Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

If Tanks have to evolve, which path they should follow?

  • Light Vehicles-Best for mobility

    Votes: 25 7.3%
  • Heavy Armour-Can take heavy punishment.

    Votes: 57 16.7%
  • Modular Design-Allowing dynamic adaptions.

    Votes: 198 58.1%
  • Universal Platform-Best for logistics.

    Votes: 61 17.9%

  • Total voters
    341

Sovngard

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And Leopard 1 also do not provide any protection against any significant threat.

Even with MEXAS-M ? :sarcastic:




It is a more modern tank, incomparable with a lightweight, lightly armored vehicle that should not even be called main battle tank.
EE-T1 is designed per obsolete concept, only because it uses some modern components it does not make it modern and comparable with better designs, like even original M1.

It's just a different approach as the AMX-40, an affordable Main Battle Tank for the export market which was smaller, lighter, less armored (obviously) while retaining the firepower, the optics/FCS, the survivability and the mobility of 55+ metric tons MBT.


No, up armoring is not easy and simple, especially in case of lightweight vehicle, up armoring can increase stress on vehicles mechanical components leading to increased wear and tear.

The same applies for heavier MBTs that gained weight through their evolution, for example, cracks appeared on the Stridsvagn 122's turret ring because of its unbalanced armor package distributed unevenly on the front side of its turret.
 

Damian

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Even with MEXAS-M ?
This is obsolete protection. You think why these tanks were withdrawn from service?

It's just a different approach as the AMX-40, an affordable Main Battle Tank for the export market which was smaller, lighter, less armored (obviously) while retaining the firepower, the optics/FCS, the survivability and the mobility of 55+ metric tons MBT.
And who purchased it? Today designing such vehicle for export is waste of money and resources.

The same applies for heavier MBTs that gained weight through their evolution, for example, cracks appeared on the Stridsvagn 122's turret ring because of its unbalanced armor package distributed unevenly on the front side of its turret.
Well, if someone made mistakes during development stage of this vehicle, it is not my problem. ;)
 

methos

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And Leopard 1 also do not provide any protection against any significant threat.
This is depending on variant. The mentioned variants did provide protection against a previously specified threat spectrum. The add-on armour installed on the Leopard 1A1A1 in 1974 for example did according to literature provide protection against RPGs and small HEAT ammunition (i.e. 73 mm HEAT-FS from BMP-1 and 76 mm HEAT from PT-76), which means that the tank was actually better protected (against a specific threat spectrum) than other tanks like the M60A1 or T-62.
The Leopard 1A6 was designed with quite heavy and thick armour, in order to survive hits from other tanks and anti-tank missiles; and like everytime a tank is designed, the armour was designed against a specified threat spectrum. The Leopard 1 was already relegated to secondary roles only, with the Leopard 2 being the main counter for the more advanced tanks.


It is a more modern tank, incomparable with a lightweight, lightly armored vehicle that should not even be called main battle tank.
You now have taken over the role of dozens of completely wrong Indian posters, who wanted to define the role of a tank by it's weight (calling the T-90 a light tank and the Arjun an heavy tank). Tanks are designated according the role they take over in combat.


EE-T1 is designed per obsolete concept, only because it uses some modern components it does not make it modern and comparable with better designs, like even original M1.
Bullshit. The EE-T1 was designed with composite armour according to planned threats and for specific area of operation. It is a simple as that. In the planned operation enivornment (essentially Latin America and the Middle East) there is no reason to design a tank with armour protection against the latest weapon systems, because all tanks there have only very limited penetration power (far below 400 mm at 2,000 m) regardless of caliber and have sub-par fire control systems.
So yes, the EE-T1 was not protected against the newest weapon systems, but the same has/had to be said about nearly all other tanks. The M1 Abrams was designed to resist 115 mm APFSDS and 127 mm HEAT warheads, despite there being more potent weapon systems on the battlefield already. The M1A2 entered service with similar armour protection like it's predecessor, despite the NATO expecting the Russians to field a new tank with much greater armour penetration in the future (and the NATO having a 140 mm gun themselves).

What you do is like saying the following: The Marder 1A1 IFV is much better than the M2 Bradley, because it has much better armour protection (i.e. against 20/25 mm APDS instead of 14.5 mm AP) - the higher level of protection is true. But at the same time, both vehicles were made to fight against the Soviet Union, which only had 14.5 mm AP ammunition (and no 20 mm or 25 mm guns).


No, up armoring is not easy and simple, especially in case of lightweight vehicle, up armoring can increase stress on vehicles mechanical components leading to increased wear and tear.
No, it can be so easy. Just look at the Leopard 1. There were no problems with it after a 2.4 tonnes weight increase and even a further 3 to 5 tonnes could be handled without any mention of performance problems. The MEXAS-armoured Canadian Leopard 1 tanks did perform very well despite the weight growth according to a Canadian military magazine.


Operation Iraqi Freedom lessons learned, where there was at least single incident where hydraulic oil reservoir was hit by shaped charge jet, oil did not catch fire, crew was not harmed by it. Tank that was hit is a 3-69 AR A23, hit in to left side of hull. Hydraulic reservoir had a large exit hole in it done by shaped charge jet. Hydraulic oil did not ignited, no reports about harm done to crew.
You are making a jugdement based on a single occasion. That's like saying "the armour of the M60A1 is good enough for modern battles, not a single one was destoryed during ODS".


Even with MEXAS-M ? :sarcastic:
The same applies for heavier MBTs that gained weight through their evolution, for example, cracks appeared on the Stridsvagn 122's turret ring because of its unbalanced armor package distributed unevenly on the front side of its turret.
I think you mean the Greek tanks, I have never read anything about troubles with the Strv 122.


This is obsolete protection. You think why these tanks were withdrawn from service?
The Leopard C2 hasn't been completely withdrawn from service, it was planned to retain some until 2015.


And who purchased it? Today designing such vehicle for export is waste of money and resources.
Today. But not in 1987. The EE-T1 and AMX-40 were designed for countries like Brazil and Saudi-Arabia, where the armour protection was enough to resist all expected enemy threats, the fire control system was revolutionary (compared to that of Chieftain and T-72) and the mobility was unmatched.
 
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Damian

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This is depending on variant. The mentioned variants did provide protection against a previously specified threat spectrum. The add-on armour installed on the Leopard 1A1A1 in 1974 for example did according to literature provide protection against RPGs and small HEAT ammunition (i.e. 73 mm HEAT-FS from BMP-1 and 76 mm HEAT from PT-76), which means that the tank was actually better protected (against a specific threat spectrum) than other tanks like the M60A1 or T-62.
The Leopard 1A6 was designed with quite heavy and thick armour, in order to survive hits from other tanks and anti-tank missiles; and like everytime a tank is designed, the armour was designed against a specified threat spectrum. The Leopard 1 was already relegated to secondary roles only, with the Leopard 2 being the main counter for the more advanced tanks.
Only turret of some Leopard 1's was designed that way, and do not forget about KE threats. In fact, Leopard 1 and AMX-30 were mistake in calculation.

You now have taken over the role of dozens of completely wrong Indian posters, who wanted to define the role of a tank by it's weight (calling the T-90 a light tank and the Arjun an heavy tank). Tanks are designated according the role they take over in combat.
No, I did not. Both T-90 and Arjun are Main Battle Tanks, a class that was designed to replace both medium and heavy tanks, which means that Main Battle Tank have superior mobility over heavy tanks and superior or comparable to medium, superior firepower over heavy and medium tanks, and superior protection over both.

EE-T1 lacks superior protection.

Bullshit.
Do not fight with me, seriously.

The EE-T1 was designed with composite armour according to planned threats and for specific area of operation. It is a simple as that. In the planned operation enivornment (essentially Latin America and the Middle East) there is no reason to design a tank with armour protection against the latest weapon systems, because all tanks there have only very limited penetration power (far below 400 mm at 2,000 m) regardless of caliber and have sub-par fire control systems.
So let's put it straight, EE-T1 was designed for Latin America, it have no chances to be sold anywhere else and to compete with better tanks.

So yes, the EE-T1 was not protected against the newest weapon systems, but the same has/had to be said about nearly all other tanks. The M1 Abrams was designed to resist 115 mm APFSDS and 127 mm HEAT warheads, despite there being more potent weapon systems on the battlefield already. The M1A2 entered service with similar armour protection like it's predecessor, despite the NATO expecting the Russians to field a new tank with much greater armour penetration in the future (and the NATO having a 140 mm gun themselves).
We do not know against what threats was designed protection of the M1. What is in some sources, can be very well disinformation, even after 33 years, first variants of Burlington armor are still classified. And declassified informations talks only about experimental variants before induction in to service, this is 1960's and early to mid 1970's. The same funny thing is what you talk about M1A2. May I ask, where you did gained this incredible, knowledge about it's protection, even if it is highly classified?

And M1A2 was not designed to fight against Future Soviet Tank with 152mm gun, there were separate tank projects designed with such threat in mind like Armored System Modernization program.

What you do is like saying the following: The Marder 1A1 IFV is much better than the M2 Bradley, because it has much better armour protection (i.e. against 20/25 mm APDS instead of 14.5 mm AP) - the higher level of protection is true. But at the same time, both vehicles were made to fight against the Soviet Union, which only had 14.5 mm AP ammunition (and no 20 mm or 25 mm guns).
Marder in comparision with M2 is less perspective, obsolete design, and even then, M2 is slowly coming to an end of it's service as IFV.

No, it can be so easy. Just look at the Leopard 1. There were no problems with it after a 2.4 tonnes weight increase and even a further 3 to 5 tonnes could be handled without any mention of performance problems. The MEXAS-armoured Canadian Leopard 1 tanks did perform very well despite the weight growth according to a Canadian military magazine.
Maybe talk to some engineers first, I wonder what will be their reaction on your "very easy"...

You are making a jugdement based on a single occasion. That's like saying "the armour of the M60A1 is good enough for modern battles, not a single one was destoryed during ODS".
And did you heard or read about any other incidents where hydraulics oil killed or made harm to the crew in M1? I never seen such.

I think you mean the Greek tanks, I have never read anything about troubles with the Strv 122.
Strv 122's had problems with cracking turrets.

The Leopard C2 hasn't been completely withdrawn from service, it was planned to retain some until 2015.
This is like with our T-72M1's, they are useless, but kept for some time in storage and some units.

Today. But not in 1987. The EE-T1 and AMX-40 were designed for countries like Brazil and Saudi-Arabia, where the armour protection was enough to resist all expected enemy threats, the fire control system was revolutionary (compared to that of Chieftain and T-72) and the mobility was unmatched.
And both designes died without any export sucess, wonder why?
 

Damian

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And something new, eSim, developer of the Steel Beasts Pro and Pro PE modern armored vehicles simulator for military and civilian use, released their newest version of this sim, the 3.0.

Amon many new vehicles (some of them fully modeled and playable) there are M1A2SEP and T-62, here are two videos showing fire control system of M1A2SEP and a T-62 which... does not have any FCS and worst, it is initial model when gunner sight was slaved to the gun which means that during gun reloading... well, watch yourself.

 
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Damian

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I think that Damian will have a seizure :D

M1 Abrams Tank Debacle - YouTube

A lot of slanders, as we can see...
Why should I? This is creation of Mike "Sparky" Sparks (under his one of many alter ego's "Blacktail"), mentally ill person that masturbates watching photos of M113. He even believe that cast homogeneus steel armor of the M60 tank is better than composite of the M1.

Why should have a seizure because of opinion of a men that have IQ lower than a cockroach and is mentally ill?

Can you believe that this man tried to force US Army so they would give M113 name after general Gavin? :D He even wrote to ARMOR Magazine, untill redaction was to tired of his nonsence that they stopped to publish his letters. :D

So he later start his crusade in the internet, first attacking Stryker, then M2, then M1, only because these vehicles are modern and have future, not like his beloved obsolete M113.
 
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Sovngard

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Why should I? This is creation of Mike "Sparky" Sparks (under his one of many alter ego's "Blacktail"), mentally ill person that masturbates watching photos of M113. He even believe that cast homogeneus steel armor of the M60 tank is better than composite of the M1.

Why should have a seizure because of opinion of a men that have IQ lower than a cockroach and is mentally ill?

Can you believe that this man tried to force US Army so they would give M113 name after general Gavin? :D He even wrote to ARMOR Magazine, untill redaction was to tired of his nonsence that they stopped to publish his letters. :D

So he later start his crusade in the internet, first attacking Stryker, then M2, then M1, only because these vehicles are modern and have future, not like his beloved obsolete M113.

Oh thanks for the little story ! :shocked:

So there is no need to try to reason with him, anyway he blocked me on YT...
 

Damian

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Oh thanks for the little story !
This is very well known story in tank enthusiasts community, at least in the west. He even have his 5 minutes at TankNet, untill he somehow disappeard, I believe he was banned.

So there is no need to try to reason with him, anyway he blocked me on YT...
You can try to reason with him, but remember it is hazardous for your health.

I would say it is more safer to just shoot him... and killing him would be benefiting for humanity.
 

The Last Stand

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So he later start his crusade in the internet, first attacking Stryker, then M2, then M1, only because these vehicles are modern and have future, not like his beloved obsolete M113.
:)

Remember that he claims that M113 can still function in a modern environment and talks as if it is perfectly suited for modern combat.

The amount of hypocrisy "Blacktail Defence" shows is staggering. Not to mention the fact that he provides exactly 0 sources for his claims.
 

The Last Stand

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This is very well known story in tank enthusiasts community, at least in the west. He even have his 5 minutes at TankNet, untill he somehow disappeard, I believe he was banned.
:shocked:

He actually got a TankNet account?

Damian said:
You can try to reason with him, but remember it is hazardous for your health.

I would say it is more safer to just shoot him... and killing him would be benefiting for humanity.
Such cruelty. :rolleyes:

Is he that bad?
 

Damian

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Remember that he claims that M113 can still function in a modern environment and talks as if it is perfectly suited for modern combat.

The amount of hypocrisy "Blacktail Defence" shows is staggering. Not to mention the fact that he provides exactly 0 sources for his claims.
What do expect from moron?

He actually got a TankNet account?
Long time ago, I wasn't even registered there.

Such cruelty.

Is he that bad?
It would be an act of mercy, for him, us and whole humanity.
 

Sovngard

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Now back on topic with another question : does the Abrams has self-sealing fuel tanks ?
 

Andrei_bt

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And something new, eSim, developer of the Steel Beasts Pro and Pro PE modern armored vehicles simulator for military and civilian use, released their newest version of this sim, the 3.0.

Amon many new vehicles (some of them fully modeled and playable) there are M1A2SEP and T-62, here are two videos showing fire control system of M1A2SEP and a T-62 which... does not have any FCS and worst, it is initial model when gunner sight was slaved to the gun which means that during gun reloading... well, watch yourself.



What other Soviet tanks this game includes?
The protction schemes I seen seems more then insane.
 
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cobra commando

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New Arena-3 APS Debut At RAE-2013


Arena-3 covers 360 degrees in four quadrants with four modules, each comprising two sensor modules (possibly bi-static transmit and receive modules) photo: Noam Eshel, Defense-Update

A new active protection system from Russia appeared today at RAE-2013, as part of the display of a series of upgrades offered to The T-72 main battle tanks. The new system, dubbed Arena-3 covers 360 degrees in four quadrants with four modules, which seems to comprise two sensors two effectors. According to the manufacturer, two targets can be intercepted at each direction, at 0.3 second intervals. The system is effective at elevation of +20 degrees and -6 degrees. It is designed to intercept projectiles and missiles at a distance of 50 meters from the protected tank. The previous configuration included multiple effectors and a high profile radar that has not received well among tank crews. According to the tank manufacturer Uralvagonzavod, the system is effective at target velocity of 70-1000 meter/second (pertaining to RPGs, anti-tank missiles and HEAT tank rounds). The upgraded T-72 with Arena-3 weighs 46.5 tons.


According to the manufacturer, two targets can be intercepted at each direction, at 0.3 second intervals. The system is effective at elevation of +20 degrees and -6 degrees. Photo: Noam Eshel, Defense-Update

New Arena-3 APS Debut At RAE-2013 - Defense Update - Military Technology & Defense News
 

Damian

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What other Soviet tanks this game includes?
The protction schemes I seen seems more then insane.
This is not a game, but a simulation program really, used also by several armies.

Other Soviet tanks are: T-55, T-62, T-72M, T-72M1, T-72B (without and with ERA), T-72M4Cz (not a Soviet tank really), T-64A, T-64B, T-80U and a Russian T-90S. From these, playable are only T-62, T-72M and T-72M1, other vehicles do not have modelled FCS and interiors yet.

As for protection levels, I agree that some tanks like Challenger 2 and Leopardo 2E/Strv122 are overestimated.
 

Sovngard

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As for protection levels, I agree that some tanks like Challenger 2 and Leopardo 2E/Strv122 are overestimated.

:cereal: I wonder if eSim has always used the calculations of Paul Lakowski to establish these protection levels.
 

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