Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

[Damian]

Радио ЭХО Москвы :: Арсенал, 11.03.2013 22:05 Тяжелая российская бронетехника. Существующие образцы и перспективы платформы 'Армата': Олег СиенкÐ

Interview with Oleg Sienko, he talks about platform "Armata".

In short, there will be around 30 versions of "Armata", MBT, IFV, SPH etc. Different configurations with engine at front or rear, unmanned turrets, new composite armor and dynamic protection.

 

[Austin]

Tank on a platform of "Armata" will receive a brand new layout with an uninhabited combat module - CEO "Uralvagonzavod"

MOSCOW, March 12. (ARMS-TASS). Tank based on currently being developed combat platform "Armata" will receive a brand new layout, which has no analogues in the world, in particular, an uninhabited "tower." This was the general director of the Scientific and Production Corporation (NGOs) "Uralvagonzavod" Oleg Sienko.

"It is a new machine, which has a new layout, which no one," - he said on the radio station "Echo of Moscow", adding that the new tank on the basis of "Almaty was" will, in particular, uninhabited combat compartment.

Sienko said that this universal platform can be created about 30 machines for different purposes, it involves a different placement of the engine - both front and back, depending on what type of combat vehicle will be "installed" on this platform - BMP or such as SAM. For the main battle tank (MBT), which will be produced at its base, developing new ammunition and a set of dynamic protection of the new generation. In the "Armata" will be used "a totally different technology on the armor, all cars will increase survivability in the real battle," said Sienko.

CEO NGOs stressed that the importance of the new MBT is also the engine. "It needs only a new engine: a fundamentally different, easy to me, - he said. - Engine, which can be changed in a matter of minutes, which is extremely important in certain conditions." "Of course power also plays a role," - said the head of the corporation, adding that now the tanks came to those performance results that correspond to wheeled vehicles. In "Almaty was" in particular, will be "very different performance results, making this car the pride of Russian tank production, although it can not be called a pure tank," added the CEO.

Sienko said he hoped that by the end of this year, the corporation will be able to complete the main work on the "Armata" will continue to be refined only individual nodes. He informed that "Armata" will not be on display at an international exhibition in Nizhny Tagil in September, not least because it is still secret development.

The platform is developed rapidly, the parameters that you specify "Uralvagonzavod" in the Defense Ministry, he seeks to accomplish, Sienko said. CEO emphasized that "nothing in the world is not done on a universal platform, all platforms are different," and Russia is the only country which today is going to release a new series armored vehicles, and other countries are on the path of modernization.

In the case of MBT based on the platform, "Armata", "Uralvagonzavod" hopes to produce a certain time "tank-dream," joked Sienko.

 

[farhan_9909]

Confusions

the dimensions of Al khalid and arjun when i compare they are mostly similar

Al khalid dimensions

Length 10.07 m (33.0 ft)
Width 3.50 m (11.5 ft)
Height 2.40 m (7.9 ft)

Arjun dimensions

Length 10.638 metres (34 ft 10.8 in)
Width 3.864 metres (12 ft 8.1 in)
Height 2.32 metres (7 ft 7 in)

source wiki

still the Arjun weighs 8-9tonnes more than Al khalid(Ak1 weighs 1800kg more hence AK now weighs 50tonnes)

what is the reason behind the 8-9tonnes more weight of arjun over AK?

*Armour difference?
*Turret size(included)

or what is the major reason?any guess?

 

[Bhadra]

I agree, it is better to keep a closer eye tough, afterall we might become one of bigger AFV's manufacturers in Europe, taking place of such declining big manufacturers like UK, Italy or even France.

When will the next war be fought in Europe ?? Is there any likelihood ? If not then, why make second world war machines (tanks) ?

 

[Damian]

When will the next war be fought in Europe ?? Is there any likelihood ? If not then, why make second world war machines (tanks) ?

Oh, so you expect that there will be peace forever?

Same naive thinking as after 1st World War that was intended as "war that ends all wars", what happened later, everyone knows.

And tanks are not obsolete, you are obsolete with your silly thinking, besides this we do not design pure tanks, but modular, multipurpose platforms that will be base for new tank, infantry fighting vehicle etc. And why do we need them, just like all normal countries, like USA or Russia, because tanks are nececary to perform offensive, defensive operations both in conventional and assymetric warfare.

Only idiots withdraw their tanks from service, especially the modern ones. Dutch Army is allready complaining about goverment decision to withdraw their tanks from service, Army is currently 100% sure, that they can't perform any offensive operations, their defensive potential is seriously limited, country is preaty much vurnable.

 

[asianobserve]

When will the next war be fought in Europe ?? Is there any likelihood ? If not then, why make second world war machines (tanks) ?

The next big war will start here in Asia.

 

[Damian]

The next big war will start here in Asia.

Well, knowing that Asia is place of interest of NATO, or west in general, we might need to manufacture a lot of tanks, if not only for our own needs, but perhaps there will be some customers that need tracked platform, both light and heavy weight.

 

[Bhadra]

 

[Decklander]

Arjun MK-3 might also be a turretless derivative and with separate compartment for crew.

 

[Damian]

Might be, and this would be actually good decision to follow unmanned turret design, with obvious benefits.

Actually every new design now will have unmanned turrets, be it tank or IFV.

Our designers are aiming at such design feature, US designers as well, of course Russians and Germans.

 

[Damian]

M1 Abrams Tank | Army Modifications Budget FY2013-FY2017

Worth to read, US DoD document about ECP modernization for M1 tanks.

 

[militarysta]

what is the reason behind the 8-9tonnes more weight of arjun over AK?

*Armour difference?
*Turret size(included)

or what is the major reason?any guess?

Arjun have very big turret internal volument -thats reson most of armour protection and weight problem.
When you have circa 8t. for turret armour and you have two turret -one whit 5m3 internal volume annd second whit 8m3 then whis first turrat shoud be better protected becouse more armour kg is for less m3 volume. Of course it's only example.
Here you have life example how it's works:

But when we recaluculate voumen-armour mass ratio we shoud remember about armour itself.
I had been writing about this here:

And I made mistake in compare mas (kg of armoured steel) in turret armour for T-72B and Leopard-2A4.

T-72B nacked turret weight not 11 600kg but, only circa 8 688 kg. It change a lot.

First I will make sevral general assumptions:

1. Leopard-2A4 turret have frontal volumen 20% bigger then T-72B.
2. BUrlinghton style armour in Leopard-2A4 have mass efficiency -at lest 1,5 x kg vs KE and at lest 3 z kg vs HEAT -according to the data from 1978, and posted in two greate articles about erly Burlinghton ( I've already quoted them before)
3. The same mass efficiency is taken for T-72B "NERA style" special armour -maybe it's revaluation but I'd rather prefer to overestimated soviet tank then understimated.
4. In T-72B 80% turret mass is taken for frontal protection (+/- 30.degree) - rest (20%) of nacked turret mass is taken for roof, rear sides and turret back. So from 8 680kg it give 6 950kg (inluding NERA special armour). Both NERA armour inserts weight 740kg, so rest of turret armour weight 6 210kg.
5. From known Leopard-2A4 "special armour mass" 8 900kg ~22% is taken for turret sides, so only frontal armour (+/-30 -without turret sides) we have 6 942kg

Now small compare:
T-72B 6 210kg of cast steel turret x0.9 as RHA converter = 6 210kg x0,9= 5 588kg. So whole cast steel T-72B turret armour act like 5 588kg RHA. Now "special armour" cavities (both NERA inserts).
Against APFSDS: 740kg x 1,5 = 1100kg, and against HEAT: 740kg x 3 = 2220kg. So those values are RHA equivalent, and we shoud add them to previous mass.
5 588kg + 1100kg RHA= ~6 688 kg stell armour vs APFSDS
5 588kg + 2200kg RHA= ~7 788kg stell armour vs HEAT


Leopard-2A4 turret weigh 16t, special armour weight 8 900kg, 22% of it ist taken for turret sides, so for +/-30. we have only 6 942kg of special armour. Now x 1,5 vs APFSDS and x 3 vs HEAT:
10 410kg RHA vs APFSDS
20 826kg RHA vs HEAT

Now compare for both tanks:


vs APFSDS
T-72B : 6 688 kg stell armour vs APFSDS
Leopard-2A4: 10 410kg RHA vs APFSDS

So leopard-2A4 armour have 35% more kg of steel armour for protection. Even after taking into account 25% bigger front turret, we have still 10% diffrence against T-72B.

vs HEAT:
T-72B ~7 788kg stell armour vs HEAT
Leopard-2A4: ~20 826kg RHA vs HEAT

So Leopard-2A4 have ~63% more kg of steel armour for protection. Even after taking into account 25% bigger front turret, we have still 38-40% diffrence against T-72B.


So as I wrote -in reality, Soviet cast steel turets shoud have less density protction in kg of RHA plates equivalent. And whe take only one from many factor - how many kog of steel plates is placed in some volumen. When we included other factor like:
- higher hardnes of western plates included in armour
- fact that stack of steel plates whit the same weight and thckness is 1.2 better then RHA monoblock
and others
then this difference will be even greater (against soviet tanks).

just read this

 

[313230]

Well only few MBTs have abilities to windstand RPG-29 from sides... M1A2 TUSK with ARAT-2, Oplot-M, CR2 Street Fighter, meybe Leopard-2A4CAN, leopard-2A7, MBT Revolution whit IBD armour, and maeby Leclerc-AZUR. And this is all...

Source?

Also turret or hull?
Leo2a7 has ~15- 20 cm of add on armor over side hull, let assume total LOS addon + base armor is ~30cm, given that against 700mm RHA of RPG 29, the thickness equivalent is more than 2, too high to be true. M1 arat2, similar, the thickness is too low.

If there is a tank which can withstand rpg29 from side, then they will make marketing about it like. The truth is none, I only seen the Oplot M advertised it.

 

[methos]

The Leopard 2A7 has more than 15 cm armour at the sides. The original heavy side skirts are 15 cm thick, the newer skirts on the Leopard 2A7 seem to be twice as thick.
Important is also that the whole array (composite armour and base armour) works as spaced armour thanks to the 635 mm wide tracks.

 

[Damian]

Source?

Also turret or hull?
Leo2a7 has ~15- 20 cm of add on armor over side hull, let assume total LOS addon + base armor is ~30cm, given that against 700mm RHA of RPG 29, the thickness equivalent is more than 2, too high to be true. M1 arat2, similar, the thickness is too low.

If there is a tank which can withstand rpg29 from side, then they will make marketing about it like. The truth is none, I only seen the Oplot M advertised it.

You seem to not understand that thickness alone is not everything. Leopard 2A7 addon armor is advanced composite with most probably NERA components, very efficent against shaped charges. M1 series with TUSK use ERA, in case of ERA thickness is even less important. The M19 ARAT-1 cassette have multiple reactive layers inside, placed at angle, so in path of shaped charge jet, there are allways at least two ERA layers, M32 ARAT-2 adds additional ERA cassettes, so there are at least 3 ERA layers, first one that neutralize precursor + next two layers against main charge.

So before you wrote something, read and think.

 

[Bhadra]

Well, knowing that Asia is place of interest of NATO, or west in general, we might need to manufacture a lot of tanks, if not only for our own needs, but perhaps there will be some customers that need tracked platform, both light and heavy weight.

Merchants of death ?? Nothing else to sell ??

 

[Bhadra]

Oh, so you expect that there will be peace forever?

Same naive thinking as after 1st World War that was intended as "war that ends all wars", what happened later, everyone knows.

And tanks are not obsolete, you are obsolete with your silly thinking, besides this we do not design pure tanks, but modular, multipurpose platforms that will be base for new tank, infantry fighting vehicle etc. And why do we need them, just like all normal countries, like USA or Russia, because tanks are nececary to perform offensive, defensive operations both in conventional and assymetric warfare.

Only idiots withdraw their tanks from service, especially the modern ones. Dutch Army is allready complaining about goverment decision to withdraw their tanks from service, Army is currently 100% sure, that they can't perform any offensive operations, their defensive potential is seriously limited, country is preaty much vurnable.

Oh, the Polish paranoia of Russian or German takeover remains ?

Of Course, the tank is not obsolete for you but what is the use of tanks for a country which has 80 percent mountainious terrain on borders ? you make tanks to suit your requirements and do not design for us.

I admire a Polish guy comparing his country with USA and Russia !

Tank is offensive weapon that is the precise reason I advocate that no European country should have tanks unless India can come and invade !!

 

[Damian]

Merchants of death ?? Nothing else to sell ??

Pacifist bollocks.

Oh, the Polish paranoia of Russian or German takeover remains ?

No, this is called common sense, you can never feel 100% safe, not today, not tommorow but someday, you can have a war.

Of Course, the tank is not obsolete for you but what is the use of tanks for a country which has 80 percent mountainious terrain on borders ? you make tanks to suit your requirements and do not design for us.

What I can say to pacifist like you, that do not have slightest idea about military and military technology? You are absolutely immune to all kind of knowledge.

I admire a Polish guy comparing his country with USA and Russia !

And where did I compared Poland with USA or Russian Federation? Give me a precise quote where I say so, oh wait, there is non of such words made by me, little silly lier.

Tank is offensive weapon that is the precise reason I advocate that no European country should have tanks unless India can come and invade !!

Stupid talk of man with stupid post colonial complexes.

 

[hest]

You seem to not understand that thickness alone is not everything. Leopard 2A7 addon armor is advanced composite with most probably NERA components, very efficent against shaped charges.

But let people know how would it work, claim will need more arguments.

M1 series with TUSK use ERA, in case of ERA thickness is even less important. The M19 ARAT-1 cassette have multiple reactive layers inside, placed at angle, so in path of shaped charge jet, there are allways at least two ERA layers, M32 ARAT-2 adds additional ERA cassettes, so there are at least 3 ERA layers, first one that neutralize precursor + next two layers against main charge.

Such disposition is not necesarily related with anti-tandem mechanism. Conception is erroneous.

You present this as example of anti-tandem protection ?

 

[Bhadra]

Pacifist bollocks.



No, this is called common sense, you can never feel 100% safe, not today, not tommorow but someday, you can have a war.



What I can say to pacifist like you, that do not have slightest idea about military and military technology? You are absolutely immune to all kind of knowledge.



And where did I compared Poland with USA or Russian Federation? Give me a precise quote where I say so, oh wait, there is non of such words made by me, little silly lier.



Stupid talk of man with stupid post colonial complexes.

Ha Ha Ha...

You said it and I quote :

And why do we need them, just like all normal countries, like USA or Russia, because tanks are nececary to perform offensive, defensive operations both in conventional and assymetric warfare.

so you compare yourself to Russia and USA ... Is not it ?? Or you make tanks for them ??

Tank is dead .. long live the tank !!!