is impractical.

I completely understand that a kid like you who like computer games might believe in such bollocks, but scientisits and engineers do not.

As for nanotechnology, who give a damn to these concerns when it comes to military? This is same like depleted uranium, bunch of morons freak out about DU used in ammunition or armor, and hey, military don't give a damn, and in fact it's impacts on health or environement is minimal.

In future we will be able to create lightweight, ultrastrong structures thanks to nanotechnology. Did you ever heard about graphene? Graphene is 100 times stronger than strongest steel. Did you ever heard about ADNR or fullerenes? These materials are one of the hardest materials known to humanity, harder than diamonds. Or carbon nanotubes.

This is the future also for armor, we will be able to reduce weight of both body armor or vehicle armor, without sacrificing protection capabilities, this will be a true revolution.

Perhaps even in civilian use we will have thanks to these materials a real revolution. New structural materials for, let's say cars, which will make them stronger, better protecting people inside in case of accident. Probably even aircrafts will benefit from these materials, making them safer, more durable.
 
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Waffen SS

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And your problem is that you are dumb, poorly educated teenager who tries to teach adults how to do things. Hey maybe go to your father and try to teach him how to made children eh?
And you should go to your father to be more polite and to get rid of dogmatic attitude.

It does not matter how many, and I preatty much don't care if in Germany or other western European country there are problems. In my country such problems are minor, and we are not political correct nation, so any minority is welcome if they accept our rules.

It is something immposible that muslim children would be able to terrorize our children in schools like they do in Germany, but this is a very nature of slavic countries, we have different perception on this subjects.
You are new to this, when they will immigrate they will show they are peaceful when they became a formidable minority they will show their true face and no they will not accept your rule, you better should read "Germany is Abolishing itself" book, they will chant in road shouting God is greated(I doubt it cause their God says to kill infidels and to enslave enemy women) Poland is less developed than Germany or Britain. So not much problem still.

And they won't be cheap. Besides please, explain me, why I would need such thing? To do what? To fly without a purpose? Where I would land? I would need to build landing strip on my street? Immposible, to expensive and stree is too short.

So please explain me, why for the sake of logic, I should purchase such useless piece of junk?
When computer was invented it was purely for Military and scientific use and it was very costly now you have your own just wait and see.

No, you are still, little dumb piece of shit.

Sorry, this is reality.
Stick with your reality when you cant accept most credible website about India's defence.

A-10 for example dumbass. And yes, people generally die in wars, because wars are nasty thing. And yes terrorists use civilians as shields.

As for infantry, infantry is fragile, and can't do much without support from AFV's, AFV's like tanks and IFV's provide protection, supressive fire, draw enemy attention so infantry is safer and can do it's tasks. It is a system, althout I doubt you understand what system is.
I never said tanks do nothing, I said tank's vulnerability to infantry held RPG and air strike I insisted on light and superfast tanks with heavy fire power and APC.

And this is probably why US planners in 1991 used huge armor mechanized formations to literally destroy Iraqi armed forces. This is also why US planners done exactly the same in 2003. This is probably why Israeli planners say openly that in 2006, if they would not use tanks, their forces would take much more casualties, and this is probably why Israeli planners openly admitted that IAF is overfunded waste of money with small efficency, and why IDF (ground forces) should receive more money, this is probably also why IDF decided that instead of closing Merkava tank production plant, they will order more brand new Merkava Mk4 and heavy Namer APC's. This is probably why British Army resigned from scrapping Challenger 2 tanks, and decided that they need to modernize them untill new tank to replace them will be avaiable. This is probably why Russian Army wants 3 completely new modular platforms among them heavy platform "Armata" for a next generation MBT.

Damn this is probably why, in my own country, goverment and Military funds programs to purchase new AFV's, among them also tanks.

So who is dumb here?
Listen currently Israel no more engages in Country vs country warfare like they did in 1973 and 1967, they now fight against Hejbollah in Lebanon and HAMAS in Gaza and against this forces Israeli air force cant use it's full strength as they hide among civilian population. Do you want to kill hundreds of civilians just to kill few insurgents?

The Truth Seeker - How Many Tanks Did Israel Lose in 2006 War with Lebanon?

As for British Government if they wish to keep then they can how ever in Britain's current Falkland issue with Argentina I dont see much need for tanks, they need aircraft carrier.

The sites you give are worth nothing more than pile of shit.

Hawker Hunter uses 30mm ADEN automatic cannon, which is shity anti armor weapon system, I don't even know how you use it efficently against any tank. And T10 rockets are French for SNEB launchers, it's calliber is not something impressive, neither should be very effective, even with HEAT warhead. And then there is also problem of accuracy of such weapon system.
Then how that outcome happened? You are really not only ignorant and also arrogant. Any thing that does not match with your own version are all trash, :toilet:

If you think that Talibans or Iraqi insurgents were and are all incompetent fools, then you are just like that, an incompetent, ignorant fool. Many of them are former military, smart, and dangerous, inflicting a lot of casualties. Our soldiers respect them as enemy.
Causality and lots of? Did you compare US causality of Vietnam war and Iraq war? Some Iraqi insurgents are former Iraqi Republican Guard member how ever IRG was no match against US army or Marines as for Afghanistan most of former Military members died since long fighting in Afghanistan from 1979 and then fight among themselves(ever heard of Taliban vs Northern Alliance war?) and 2001 US invasion.

8 killed in militant attack ahead of PM's J&K visit - The Hindu

You see army was providing relief Militants attacked unarmed soldiers

Yeah, aha, and this is why USMC is funding it's tank battalions up to this day? They see how usefull tanks are, in fact USMC today is deeply modernizing it's tanks to increase their capabilities even further.
As I said tank's mobility depends on terrain USMC is no longer engaged in Island campaign. Tanks can roll good desert plain.

Because this is what happens, when something that fragile, hit the ground at high speed:



Not much to display, untill You wish to display a piece of junk.
And this is better than let enemy to show your ex military equipment as war trophy.

Look at the map. We had plenty of rivers, big and small, we have mountains, we have a lots of forests and also swaps and lakes, still yet, we do not have a problems with operating here tanks weighting well above 55 tons.




Does your army operate in this different area? Siachen is world's highest battle field, Dont teach your father how to make kids.:laugh::truestory:
Bana Singh - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So what they use obsolete armament systems? Future is only for smoothbore guns, everyone knows it. Who besides India manufactures rifled guns for tanks? Even UK long time ago admitted rifled gun have limited capabilities to smoothbore, now however they have a huge problem with rearming Challenger 2 with smoothbore, because it was designed for rifled gun with 3 piece ammunition, while smoothbores use single piece ammo.

As for smaller capabilities, ammunition fired from rifled guns have inferior capabilities, it's APFSDS ammunition for a 120mm ones, have penetration levels for late 1980's and early 1990's types of APFSDS for smoothbore guns.
Then I dont know why India decided to use Rifled Gun as you say please advise them.:noidea:

As for nanotechnology, who give a damn to these concerns when it comes to military? This is same like depleted uranium, bunch of morons freak out about DU used in ammunition or armor, and hey, military don't give a damn, and in fact it's impacts on health or environement is minimal.
You talked too much about collateral damage. Right? Then let's see Gulf war syndrome caused due to DU round.

Surprise! Iraq War Deaths Exceed Vietnam War
Dick and Hillary's Dirty Little Secret
Gulf war syndrome Pictures, Gulf war syndrome Image, News and Events Photo Gallery

Read it.
 
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Waffen SS

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Poland suffered in the same way form Soviet Union and Nazi Germany. For polish popels Nazi = Soviet Union, gestapo = NKVD, german ocupation = soviet ocupation. The only one thing is that after 1941 Soviet union became a western aliant and stop mass genocide on polish people (like between IX 1939 and 22 XI 1941), but during 1944/1945 no single people in poland have a "mirage" - soviet army win german army, and german brutal ocupation (and genocide) was replaced by soviet brutal ocupation whit "selective genocide" -against polish elits (generally - peopels whit hight education and "old" elits). And new "free poland" under soviet okupation means total soviet domination and eliminated all old elits. In fact it was very brutal ocupation.
Thanks for explaining the issue from Polish perspective, Communists in India say people were delighted when Soviet Army liberated them.

Waffen SS was "elite" ONLY before 1941. Ater that we have many ukrainian, estonian, russian (!) and other units in "waffen SS". Only equipment was "elite" in this units. Old SS was replaced (since circa 1941-1944) by somthing what can be describe as "duplicated wermaht". You shoud read something about Waffen SS and 3 base of this formation,and in fact Wermaht units where better trained, better command, and achive better result whit minor losses then SS units.
Please read something about this formation. Some books, or PHDs works.
Waffen-SS

Waffen SS also had Indians all though they did not participate in Holocaust

Indische Legion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Waffen

I know well mate.

Tanks can't be replaced by air or infanty, and infanty or air can't be replaced by tanks. in fact tanks on conventional warfare are almoust tottal imune agianst AT infanty weapons (and most ATGMs) for some angle: +/-30. from tank longitiudal axis. this angle (60 degree in fornt of the tank - so +/-30.) means some "seafty for tank". And no, RPG-29/28,30 will not penetrate forntally 9and for this angle). the same most of the ATGMs. All is based on tactis - how recon is good, and beeing foward against the anemy.
For COIN operations sudently attack from AT weapons can come form angle close to 30-90 from tan lognitiudal axis. So hull and turret sides. No single tank was developed to survive this whit "standard armour". Most "urban" modernisaton for tank: Strret Fighter, TUSK, AZUR, PSO, CAN, can improved armour protection over the hand-held AT weapons -including RPG-29 and others. Of coure it's means incarase total weight up to 65-70 metric tons. So very heavy.
But still -nothing can replaced tanks for sevral resons. The most important is that tank allway will be ON the battelfield whit infanty or mehanizated infanty. And ONLY tanks can give infanty fire support in less then 14s before indicaded the target.
Thanks for imformation so I said light APCs and more RPG team to blow up pill boxes and to fill gap of tank's fire power.

And so what? During 1991 air strikes not broke Iraq Land Forces. And Air Strikes don't really harm iraq land forces. It's fact that Air Forces did minor losses. Really minor.
Most estimate suggests about 10,000-12,000 Iraqi combat death from air campaign and about 10,000 deaths from ground combat.

Saddam expected to draw coalition in a long ground war so Iraqis hoped only after 3 or 4 day's air attack Coalition will start ground war, finally after long bombardment when ground war started Iraq's were exhausted. And even in Ground war Apache and A 10's provided close support many times.
"Correcting Myths about the Persian Gulf War: The Last Stand of the Tawakalna" by Bourque, Stephen A. - The Middle East Journal, Vol. 51, Issue 4, Autumn 1997 | Questia, Your Online Research Library

For me the most obious result give comision to checkt destoryed iraqi tanks and as I quoted part of the article:
48% was (abandoned) without any damage
35% was destroyed by Ground Forces (Armed Forces)
17% was destroyed by Air Forces
More or less: during 4 days assault Armed Forces destroyed two times more tanks then Air Forces during 43 + 4 (47days) Air Campain. .
Can you notice the diffrence?
FRONTLINE/WORLD . Iraq - Saddam's Road to Hell - A journey into the killing fields . PBS

Why the Uprisings Failed | Middle East Research and Information Project

For tank losses Coalition troops also inflicted about same number of Iraqi causality within few days compared to whole air campaign ground combat always inflicts more causality that's why Coalition tried to soften up Iraqi defence in 1991 first by air attack.
 

militarysta

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Thanks for explaining the issue from Polish perspective, Communists in India say people were delighted when Soviet Army liberated them.
No, they not - my famili survive "liberation" by Soviet Army in sevral big cities in Poland (Lublin, Bydgoszcz, etc) and ""liberation"" by Soviet Army ussaly means at least week orgy of raping any peopel what looks like women or young boy, dinking, killing some civilinas, robery just eny valuable thing (clocks, plates, etc). After this first time (ussaly 2-7 days) the rear forces and civilian (in fakt NKVD and colaborate whit them polish) came and there stand to be more seafe for civilian.
It was some important to notice diffrences between Wermaht and german ocupation and Soviet "liberation" and ocupation:
a) Wermaht forces ussaly don't robery family and don't rape. Civilinas can feel quite seafty when Wermaht was somwhere, but next german occupation was extremly bruttal and full of the planned extermination (jew, peopels whit hight education, etc)
b) soviet "liberation" means horror for the civilinas: they robbery just any possible to steal thing, and rape almoust any possible women :/ and very often they just killed cyvilinas for some "crime" -for example - resistans against robery or rape. But after that "civilian" administartion (in fact part military and NKVD and part civilian colaborate whit Soviets) came, and sucht polish-soviet ocupation was more better for peopels then previous german ones. Exept: peopels whit hight educaion, prists, ex govermant or ex administartion members (mens: before september 1939) -they where target for "liberators".
I hope that I explain this shortly and good :)


rest layter
 

apple

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No, they not - my famili survive "liberation" by Soviet Army in sevral big cities in Poland (Lublin, Bydgoszcz, etc) and ""liberation"" by Soviet Army ussaly means at least week orgy of raping any peopel what looks like women or young boy, dinking, killing some civilinas, robery just eny valuable thing (clocks, plates, etc). After this first time (ussaly 2-7 days) the rear forces and civilian (in fakt NKVD and colaborate whit them polish) came and there stand to be more seafe for civilian.
It was some important to notice diffrences between Wermaht and german ocupation and Soviet "liberation" and ocupation:
a) Wermaht forces ussaly don't robery family and don't rape. Civilinas can feel quite seafty when Wermaht was somwhere, but next german occupation was extremly bruttal and full of the planned extermination (jew, peopels whit hight education, etc)
b) soviet "liberation" means horror for the civilinas: they robbery just any possible to steal thing, and rape almoust any possible women :/ and very often they just killed cyvilinas for some "crime" -for example - resistans against robery or rape. But after that "civilian" administartion (in fact part military and NKVD and part civilian colaborate whit Soviets) came, and sucht polish-soviet ocupation was more better for peopels then previous german ones. Exept: peopels whit hight educaion, prists, ex govermant or ex administartion members (mens: before september 1939) -they where target for "liberators".
I hope that I explain this shortly and good :)


rest layter
WaffenSS supports Germany's Anschluß with Austria. He's started an extremely stupid thread with a (typically for him) moronic understanding of what he refers to as "Austria" (he meant Austro-Hungarian Empire) and "Prussia" (haven't even tried to guess what he meant by that).

India seems to be picking up the Persian/ Arab like of Hitler, and lack of negativity (or open support) towards the Soviet Union. Apparently, in their minds, embracing the memory of both revolutionary Communism and the Third Reich isn't ambiguous.

Southern Poland


Eastern Poland


Plenty of tanks have operated in Poland.

As mentioned, the reason the Pakistani Army didn't buy M1's wasn't because they were too heavy for the terrain in Pakistan, it was because the US wouldn't sell them to them.

As to why the Indian Army went along the T72 --> T90 --> Arjun path, instead of getting T80's/ something heavier, I have no idea and mobility most likely did play a large part in it. But, that wouldn't have been the only consideration.

Presume, and I once again have no idea, that the Arjun uses a rifled gun as those old British tanks you were manufacturing in India (sorry about not googling up their name... they were a pre Challenger 1 1960's(???) design) had a rifled gun and is was cheaper, and easier, to use the same(/similiar???) gun to one you were already making.
 
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Kunal Biswas

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Rifled gun are easier to make and cheaper to use ? that is new to me ..

Presume, and I once again have no idea, that the Arjun uses a rifled gun as those old British tanks you were manufacturing in India (sorry about not googling up their name... they were a pre Challenger 1 1960's(???) design) had a rifled gun and is was cheaper, and easier, to use the same(/similiar???) gun to one you were already making.
 

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