Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

[Dazzler]

First versions were not capable to move in both directions, later versions fitted to more modern tanks were capable to do so.

Thanks man,

the reason why i asked is this...


Solid State Autoloader

Modern warfare demands installation of robust control systems in main battle tank to enhance firepower and maneuverability. CARE has developed Solid State Autoloader for Pakistan Army main battle tank MBT Al-Khalid, replacing the Chinese Autoloader. The auto-loading mechanism consists of two subsections, the Motorized Mechanical Subsystem consisting of carousel magazine, hoister mechanism, ejection frame and window assemblies etc. Driven by several high power motors and solenoids along with mechanical proximity switches. The other part is the electric control subsystem, responsible for coordinated control of various operations carried out by the mechanical subsystem.

The solid state Autoloader developed by CARE has eliminated the need for relay and utilizes the latest solid-state electronic devices to provide the control functionalities hence leading to most reliable system.

Completely solid-state design with NO RELAYS

Design based on programmable logic, processor and FPGAs

100% compatible with Tank's existing mechanical design / mounting as well as the wiring harness and connectors

Bi-directional carousal motion leading to substantial reduction in the maximum loading time for the farthest ammo

Simultaneous display of the number of each ammo type (i.e. HE/HA/AP) present in carousel magazine along with the number of empty trays


Solid State Autoloader

 

[W.G.Ewald]

Any source for data of time delay between rounds with T-72 autoloader? Found this but also saw a video about battle of 73 Easting which stated 10 seconds (6 rounds per minute), same as M1 Abrams with manual loading.

The T-72's autoloader design is not based on the faster, but more complicated autoloader in the USSR's domestic-use-only T-64 tank series (the T-72's is horizontally auto-fed, the T-64's uses vertical actuators). The autoloader must crank the gun up three degrees above the horizontal in order to depress the breech end of the gun and line it up with the new shell. While autoloading, the gunner can still aim because he has a vertically independent sight. With a laser rangefinder and a ballistic computer, final aiming takes at least another three to five seconds, but aiming is pipelined into the last steps of auto-loading so it proceeds concurrently. The average rate of fire for this type of carousel automatic loader is quoted to be 8 rounds per minute. The use of the autoloader allows the elimination of the extra loader crewmember, decreasing the size of the tank.

T-72 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Damian]

Armor scheme of Japanese Type 10.

As we can see, relatively thick composite armor is placed only on turret front and hull front. Sides do not have any significant protection, there is relatively thin side armor covered with storage boxes.

This tank is not well suited for conventional warfare in terms of protection, but it is definetely not suited well for assymetric warfare either.

Of course probably these storage boxes can be replaced by armor modules, but such configuration is nowhere seen.

I think it is reasonable to ask, what is justification to design such complex, overloaded with electronics tank design, whch have relatively poor protection and is so expensive?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Its a Japanese design, design according to there own needs now we dont know what kind of net centric electronics they have but i presume must be very advance..

The red and yellow modules seem like Armour modules..

They are expensive coz they are in so little in number same case as we have with Arjun MK2..

I think it is reasonable to ask, what is justification to design such complex, overloaded with electronics tank design, whch have relatively poor protection and is so expensive?

 

[methos]

Armor scheme of Japanese Type 10.

As we can see, relatively thick composite armor is placed only on turret front and hull front. Sides do not have any significant protection, there is relatively thin side armor covered with storage boxes.

This tank is not well suited for conventional warfare in terms of protection, but it is definetely not suited well for assymetric warfare either.

It was designed to be light, weighing only 43.3 tonnes in the basic configuration (with storage boxes) which is just a ton heavier than the late Leopard 1. With the storage boxes it is claimed to resist the basic RPG-7 warhead at most angles (at least according to some Japenese websites), but it can be fitted with applique armour instead, which boost the weight to 48 tonnes.

 

[Damian]

Its a Japanese design, design according to there own needs now we dont know what kind of net centric electronics they have but i presume must be very advance..

It was designed per requirement to fit role in assymetric warfare, however as far as today situation shows, vehicle is not fitted for such warfare. As for electronics, sometimes over advanced and over expensive electronics are disadvantage not advantage.

The red and yellow modules seem like Armour modules..

Red is armor, yellow is some sort of thin sheet metal and storage boxes.

They are expensive coz they are in so little in number same case as we have with Arjun MK2..

They are expensive and this is a reason why not many of them is manufactured and production is slow.

It was designed to be light, weighing only 43.3 tonnes in the basic configuration (with storage boxes) which is just a ton heavier than the late Leopard 1.

I wonder if such desire to cut weight justify sacrifices in basic protection of vehicle.

With the storage boxes it is claimed to resist the basic RPG-7 warhead at most angles (at least according to some Japenese websites), but it can be fitted with applique armour instead, which boost the weight to 48 tonnes.

Maybe these storage boxes can act as primitive spaced armor against smaller and simpler RPG's, but even more modern RPG's are more and more avaiable for insurgents.

As for addon armor, we will see hopefully how this addon armor looks, if it is designed and manufactured allready.

 

[Dinesh_Kumar]

Ah.........youre the guy who is the armour expert..........Dazzler from Pak Def Forum, right?

can anyone enlighten me about Isralei composite armour technology like how good it is compared to Burlington and Leo 2's composite armour?

I have heard some interesting bits about it

 

[Dinesh_Kumar]

I understand only one type of RPG can do this damage..........the RPG-29 from Russia....same one took out 2 Challengers' in Iraq and (reportedly) an M1A1..
u must be so proud sir.....I think IA needs to order some.........even DRDO to understand how the damn thing works

The photos in question:

Just after one HEAT round from rpg or missile.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Your view based on what happening with western Armour in middle eastern wars, When talking Japan this change totally opposite even if we talking about Asia ..

I disagree, there electronics based as per there needs, Japan was and is always focus on net-centric capabilities also elector optical countermeasure systems..

It was designed per requirement to fit role in assymetric warfare, however as far as today situation shows, vehicle is not fitted for such warfare. As for electronics, sometimes over advanced and over expensive electronics are disadvantage not advantage.

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By looks it seems so, but they can be also cavity for nera modules, similar design are used over Leo A5/6/7 front Armour..

Red is armor, yellow is some sort of thin sheet metal and storage boxes.

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Nope, they are in lesser ordered as per there defensive needs, lower number higher price, this was discuss with Japanese member at MP.net if you remember..

They are expensive and this is a reason why not many of them is manufactured and production is slow.

 

[Damian]

I understand only one type of RPG can do this damage..........the RPG-29 from Russia....same one took out 2 Challengers' in Iraq and (reportedly) an M1A1..

No you are wrong, this type of damage is not connected to the weapon type, but how armor of Merkava Mk4 armor is designed.

And now, only one Challenger 2 was disabled by RPG-29, only because RPG-29 hit it in a weaker protected zone in a lower front hull plate, while no M1A1 or M1A2 was disabled by RPG-29 hit at it's front armor, only at hull sides and turret sides.

Your view based on what happening with western Armour in middle eastern wars, When talking Japan this change totally opposite even if we talking about Asia ..

There are some basic and universal principles, which can't be ignored only because of geographics.

I disagree, there electronics based as per there needs, Japan was and is always focus on net-centric capabilities also elector optical countermeasure systems..

Computers are stupid, if you realy to much on computer, you make serious mistake.

By looks it seems so, but they can be also cavity for nera modules, similar design are used over Leo A5/6/7 front Armour..

No, they are not, you are making too much assumptions.

Nope, they are in lesser ordered as per there defensive needs, lower number higher price, this was discuss with Japanese member at MP.net if you remember..

So why they won't order more? Do you aks yourself such questions and try to use logic for answering such questions?

Then I will help you, because vehicle allready is overexpensive, so they are trying to save some money by cutting orders. Type 10 is intended to replace Type 74 tank, JSDF have around 300-400 Type 74 tanks, while orders for Type 10 are low and production is slow.

Japan is know for problems in manufacturing tanks in larger quantities in it's history.

Which does not mean that Type 10 is worthless design, it have some good design solutions, like transmission and suspension.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Yes, and practiced when needed, One would not use Urban fighting module over a open terrain..

There are some basic and universal principles, which can't be ignored only because of geographics.

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There is nothing without electronics, specially in a net centric enviorment ..

Computers are stupid, if you realy to much on computer, you make serious mistake.

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Possible, will see more in times ahead..

No, they are not, you are making too much assumptions.

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JSDF is a defensive force design for only mainland defense under US protection..

Imperial Japan cannot be counted, You cannot compare there way of approach with today's Japanese defense industry..

So why they won't order more? Do you aks yourself such questions and try to use logic for answering such questions?

 

[Damian]

Yes, and practiced when needed, One would not use Urban fighting module over a open terrain..

You would be surprised. In British Army it is standard practice to fit tanks with addon armor kits no matters if this is open terrain or urban terrain. I also seen similiar practice in case of US Army, where some tanks are fitted with TUSK kits even if they are used in open terrain in USA on proving grounds.

There is nothing without electronics, specially in a net centric enviorment ..

I didn't say electronics should not be used, I said that overreliance on electronics is a mistake.

JSDF is a defensive force design for only mainland defense under US protection..

Imperial Japan cannot be counted, You cannot compare there way of approach with today's Japanese defense industry..

Japan had the same problems with designing tanks within schedules and manufacture them also after WWII. Type 74 which is fairy simple tank also was not fielded and manufactured per original schedules, same goes for Type 90 etc.

 

[Dejawolf]

No you are wrong, this type of damage is not connected to the weapon type, but how armor of Merkava Mk4 armor is designed.

And now, only one Challenger 2 was disabled by RPG-29, only because RPG-29 hit it in a weaker protected zone in a lower front hull plate, while no M1A1 or M1A2 was disabled by RPG-29 hit at it's front armor, only at hull sides and turret sides.



There are some basic and universal principles, which can't be ignored only because of geographics.



Computers are stupid, if you realy to much on computer, you make serious mistake.



No, they are not, you are making too much assumptions.



So why they won't order more? Do you aks yourself such questions and try to use logic for answering such questions?

Then I will help you, because vehicle allready is overexpensive, so they are trying to save some money by cutting orders. Type 10 is intended to replace Type 74 tank, JSDF have around 300-400 Type 74 tanks, while orders for Type 10 are low and production is slow.

Japan is know for problems in manufacturing tanks in larger quantities in it's history.

Which does not mean that Type 10 is worthless design, it have some good design solutions, like transmission and suspension.

japanese are apparently using "nano crystal steel" what this stuff actually is, is anyones guess,
i've read "steel with an extremely hard surface coating".
so maybe just a fancy name for surface hardened steel.

 

[Dejawolf]

some more information about advanced armour that i dug up:

http://www.teamdst.com/pdf/LWI_JunJul11_p13-18.pdf

 

[Kunal Biswas]

As i said before, you should not mix up other`s tactics and doctrine with others who`s nature and demand are not necessarily had to be the same..

Regarding British and US does with there tank is according to there needs, same cannot be applied to others just because they are doing the same..

Damian, electronics according to there needs, Study about net-centric warfare specially on Japanese self defense forces, you will understand why so emphasis on huge electronic package..

You would be surprised. In British Army it is standard practice to fit tanks with addon armor kits no matters if this is open terrain or urban terrain. I also seen similiar practice in case of US Army, where some tanks are fitted with TUSK kits even if they are used in open terrain in USA on proving grounds.

I didn't say electronics should not be used, I said that overreliance on electronics is a mistake.

Japan had the same problems with designing tanks within schedules and manufacture them also after WWII. Type 74 which is fairy simple tank also was not fielded and manufactured per original schedules, same goes for Type 90 etc.

 

[Damian]

As i said before, you should not mix up other`s tactics and doctrine with others who`s nature and demand are not necessarily had to be the same..

Some principles like vehicle protection are universal, you can't ignore such principles and later say, but hey, I have a different needs, when your vehicle is not adequately protected.

Regarding British and US does with there tank is according to there needs, same cannot be applied to others just because they are doing the same..

UK and US have real experiences on real battlefields, and look, many other countries are doing the same, Ukrainians, Germans and users of their tanks, for example Turkey and Singapur, they also have or plan to have at least some tanks with such addon armor kits installed. And reason is simple, it is a nececity of current and future battlefields.

Damian, electronics according to there needs, Study about net-centric warfare specially on Japanese self defense forces, you will understand why so emphasis on huge electronic package..

Overrealiance on computers is a mistake, believe me.

 

[The Last Stand]

Overrealiance on computers is a mistake, believe me.

If we ourselves aren't perfect, how will our creations achieve such levels?

Translation tools emphasize my point.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Some times it is not feasible to do what other do due to there nature and geography or other reasons..

Addon kits are very flexible and that is the point, You don't need to use it when you don't need it, And if does it can be mounted on Field workshops..

UK and US have real experiences on real battlefields, and look, many other countries are doing the same, Ukrainians, Germans and users of their tanks, for example Turkey and Singapur, they also have or plan to have at least some tanks with such addon armor kits installed. And reason is simple, it is a nececity of current and future battlefields.

Overrealiance on computers is a mistake, believe me.

 

[The Last Stand]

@Damian @Dejawolf @Kunal Biswas @Dazzler @farhan_9909

Vehicle Armour
Carastop Boron Carbide
Aircraft armour

According to these links, India uses Boron Carbide as Vehicle armour (MRAP and others) and armour on Helicopters and planes, navy vessels and body armour. But not on tanks. Supposedly, bullet-proof vests with Boron Carbide have been ordered.

Thought you might be interested.

Kunal Biswas sir, this might be of interest for the IA thread.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

@Keshav Murali, Read the Arjun thread your will find Kanchan Armour use Boron carbide ceramic and titanium composite alloy and other material, this was published in Annual DRDO report, First posted by @Abhi9 in DFI..

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Boron carbide ceramic & use of Titanium alloy are few things we know from open source, rest is still opsec as per Gov..