Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

If Tanks have to evolve, which path they should follow?

  • Light Vehicles-Best for mobility

    Votes: 25 7.3%
  • Heavy Armour-Can take heavy punishment.

    Votes: 57 16.7%
  • Modular Design-Allowing dynamic adaptions.

    Votes: 198 58.1%
  • Universal Platform-Best for logistics.

    Votes: 61 17.9%

  • Total voters
    341

farhan_9909

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after extensive search for hours

i got the source after all

Ukraine is a key partner in the production of the Al-Khalid tank which is a joint venture between China, Pakistan and Ukraine. Ukraine is also providing assistance to Pakistan in the Upgrade/Re-Build its T-59 tanks to the Al-Zarar Configuration, which is intended to match the T-80UD tanks. In February 2002 Ukraine announced that the Malyshev plant would provide another 315 engines for Al-Khalid tanks over three years. The contract's estimated value was $125-150 million.
Al Khalid MBT-2000 / Type 2000 Main Battle Tank
 

Damian

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i got the source after all



Al Khalid MBT-2000 / Type 2000 Main Battle Tank
Garbage... you believe too much in BS. Start to use your brain. If you are truth patriot, you will start to criticize your own country and own nation.

You know why? Why USA, Russia, Germany, France or other countries can be great, rich, powerfull? Because citizens, these that create a nation and state, are allowed to see weaknesses and act to fix them.

However to be honest, you as a Pakistani and Muslim, will never understand this, because of idiotic religion and mentality forced on people, you are not capable to see beyond dogmats, you are not teached how to think critically, and how to use logic, only to listen stupid old fools, especially clerics, how superior you are to others.
 

farhan_9909

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Garbage... you believe too much in BS. Start to use your brain. If you are truth patriot, you will start to criticize your own country and own nation.

You know why? Why USA, Russia, Germany, France or other countries can be great, rich, powerfull? Because citizens, these that create a nation and state, are allowed to see weaknesses and act to fix them.

However to be honest, you as a Pakistani and Muslim, will never understand this, because of idiotic religion and mentality forced on people, you are not capable to see beyond dogmats, you are not teached how to think critically, and how to use logic, only to listen stupid old fools, especially clerics, how superior you are to others.
Now what has religion got to do with this discussion?or me being pakistani has to do with this?
Ok if you hate muslims/Islam and pakistanis.than atleast keep it off from discussion

well discussio is all about agreeing and disagreeing..everyone is entitled to his own opinions.

Even in my previous post i admitted that Al zarrar is inferior to t-90 and arjun of indian inventory..and can be fairly good against the 2nf generation tanks of india.

well but incase of Electronics.Al zarrar is indeed comparable to t-80ud..such as both share a ukrainian FCS,AZ has a similar gun with almost equivalent firepower,has a much better Catherine FC thermal imagers,has superior ballistic computers hence slight edge over t-80ud in electronics.

And i dont listen to clerics or mullahs.because i myself dont like them..if your judging my post toward the indians..than i do so because they do so with me.i troll them and call them a inferior race to the rest of humans only because of there history of slavery and being ruled by minority always when the minority is less than 1% of the total population sometime.but i do so with them because they abuse my country as well.
over all i dont hate any country.


So please if you hate us muslims or pakistanis..please keep it off from the tanks discussion atleast
 

farhan_9909

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Perhaps the above image is in line with the topic?
do you know the complete situation behind this incident?

how many hit it has taken?including from RPG

beside this the pic is old.and after this many other changes would had been made.

As i said earlier if we exclude t-90 and arjun(used now only for training purpose) rest of all are worth the match for indian inventory
but at certain level such as electronics and firepower.since it can fire naiza DU round as well.it will be a tough job for even your arjun and may be t-90 as well.

though i dont think arjun will ever be used against pak because of its nature of being a tank of problems
 

Andrei_bt

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Al zarrar is indeed comparable to t-80ud..such as both share a ukrainian FCS
Al Zarrar does not have Ukrainian electronics and it \is no way comparable to T-80UD.
No Noz or Duplet technology transferred or deployed in Pakistan for now.
Pakistan now has serious financial shortages, they can not allow modern upgrades... It is not good. Hope it will change, as tanks like Al-Khalid and AL-Zarrar are still deathtraps for their crews (as well as T-72, T-90 and Arjune).
But still, as it is known AL-Khalid production is going on .... (enoher batch of 6TD type engines aquired).

on the photo - Mykhailo Borysiuk, General Designer of Armoured Vehicles and Artillery Systems and Head of SOE KMDB, (now retired), testing personally A-K tank
 
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farhan_9909

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interesting got this from tank.net

Pakistani T-80UD v.s Indian T-90S - Page 4 - AFV Forum - Tanknet

AL-KHALID MBT UPGRADING PLAN

A source from the Heavy Industries Taxila (HIT) told KDR that the production of AL-Khalid MBT has been going on very smoothly. Apart from Pakistan, there are a number of other countries also interested in this MBT, including Saudi Arabia, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Iraq and Indonesia. Other sources from the Pakistani Army disclosed to KDR that the Pakistani Army ordered an initial batch of 300 Al-Khalid MBTs, and a total of 200 have already been produced.

There is a plan to further enlarge the production line to the scale of manufacturing 100 Al-Khalid every year. The Saudi Arabian delegations paid field visit twice to HIT and tested Al-Khalid. Saudi Arabia plans to have an Al-Khalid delivered in 2007 for further testing. A source from the Pakistani Army confirmed that China has participated in the promotion of Al-Khalid MBT to Saudi Arabia.

A source from French THALES told KDR that Pakistan has signed the contract of importing 900 sets of Catherine-FC thermal imaging systems to be fitted on the Al-Khalid MBTs of the Pakistani Army. Delivery of these thermal imaging systems is expected to start in March 2007. As an integrated plan, the same type of thermal imaging systems will also be used to upgrade the T85IIAP MBTs currently in service. A source from HIT told KDR that the reason they did not choose the Chinese-made thermal imaging systems was that they did not meet the demands of the Pakistani Army. Kanwa has learned that even the latest upgraded 99G MBTs use mechanical scanning thermal imaging system. Catherine-FC thermal imaging system works at 8-12μm band, weight smaller than 5.5kg, image resolution 754X576, wide field of view (WFOV) 9ºX6.7º, and narrow field of view (NFOV) 3ºX2.2º. Catherine-FC has a detection range of 10,000m for tanks, recognition range 4,500m, and identification range 2,300m.

In order to promote Al-Khalid MBTs to Saudi Arabia, Pakistan has also used Matis thermal imaging system produced by French SAGEM for testing purpose, mainly because the armored forces of the Saudi Arabian Army are currently using Sagem's thermal imaging systems. The third generation Matis thermal imaging system works at 3-5μm band, weight smaller than 4.5kg, WFOV 12ºX8º, NFOV 2.5ºX1.7º, detection range for tanks 11,000m, recognition range 5,300m. The identification range of the system is not yet revealed.

The Chinese tank experts told KDR that Pakistan has made rapid progress in tank design. The Chinese side is also very impressed by the new Integrated Battlefield Management System (IBMS) fitted on Al-Khalid. This IBMS is designed and produced by the Pakistani Integrated Defense Systems, and the system is already installed on some Al-Khalid command MBTs in effective service. With this IBMS, the battlefield situations between the two sides of confrontation can be transmitted through the video camera and unmanned aerial vehicle. This transmission system is capable of processing data and transmitting command orders as well as displaying different 3D topographical images and maps. The designer of the system stressed that they have also planned to connect the IBMS with satellite in the future.

An upgrading plan for Al-Khalid MBT is in the making. The first step will be replacing the engine system. Experts from HIT say that they are right now considering using the German-made 1,500hp engines to replace the Ukraine-made 6TD2 engines. (As good as the German engines may be, one has to consider the wisdom of using a more expensive, more sanction prone engine for our front line tank, but then we're considering U-214 as well!) For this purpose, Al-Khalid's engine compartment has reserved a 1m space for the installation of greater power engine. Meanwhile, Pakistan has decided to outfit active protection system on Al-Khalid, similar to the Russian Shtora system. Pakistan has obtained at least one such system respectively from Ukraine and China for testing purpose. The Ukrainian version Shtora has already been tested on one Al-Khalid MBT. This system is composed of the laser detection and IR detection subsystems. In addition, Pakistan has also designed independently a laser detection system for Al-Halid for exercises and training. This system can perform laser beam detection and is composed of 8 units of laser detectors which are fitted on the two sides of Al-Khalid turret and on the front as well, providing a 180 deg forward-coverage.

Pakistan does not have a plan to fit gun launched ATMs on Al-Khalid MBT at the moment. The source also said that the plan of installing new engines and gun launched ATMs will be determined by the demands of respective clients, and Pakistan has the capability to undertake such upgrading for the clients.

Other sources from the Pakistani Army say that the plan of installing gun launched ATMs on the tanks of the Pakistani Army will be first tested on T80UD. Nonetheless, the Pakistani Army has much greater expectation for Al-Khalid MBTs than for T80UD. General Ehsan-ul-Haq, Chairman of Joint Staff of the Pakistani Military, says that Al-Khalid's performance is much better than T80UD.

As it was mentioned above, the upgrading plan of T85IIAP is related to the installation of Catherine-FC thermal imaging system produced by Thales Company on Al-Halid MBTs. A source from the Pakistani Army stresses that in addition to outfitting thermal imaging system on T85IIAP, there are no other major upgrading plans. Pakistan once considered using the T serial tank upgraded thermal imaging system produced by the British Maconi Company. Since 2001, Pakistan has conducted winter and summer tests of the above two systems and Maconi eventually lost to Thales.

The upgrading of Al-Zarrar MBT has been going on very smoothly. A source from the Pakistani Army says that up to the present, they have finished upgrading 300 of them. The Army plans to upgrade a total of 611 T59 tanks so that they can reach the standard of Al-Zarrar. The direction of future upgrading of these T59 tanks will be the same as that for T85IIAP and Al-Khalid MBTs, i.e. to further upgrade the fire control system. For the A1-Zarrar upgrading project, Pakistan has chosen the THETIS thermal imaging system produced by Italian Galileo Avionica Company. A source from Galileo Avionica told KDR that THETIS thermal imaging system originated from ARES gunner sight system, but THETIS did not include the laser range finder. The fire control system of Al-Zarrar is still made by China in order to lower cost, and Pakistan has only selected the Italian thermal imaging system. As a 2nd generation thermal imaging system, THETIS works at 8-12μm band and uses digital signal processing system. Other technical details of this system have not been revealed. The source told KDR that Galileo Avionica has delivered to Pakistan 10 sets of THETIS thermal imaging systems for testing purpose, a total of 200 such systems will be delivered, indicating that not all Al-Zarrar tanks will be fitted with THETIS. The full upgrading plan will start in 2007.
As for the engine system, Al-Zarrar is powered by the 730hp diesel engines. This 730hp engine can give a power to weight ratio of 18.3hp/t and a maximum speed of 55km.

In summary, the basic technologies of the Pakistani tank industry indeed came from China, but in the course of constant upgrading, Pakistan is now enjoying much greater independence. More western fire control systems have been fitted on the Pakistani tanks.
 

farhan_9909

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Al Zarrar does not have Ukrainian electronics and it \is no way comparable to T-80UD.
No Noz or Duplet technology transferred or deployed in Pakistan for now.
Pakistan now has serious financial shortages, they can not allow modern upgrades... It is not good. Hope it will change, as tanks like Al-Khalid and AL-Zarrar are still deathtraps for their crews (as well as T-72, T-90 and Arjune).
But still, as it is known AL-Khalid production is going on .... (enoher batch of 6TD type engines aquired).

on the photo - Mykhailo Borysiuk, General Designer of Armoured Vehicles and Artillery Systems and Head of SOE KMDB, (now retired), testing personally A-K tank
yes indeed.but i thought al zarrar has the fcs of ukraine origin.

Problems are not the shortage of funds..as they still are getting the dedicated defence budget.problem is that majority of the budget is used fighting the taliban's.since the war is about to end within this year..the situation will become better.

as per ministry of defence production report 2009-10.300 basic al khalid were produced.and the production of basic al khalid was ceased in favour of Upgraded Al khalid I which even have now the most latest sagem matis thermal imagers.

from the sri lankan army chief visit to Heavy industry taxila last year.it was confirmed that the upgradation of Al zarrar is also ON.
new MRAPS are being developed.

though i agree the funds shortage are severe at the moment
 

Damian

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Now what has religion got to do with this discussion?or me being pakistani has to do with this?
Ok if you hate muslims/Islam and pakistanis.than atleast keep it off from discussion

well discussio is all about agreeing and disagreeing..everyone is entitled to his own opinions.

Even in my previous post i admitted that Al zarrar is inferior to t-90 and arjun of indian inventory..and can be fairly good against the 2nf generation tanks of india.

well but incase of Electronics.Al zarrar is indeed comparable to t-80ud..such as both share a ukrainian FCS,AZ has a similar gun with almost equivalent firepower,has a much better Catherine FC thermal imagers,has superior ballistic computers hence slight edge over t-80ud in electronics.

And i dont listen to clerics or mullahs.because i myself dont like them..if your judging my post toward the indians..than i do so because they do so with me.i troll them and call them a inferior race to the rest of humans only because of there history of slavery and being ruled by minority always when the minority is less than 1% of the total population sometime.but i do so with them because they abuse my country as well.
over all i dont hate any country.


So please if you hate us muslims or pakistanis..please keep it off from the tanks discussion atleast
It is not about hate, it is about logic, you believe too much to some informations which are not proved by other sources, for example photographs, this is the point, and it is very closely connected to the culture, mentality.

Al Zarrar is nothing more than relatively poor modernization of T-54/55 and it's Chinese clones. A useless modernization of obsolete vehicle, and some people from your country, make it some sort of super tank, which only shows their intelect... or rather lack of any.

Same goes for Al Khalid, you wish (I am certain) that this tank will be on par with T-80UD, not it will not, and it is not a Pakistani tank either, not matters how much you wish it to be, it is a export Chinese tank, with all shortcomings that Chinese tanks have, for example poor protection of hull sides, not solved on any tank of Chinese origin.

Same goes for autoloader that is a knock off from AZ used in T-72 series. Nothing special, and do not have any perspectives.

As a side note, it is good that you shows above avarage IQ, and do not follow most of dogmats, there is a even a chance I can turn you to be atheist. ;)

it is too catholic point of view, this is not good arguments.
There are a lot of sound educated people there.
I am atheist, I am far to like any kind of cult and it's impact on people.

And of course there are educated people, reasonable people, but they are not capable to make any difference with majority that have intelect of insect. Good example is what Keshav Murali says about other forum he participates.

Well one of the definetely biggest problem of 3rd world or developing nations is that they do not learn from the more experienced ones.

Al Khalid is a good example of such. Despite cooperation with Ukraine for example, it seems that Pakistani engineers do not show much attention to the proper ERA cover, even if Al Khalid use thermal sight and there are no devices like Luna IR projector that can disturb proper ERA installation, what we see is actually very poor ERA cover, and with such gaps there is easy way to loss of tank and crew even when vehicle is hit by relatively weak ammunition.

Same comes to the mentioned weak side hull protection, despite a fact that Pakistan is fighting mostly with irregular forces armed with RPG's.

I doubt that there would be some huge problems to adapt Chinese ERA, so it can be attached over side skirts and provide some degree of protection against most common RPG's used in region.
 
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Damian

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It is not eaesy to do as to say.
No, it is not easy, neither immposible.

The biggest problem might be with turret geometry of Al Khalid, as we can see on photos, it is difficult to achieve good ERA coverage.

IMHO it was overall stupid decision made by Pakistani goverment to accept Al Khalid instead of more widespread use of T-80UD or accepting T-84 series in to service.

BM "Oplot" itself would be probably most perfectly meeting all Pakistani requirements both for conventional and assymetric warfare... instead of this Chinese abomination of tank.

Or they could purchase BM "Yatagan" which would give them an edge in terms of vehicle and crew surivability of both Indian and Chinese tanks.
 
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Andrei_bt

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No, it is not easy, neither immposible.

The biggest problem might be with turret geometry of Al Khalid, as we can see on photos, it is difficult to achieve good ERA coverage.

IMHO it was overall stupid decision made by Pakistani goverment to accept Al Khalid instead of more widespread use of T-80UD or accepting T-84 series in to service.

BM "Oplot" itself would be probably most perfectly meeting all Pakistani requirements both for conventional and assymetric warfare... instead of this Chinese abomination of tank.

Or they could purchase BM "Yatagan" which would give them an edge in terms of vehicle and crew surivability of both Indian and Chinese tanks.
Every reasonable person understands, that weapon is not only a question of technical superiority, but mostly a political question.
It concerns as well Pakistan, and other countries, maybe Poland so.
It is some deviation from the point of discussion, as for me.

Chinese abomination of tank.
Why you say so? "Chinese abomination of tank. " ?
 

Damian

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Every reasonable person understands, that weapon is not only a question of technical superiority, but mostly a political question.
It concerns as well Pakistan, and other countries, maybe Poland so.
It is some deviation from the point of discussion, as for me.
Of course it is also a political choice. However I do not see anything that Pakistan gains from choosing a Chinese product. A closer ties with Ukraine would be probably more beneficial as Ukraine is far more willing to share more design solutions, data etc.

Of course we can consider that such deal would not be 100% perfect for Ukraine as it could lock potential market in India, but who knows.

Overall Ukrainian tanks are definetely superior in technical terms than Chinese tanks.

Besides this we should consider the military situation here. Pakistan can be both involved in to conventional and assymetric conflict. Chinese tanks are suited only for conventional one, and it seems that Chinese do not care much about vehicle protection, it's survivability and survivability of crew.

This is also stupid, because it is far more difficult to replace experienced, well trained crew than tank itself, not to mention how expensive is to train such crew and maintain these poeple.

In such case most other tanks manufactured by experienced and big manufacturers is better solution, as these manufacturers offer up-armor kits and other solutions improving survivability.

So overall Pakistan here is not a big winner. They just purchased Type-90-IIM, renamed it Al Khalid and voila, but no gains for the longer perspective.
 
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Damian

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Why you say so? "Chinese abomination of tank. " ?
Lack of any side hull protection, even within 60 degrees frontal arc, which is as you know very important even in conventional warfare, same for turret.

Turrets of all Chinese tanks are relatively poorly designed from protection point of view.

The frontal modular armor have a serious problem with it's attachement method, reducing the overall volume of composite filler.

I am sure that if we would sit on this problem and sacrifice a day or more for serious analisis, we could find more deficiencies in their design.
 

farhan_9909

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It is not about hate, it is about logic, you believe too much to some informations which are not proved by other sources, for example photographs, this is the point, and it is very closely connected to the culture, mentality.
Nope..i am now sure this is all about your hate for muslims and pakistanis.but leave this

And culture and mentality has nothing to do with this.

Al Zarrar is nothing more than relatively poor modernization of T-54/55 and it's Chinese clones. A useless modernization of obsolete vehicle, and some people from your country, make it some sort of super tank, which only shows their intelect... or rather lack of any.
It is not a useless modernization.as i said earlier it has got a 125mm smoothbore,and the electronics upgrade i mentioned before.
the difference between the Older t55 is as much huge as much the difference between t-72 and t-90
Same goes for Al Khalid, you wish (I am certain) that this tank will be on par with T-80UD, not it will not, and it is not a Pakistani tank either, not matters how much you wish it to be, it is a export Chinese tank, with all shortcomings that Chinese tanks have, for example poor protection of hull sides, not solved on any tank of Chinese origin.

Same goes for autoloader that is a knock off from AZ used in T-72 series. Nothing special, and do not have any perspectives.
Al khalid chasis is only based off type 90 IIM.which was china's first 3rd generation mbt..but over a span of 1 decade it was through modified and tested with different engines,fcs,electronics and the best out of them was chosen

Al khalid is our work horse.i dont know why you cant get this into your mind.it will have short comings.i agree but Al khalid has helped us alot in tank industry.today we can even take our own new tank design or upgrade the basic Al khalid on our own.

Al khalid has shaped the tank industry of pakistani into new level.we are close to sign a deal with sri lanka for 22 al khalid export.

It is domesticaly produced and hence must not only be cheaper but offer experience to pakistan tank industry and so does our engineers.
Today our industry is now even into developing a new APS for Al khalid.

Al khalid I is successfully developed and is in mass production


As a side note, it is good that you shows above avarage IQ, and do not follow most of dogmats, there is a even a chance I can turn you to be atheist. ;)
well i dont care about anyone religion or anyone being athiest.
 

farhan_9909

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So overall Pakistan here is not a big winner. They just purchased Type-90-IIM, renamed it Al Khalid and voila, but no gains for the longer perspective.
true but not completely.this is not good comparing Type 90IIM with Al khalid.

Some basics
Superiority of AK over type90IIM

*Superior FCS
*Superior Gun(Basic Ak use gun imported from France as per HIT officials[Blanks were imported from France])
*Use ballistic computer similar to those on the latest chinese type99 series
*Catherine thermal imagers
*May be better armour as well
*thickened side skirts in AK1
*true hunter killer capability
*better engine

these are some bold feature of AK superiority.

i will post a older article about AK prototypes testing.where the official mentioned that it has even exceeded the t-90c in performance.
 

farhan_9909

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No, it is not easy, neither immposible.

The biggest problem might be with turret geometry of Al Khalid, as we can see on photos, it is difficult to achieve good ERA coverage.

IMHO it was overall stupid decision made by Pakistani goverment to accept Al Khalid instead of more widespread use of T-80UD or accepting T-84 series in to service.

BM "Oplot" itself would be probably most perfectly meeting all Pakistani requirements both for conventional and assymetric warfare... instead of this Chinese abomination of tank.

Or they could purchase BM "Yatagan" which would give them an edge in terms of vehicle and crew surivability of both Indian and Chinese tanks.
Oplot and yatagan both are very Good tank.i personal like yatagan the most of all the soviet philosphy light weight tanks.

But Al khalid is the work horse of pakistan.With the passage of time.the machine will get better and better and in long run will make the pak tank industry independent of any foriegn help

A slight inferior product is accepted if the product is manufactured within the country and is to prove much better in long run for the local tank industry
 

farhan_9909

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Do you live in Pakistan?
the army gets the official defence budget of 6.3billions dollars.

but since most of the budget is used fighting the terrorists where close to 2lac troops are now deployed.than yes the heavy industry taxila gets a smaller share

and yes i live in pakistan
 

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