Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

[STGN]

So did I, there are M1A1HA's and M1A2SEP's with similiar weld lines you pointed out.



Manufacturing 900 armor packages is not a problem. Composite armors are semi modular, so armor arrays are manufactured just like spare parts. And you should consider that part of HAP is thicker faceplate.



Because this is standard M1A1, I seen photos of some of them, used by USMC as training tanks several years ago, non of them are used in combat units AFAIK, if this one among many already did not ended in Sierra Army Depot or some other storage area... or was not upgraded.



All tanks with Heavy Armor Package have slightly altered turret shape.

Of course I agree that there is significant problem because of several variants of turrets used on M1 tanks, as well as some modifications for hulls.

I can imagine that there were changes and improvements added with each production batch to the hull and turret structure.

You are right I forgot the faceplate is thicker, but the turret exterior size is the same.
Still we have official document saying the added hardened steel to the front turret.

STGN

 

[Damian]

You are right I forgot the faceplate is thicker, but the turret exterior size is the same.
Still we have official document saying the added hardened steel to the front turret.
STGN

Perhaps it might have something to do with changes to the turret design through production. You know, the first "long" turret used on M1IP is different than the latter "long" turrets, it is possible that design was evolving through production process.

But your observation is interesting, it seems that Americans were continiously increasing armor thicknes. I also heard that front hull received some modifications, however never seen any details.

 

[STGN]

Perhaps it might have something to do with changes to the turret design through production. You know, the first "long" turret used on M1IP is different than the latter "long" turrets, it is possible that design was evolving through production process.

But your observation is interesting, it seems that Americans were continiously increasing armor thicknes. I also heard that front hull received some modifications, however never seen any details.

No that is not what I am saying, the face plate is thicker yes but it goes further into the turret not sticking out. Turret dimension has not changed between IP and A2.
STGN

 

[Damian]

Hmmm, then it was probably one of ways to improve protection against KE. In theory a very hard faceplate should brake penetrator tip, or at least significantly reduce it through increased erosion during penetration, rest is done by layers behind.

 

[Damian]

Modernized USMC M1A1FEP's in amphibious operations training. These tanks are from 2nd Tank Battalion, so modernization is quick, 1st Tank Battalion have it's tanks already upgraded.

 

[Damian]

Leopard 2's (Polish and German) in Poland.

 

[militarysta]

Better

Rosomak AMV is quite big ni reality...

 

[Damian]

Wiceminister ON w Bumarze Łabędy ws. programu pancernego

Odpowiedzialny za zakupy uzbrojenia wiceszef Ministerstwa Obrony Narodowej Waldemar Skrzypczak wyraził w poniedziałek w Gliwicach nadzieję, że jeszcze w tym roku gotowy będzie tzw. demonstrator technologii nowej uniwersalnej platformy pancernej z Bumaru .
Zapewniali go tym przedstawiciele gliwickich Zakładów Mechanicznych Bumar-Łabędy i Ośrodka Badawczo-Rozwojowego Urządzeń Mechanicznych (OBRUM), które należą do Grupy Bumar.

Zgodnie z określonym przez MON wstępnym podziałem realizacji tzw. polskiego programu pancernego, tzw. dywizja Bumar Ląd, w skład której wchodzą m.in. Łabędy i OBRUM, została wyznaczona do kierowania projektem tzw. platformy uniwersalnej ciężkiej.

Ma ona stać się podstawą dla m.in. czołgu podstawowego polskiej armii, ale też innych pojazdów na podwoziach gąsienicowych, w tym artylerii samobieżnej, wozów zabezpieczenia technicznego i przepraw mostowych. Tylko w przypadku platformy ciężkiej gąsienicowej chodzi o potencjalne zamówienie na kilkaset wozów.

"Bumar Łabędy będzie miał duży udział w tym projekcie - będzie m.in. realizował zadania związane z wykonaniem prototypu, a potem seryjnej produkcji czołgu podstawowego na platformie uniwersalnej. () Omówiliśmy sprawy związane z projektowaniem i przygotowaniem do realizacji tego zadania. Ufamy, że za dwa lata będzie prototyp do prób, testów" - zaznaczył Skrzypczak.

W projekcie platformy opracowana została już koncepcja wozu wsparcia bezpośredniego. "Opracowywany tzw. demonstrator technologii ma być pokazany na tegorocznych targach MSOP Kielce" - powiedział PAP wicedyrektor ds. rozwoju OBRUM Paweł Lamla. "Przewidujemy, że ten projekt będzie realizowany z zagranicznym partnerem strategicznym tak, aby dokonać transferu technologii" - dodał.

Nowa platforma będzie mogła pełnić funkcję wozu wsparcia bezpośredniego czy czołgu podstawowego - w zależności m.in. od zamontowanej wieży. Gliwicki zakład przygotowuje się do produkcji wież 105 i 120 mm, opracowywane są także bezzałogowe wieże 30 mm. "Widzimy Bumar-Łabędy, jako centrum wieżowe dla wszystkich systemów wieżowych, jakie będą dedykowane dla polskich platform bojowych" - zaznaczył w poniedziałek Skrzypczak.

Prócz projektu platformy Łabędy i OBRUM mają także - w ramach programu pancernego - koordynować modernizację 128 czołgów Leopard. W tej sprawie współpracują ze specjalizującym się w takich zadaniach monachijskim konsorcjum Krauss-Maffei Wegmann (KMW). Obecnie opracowywana jest koncepcja zmodernizowanego czołgu, jego prototyp do badań ma być gotowy na koniec tego roku.

"Budujemy w tej chwili zdolności do realizacji tego zadania z Niemcami. Fabryka będzie wymagała dosyć istotnych zmian w zakresie technologii produkcji - () zdolności te będą gotowe w połowie przyszłego roku" - powiedział Lamla.

W pozostałych projektach Polskiego Narodowego Programu Pancernego - platformy lekkiej, kołowego transportera opancerzonego i transportera inżynieryjnego - Łabędy i OBRUM są partnerami mających je realizować konsorcjów.

Wiceminister Skrzypczak akcentował w poniedziałek, że przygotowania do realizacji projektów programu pancernego trwają niezależnie od kwestii tzw. konsolidacji przemysłu zbrojeniowego. Zgodnie z zapowiedzią premiera Donalda Tuska, koncepcja konsolidacji, wypracowywana przez resorty obrony, skarbu i gospodarki, ma być przedstawiona do końca marca.

Prezes Grupy Bumar Krzysztof Krystowski wskazał natomiast, że trwający już proces konsolidacji w obrębie grupy ma prowadzić m.in. do przeniesienia OBRUM, a także zakładów Bumar Mikulczyce, na teren Bumaru Łabędy. Działające w Łabędach - i docelowo powiązane kapitałowo - OBRUM ma stać się centrum konstrukcyjnym dywizji Bumar Ląd. Obecnie w skład Bumaru Ląd, jednej z czterech dywizji Grupy Bumar, poza OBRUM-em i Łabędami, wchodzą Zakłady Mechaniczne Tarnów.

W kontekście projektów programu pancernego Bumar nie przewiduje - przynajmniej na razie - zwiększania zatrudnienia w Łabędach. Zakłada natomiast przyjęcia nowych pracowników w obszarze badawczo-rozwojowym. Bazą kadrową dla OBRUM są m.in. absolwenci Wydziału Mechaniczno-Technologicznego Politechniki Śląskiej.(PAP)

About Polish armor program. I have a hunch that a 105mm tank gun turret module and lightweight modular platform can be a proposal for countries like India. Of course option is a 120mm tank gun turret module that is probably mainly intended as armament of heavyweight modular platform.

This press news also give some ideas.

Heavyweight platform is intedned for new MBT, SPH, ARV and AVLB only, which suggest that engine will be at the rear, and front armor will be solid composite array.

Which means that earlier 3d model presented in TV, might be a lighweight platform model in reality that shows a light tank variant with front mounted engine and a 105mm or 120mm turret module.

My theory is that they will plan to replace PT-91's and some T-72's with MBT based on heavyweight platform, and supplement the loss of rest of T-72's with a lightweight platform based light tank, which will be also intended for expeditionary operations. While Leopard 2PL's will serve a longer time, and wil be replaced eventually in a more distant future.

Also what is important, there is a lot of investitions and help from KMW to redesign production facility in city of Łabędy, also OBRUM will be transferred there, and will form a basis for national designing center for designing AFV's, and located on factory terrain for better cooperation.

Good news I must say, and the duet of minister Siemioniak and vice minister Skrzypczak is one of the best in history of our MoD.
@Kunal Biswas, I am sure you Indians are interested in developments, perhaps a lightweight platform and unmanned turret modules will be interesting for you.

 

[militarysta]

@Damian

-propably next batch 128 leo-2A4/A5 for Poland and mod all 256 leopard-2 to circa 2A5 variant will be short-term solution before new polish tank will be redy.
on this MSPO in september all will be clear. I hope that our developers don't take Merkava as pattern (model) and engine will be at rear and on front will be nice, big, thick front cavity for special armour.
And KMW help will be necessery this time.
More or less - last two weeks have a lot good news for polish Armored Corps

Good news I must say, and the duet of minister Siemioniak and vice minister Skrzypczak is one of the best in history of our MoD.

x2

 

[Damian]

I agree, it is better to keep a closer eye tough, afterall we might become one of bigger AFV's manufacturers in Europe, taking place of such declining big manufacturers like UK, Italy or even France.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Good footage from Syrian War ..


RPG-29 making meat out of T-72M1..

 

[militarysta]

Good footage from Syrian War ..

RPG-29 making meat out of T-72M1..

Well only few MBTs have abilities to windstand RPG-29 from sides... M1A2 TUSK with ARAT-2, Oplot-M, CR2 Street Fighter, meybe Leopard-2A4CAN, leopard-2A7, MBT Revolution whit IBD armour, and maeby Leclerc-AZUR. And this is all...

 

[militarysta]

Whole shape is like oin Anders-WWO only novum is smth before ammo rack and autoloader -Ive hope that those mark on blue will be armour.
IMHO - this turret layout is very simmiler to the Ob.640 -the only difrense is that this turret is really unmaned, and Ob.640 had crew in turret basket. And chosing turret whit ammo rack and autoloader in turret bustle is questionable -no one IV gen tank had that solution, exept Ob.640 -but it was short term and middle solution (low risk). Propably OBRUM developers choose this pattern becouse it's mucht simpler then other option and OBRUM and HSW have a lot expieriences in artilery (Krab SPH, Rak self-propose motar, etc) autoloaders in turret.
Well we will see on MSPO2013 what is improved in compare to the Anders. Im only afraid about hull (chasiss) concept...

 

[Damian]

@militarysta, there are rumors that MBT hull might be unified with modular multirole platform only on components base, but in overall design it will be dedicated for MBT.

Also remember what I said, this 3d model might actually represent not heavy platform lub light platform in light tank variant. It is said that Bumar is working on 105mm and 120mm unmanned turret modules, interesting development I might say, such lighter tank can be a good suplement for MBT's.

 

[JKD01]

Well only few MBTs have abilities to windstand RPG-29 from sides... M1A2 TUSK with ARAT-2, Oplot-M, CR2 Street Fighter, meybe Leopard-2A4CAN, leopard-2A7, MBT Revolution whit IBD armour, and maeby Leclerc-AZUR. And this is all...

I'd say Merkava Mk4 too, they prooved themselves during 2006 in Lebanon, despite awfull strategy in that war. And after 2006. Merkavas got improved (Merkava Mk4 BAZ) with better armor (M-TAPS) plus Trophy APS...

 

[farhan_9909]

 

[Damian]

Interesting I must say, however looks a bit unelegant design.

 

[farhan_9909]

i am more interested in the RCWS and the new panoramic sight.

 

[Damian]

Interesting.

M1A1SA presented on IDEX-2013, have some components from M1A2SEP, it seems that this is further work to improve commonality between these variants.

It seems that this M1A1SA have installation slot for VCSU that is subsystem for air conditioning system.

And that box in storage basket, new APU?

And interesting thing, so if M1A1SA have received an elegant, fully stabilized commander cupola with machine gun, why M1A2SEP should not.

I think this is a replacement for CROWS, more elegant, compact.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

The most important thing is, It does provide low silhouette compare to other issued RCWS..