Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

If Tanks have to evolve, which path they should follow?

  • Light Vehicles-Best for mobility

    Votes: 25 7.3%
  • Heavy Armour-Can take heavy punishment.

    Votes: 57 16.7%
  • Modular Design-Allowing dynamic adaptions.

    Votes: 198 58.1%
  • Universal Platform-Best for logistics.

    Votes: 61 17.9%

  • Total voters
    341

Akim

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I would not invest much in tanks, like the air craft carrier and not stealth air crafts they are on the way out.
I welcome you on DFI!
It is a widespread error in a statement, that a tank is outdated. A tank is the edge of shock power of Ground forces and nobody him will not replace, neither "carpet" bombardments nor point shots. All last wars Americans used a tank. Other business is in a rightness and efficiency use their enemy. Since, in 19 century invented a machine gun, arabs lost the general advantage They always won a number. Always, yet from times of the Crusaders.
Regarding the new types of tanks, who who answered, it is a more stumper and he is necessary to be decomposed on denominators.
The direct race of armaments made off naturally, but the technological race of armaments was closed never. The author of this article which you published has the very limited knowledge about her, and to no purpose he deletes off post-Soviet countries from this marathon. Naturally nobody can тягатся with the USA in a military export – Russia sold that year in 14 times less than weaponry what America, but level of the Russian and Ukrainian tanks to the match level of "western" machines. Now to this level tightened China. And there are not allies in this race. German tanks compete at this market with American as well as with Russian and Ukrainian and French.
Certainly, you can assert that "Abrams" is considered a "tank one number". But in this race there is yet such segment as a "price - quality" And here the American tank loses to German.
 
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Damian

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Only complete idiot can say that tank is pillbox, not transportable, or can be replaced by light fire support vehicles.

Bhadra for Your information. US Army resigned from procuring more M1128 MGS Stryker, why? Because normal MBT like M1A2SEP is just better, in fact US Army is redirecting funds for deep modernization or M1 series replacement R&D program, and they don't give a shit about arm chair generals wanting to replace tank with some tincans with low survivability, low tactical mobility and low firepower.

And Merkava is not the best MBT overhere, have many weakness, and to be honest I would never want to fight in this thing, Front mounted powerpack is not optimal solution for MBT, making it's frontal protection weaker.

What is in is the platform which can combine Infantry and mechanised vehicle. Air transportable, sea transportable and formidable for quick actions.
US Army was working on such vehicle, and You know what they said after experience in Iraq and Afghanistan? ---- all these idiotic ideas, let's just use a tank.

The tanks did not do any thing much in Iraq or Afghanistan that is why all Abrahams are in garages.... Strykers are out and running
WTF? Are You ----ing kidding me kid?

And what the hell is this?



Yes it's M1A1 in Afghanistan.

Andone more thing... It is Abrams, after General Creighton Abrams You uneducated fool!

Not to mention that tanks in Iraq and Afghanistan have plenty to do... damn in Iraq during famous battle for City Hall when Polish Soldiers were defending city hall in one of Iraqi cities, they would have been killed if not American tanks coming to support them.

Not air forces, neither artillery saved their asses, but tanks. This is the truth, not a fantasy of some kids fascinated in idiotic theories about "end of the tank".
 
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Bhadra

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Only complete idiot can say that tank is pillbox, not transportable, or can be replaced by light fire support vehicles.

Bhadra for Your information. US Army resigned from procuring more M1128 MGS Stryker, why? Because normal MBT like M1A2SEP is just better, in fact US Army is redirecting funds for deep modernization or M1 series replacement R&D program, and they don't give a shit about arm chair generals wanting to replace tank with some tincans with low survivability, low tactical mobility and low firepower.

And Merkava is not the best MBT overhere, have many weakness, and to be honest I would never want to fight in this thing, Front mounted powerpack is not optimal solution for MBT, making it's frontal protection weaker.



US Army was working on such vehicle, and You know what they said after experience in Iraq and Afghanistan? ---- all these idiotic ideas, let's just use a tank.



WTF? Are You ----ing kidding me kid?

And what the hell is this?



Yes it's M1A1 in Afghanistan.

Andone more thing... It is Abrams, after General Creighton Abrams You uneducated fool!
yes those Abraham fight the cave men and desert tribals you idiot when your tanks like T-72 go hiding, driven by Arab cowards !

Are you glorifying tanks on idiotic musings ! Stop that and be logical....

I hope you have not forgotten the beatings the T series and BMP got in Afghanistan?

With Abrahams why does not USA win the bloody war in Afghanistan. Why show photos when result speak for itself???????????????????
 
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Damian

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yes those Abraham fight the cave men and desert tribals you idiot when your tanks like T-72 go hiding, driven by Arab cowards !

Are you glorifying tanks on idiotic musings ! Stop that and be logical....

I hope you have not forgotten the beatings the T series and BMP got in Afghanistan?

With Abrahams why does not USA win the bloody war ???????????????????
First this is that tank is called Abrams... Are You even capable to read? Uneducated fool?

Second Americans are using tanks as universal platform, to fight with different threats, be it armored or unarmored, this is for what tanks are designed to.

Third, Americans treat Strykers as interim vehicles untill heavy tracked GCV IFV and it's specialized variants will be inducted in to service.

Fourth Soviets in Afghanistan used outdated T-54/55 and T-62's only.

Fifth, if You belive that winning assymethric war is easy to won, only because You use one type of weapon, then definetly I'am talking here with kid...

It is just stupid to resign from one ofthe most successfull and relatively cheap weapon systems.

Not to mention that tanks have this needed balance between survivability, mobility and firepower.

And it is even more strange that Bhadra seems to not even know what is happening today all around us, and he don't know the history of the first few years of XXI century. :D

Why show photos when result speak for itself???????????????????
Better ask me why I even should talk with You? You represent low intelectual level, complete lack of knowledge about subject we discuss and history, so why I even should waste time on such useless life form like You?
 
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average american

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I welcome you on DFI!
It is a widespread error in a statement, that a tank is outdated. A tank is the edge of shock power of Ground forces and nobody him will not replace, neither "carpet" bombardments nor point shots. All last wars Americans used a tank. Other business is in a rightness and efficiency use their enemy. Since, in 19 century invented a machine gun, arabs lost the general advantage They always won a number. Always, yet from times of the Crusaders.
Regarding the new types of tanks, who who answered, it is a more stumper and he is necessary to be decomposed on denominators.
The direct race of armaments made off naturally, but the technological race of armaments was closed never. The author of this article which you published has the very limited knowledge about her, and to no purpose he deletes off post-Soviet countries from this marathon. Naturally nobody can тягатся with the USA in a military export – Russia sold that year in 14 times less than weaponry what America, but level of the Russian and Ukrainian tanks to the match level of "western" machines. Now to this level tightened China. And there are not allies in this race. German tanks compete at this market with American as well as with Russian and Ukrainian and French.
Certainly, you can assert that "Abrams" is considered a "tank one number". But in this race there is yet such segment as a "price - quality" And here the American tank loses to German.
""level of the Russian and Ukrainian tanks to the match level of "western" machines""

Thats an assumption that varies from reality. In the Iraq US tanks went through Russian tanks like a knife through butter. It was never expected that Iraq with thousands of tanks would actually win, but what threw Russia in to a panic was that Russian tanks could not even kill an american tank.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMvcPGuaRUI

Iraq War I: The Battle for the 73 Easting: U.S. Army Fort Knox Documentary, Part 2 - YouTube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSyG0zccGxs&feature=related
 
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Damian

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First I shall keep calling it Abrahams..... two hoots to you.
Then it only prooves You are useless form of life... pity I can't slap You in a face.

Secondly, I had said in the very begining that there is not going to be conventional battles... No tank batles... only Asymetric warfare. In that Tanks have fu** all of a role to play...
After 1st World War people were saying that there will be no more wars... yeah, You are just as stupid and naive as they were, congratulations useless form of life!

why fight a rat mounting on elephant.....
Why listen to a person, who don't even know history... and is useless form of life.

Try and understand that.... fighting a war or military operation is a function of cost analysis.... Indian Army in last 65 war has not used tanks to fight such wars even once.... tanks are in garages... fool...
And who gives a ---- what Indian Army do? IA is not creating military trends, is not seen as the most advanced and best trained too.

""level of the Russian and Ukrainian tanks to the match level of "western" machines""

Thats an assumption that varies from reality. In the Iraq US tanks went through Russian tanks like a knife through butter. It was never expected that Iraq with thousands of tanks would actually win, but what threw Russia in to a panic was that Russian tanks could not even kill an american tank.....

Iraq War I: The Battle for the 73 Easting: U.S. Army Fort Knox Documentary, Part 2 - YouTube

Iraq War I: The Battle for the 73 Easting: U.S. Army Fort Knox Documentary, Part 2 - YouTube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSyG0...eature=related
Another amateur...

Iraqis were using "monkey models", this means downgraded export tanks.

You know what, go to the TankNet and read what about Soviet Tanks have to say mr. Jim Warford, he was in US Army, he written tons of articles for Armor Magazine, and he will tell You what reality is, not what stupid YouTube pseudo documentaries says to You.
 
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Akim

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I know this fairy-tale. But will begin with that in Iraq Americans ran into "export" tanks and old l ammunitions which the Soviet army left off to apply in 1975! And the level of preparation of the American tank crew members it can not compare to the level of teaching of Iraqi.
 

Damian

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It is true what Akim said.

Not to mention that actually US Army lost several M1A1 in 1991, actually 28 were disabled with approx 5 completely lost... no losses in crew members tough.
 

Damian

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Certainly, you can assert that "Abrams" is considered a "tank one number". But in this race there is yet such segment as a "price - quality" And here the American tank loses to German.
Well Akim, I do not agree with this statement. Quality of both tanks is comparable, as well as price, however Leopard 2 due to more economic engine is cheaper tank when itcomes to vehicle service costs. M1 however have better overall design, better protection in terms of armor integrity, and better crew survivability, currently unmatched by any other design.

So it depends on priorities of customer, one will choose smaller service costs, the other one will choose better survivability.
 
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average american

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Dont you think it is time to quit makeing excuses for Russian Equipments, excuses are for women and children, not men fighting war. 500 migs crash, this excuse, US takes out 2000 tanks, that excuse, US takes out targets in Baghdad, the most heavily defended city by Russian antiaircraft systems outside Moscow like the defenses did not even exist. another excuse. Kill ratio of US air Craft to Russian and USSR air craft are nearly 20 to 1,, even more excuses. Israel for 40 years have been victorias in the Middle East while being out vastly out numbered in manpower and equipment, more excuses.


You have forty million reasons for failure, but not a single good excuse.
 

Damian

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I hope You understand difference between fully capable weapon system and downgraded export "monkey model"?

USSR never exported even best equipment to even close allies from Warsaw Pact countries.

For example WarPac recived downgraded monkey model the T-72M1,while Soviet Union was using more advanced and better T-64A, T-64B, T-80B, T-80U, T-80UD or T-72B, that were more capable, and more comparable with 3rd generation NATO MBT's.

May I ask You, what actually You know about history of development of NATO and Soviet Union weapon systems?
 

Akim

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Dont you think it is time to quit makeing excuses for Russian Equipments, excuses are for women and children, not men fighting war. 500 migs crash, this excuse, US takes out 2000 tanks, that excuse, US takes out targets in Baghdad, the most heavily defended city by Russian antiaircraft systems outside Moscow like the defenses did not even exist. another excuse. Kill ratio of US air Craft to Russian and USSR air craft are nearly 20 to 1,, even more excuses. Israel for 40 years have been victorias in the Middle East while being out vastly out numbered in manpower and equipment, more excuses.


You have forty million reasons for failure, but not a single good excuse.
Please, it's all in the section of Military History
Military History
 

militarysta

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Dont you think it is time to quit makeing excuses for Russian Equipments, excuses are for women and children, not men fighting war. 500 migs crash, this excuse, US takes out 2000 tanks, that excuse, US takes out targets in Baghdad, the most heavily defended city by Russian antiaircraft systems outside Moscow like the defenses did not even exist. another excuse. Kill ratio of US air Craft to Russian and USSR air craft are nearly 20 to 1,, even more excuses. Israel for 40 years have been victorias in the Middle East while being out vastly out numbered in manpower and equipment, more excuses.


You have forty million reasons for failure, but not a single good excuse.
You know - my friend take a part on VictorStrike2000 and 2001 in Drawsko Pomorskie trening center in Poland.
During this trening fight (whit using MILES system) american regiment Ah-64A + OH-58 Kiowa where coopereting whit MLRS battery. The target was polish air defence using non-downgraded SA-8M Gecko (now Sting" SA-8P Sting ADMS Air Defence Missile System) And what? And US fools lose whole AH-64 regiment during polish AA ambush. And thanks to not using radars in long mode (only short for directing) and very quick change of position Sa-8 lost only 2 complex for MLRS battery fire. Quite low when we consider the fact that US army "lost" in this MILES battle more then 30 Ah-64...
In next year "battle" where repeated - This time with ridiculous restrictions for Sa-8Gecko battery (fire range limited to max 2km, no using radars, 2times shorter time for MLRS battery countrfire) and what? ~4-6 Sa-8 lost and... 16 Ah-64 "killed" in this MILES battle.
And in both cases Ah-64 regiment whit MLRS COOPERATION was not able to destroy the target (mechanizated batalion). The Sa-8P not guilty Ah-64 regiment near target area. The Ah-64 was not able to using weapons because there was not able event to approach near target.
The key was using terrein for ambush and using non advanced posoration system (ex: microwave on jeep, or a small motor connected to the radio station). This, and well-trained Sa-8 crews was enought to "destroy" Ah-64 regiment during first battle, and stopduring second. In both cases the target was not destroyed becouse Ah-64 regiment was not able to attack near target area.

And old Sa-8 is not Tor... It's not only example when even polish slighty downgraded WarPac AA was better then USarmy image...An there was more suprises - ex the same time to "Fire task" fo MLRS battery and... polish BM-21 GRAD battery (using Topaz system).
 
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Damian

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Ok, so to describe a history of NATO and USSR MBT's during Cold War and beyond.

In 1960's NATO started to field new tanks in their inventory, lightly armored but well armed and very mobile Leopard 1 and AMX-30, and better protected, with similiar firepower and lower mobility, the M60 and Chieftain. At that time the basic medium tank of USSR and WarPac was T-54 and it's upgrade the T-55. In the same time Alexander Morozov abandoned work on all tanks manufactured back then in USSR and started to work on new revolutionary tank, this tank was T-64. Of course T-64 development history is long and very interesting, but I do not have time to write about it here right now.

So during 1960's Soviet Union have a medium tank (only ~38 metric tons weight) that is more mobile, better armored and better armed than anything else used around the world.

From T-64 evolved simplified T-72, that was seen as mobilization tank and tank for all allies of soviet union, while T-64 was exclusive only for USSR armed forces.

And there was a third tank based on concept of T-64 but, again different, intended mainly as analog to old heavy breakthrough tanks, the T-80.

All of these T-64, T-72 and T-80 were based on the same general design concept, but where different in details, mechanical components etc.

Of course each of these designs evolved.

T-64A recived for example powered cupola with ability to fire commander machine gun from the inside. T-64B recived modern digital fire control system, and guided ammunition in form of gun launched anti tank guided missile, T-64 series also had the most advanced and promising engine from all soviet tanks, the 5TD. T-80B recived the similiar fire control system as T-64B, but used GTE and had simpler commander cupola.

T-72 series were for the most time simplified tanks, untill more modern T-72B with better protection than T-64B and T-80B was fielded, still T-72B had inferior fire control system.

But all these were seen as outdated by soviet armed forces, and more modern tanks based on T-80 were designed, the gas turbine powered T-80U, intended as replacement for T-80B, and T-80UD powered with advanced diesel 6TD (further development of 5TD), in general more advanced than T-80U, and intended as T-64B replacement.

NATO untill 1979-1980 didn't had anything capable to stand against these tanks. But in these mentioned years, FRG fielded first Leopard 2's, and USA first M1's, while in 1983 UK fielded first Challenger 1.

In general overview for the most of the ending years of the cold war, NATO and USSR was head to head in tanks design, however there was one advantage that NATO had.

This advantage was lack of heavy restrictions on tanks size and weight, this allowed NATO tank designers to incorporate composite armor, where there was far more space in armor cavity for composite armor filler. Also using mostly welded structures, allowed for far more easier composite armor impementation.

This gave NATO advantage in composite armors, however price for it was weight well over 55 tons, in fact in 1988 the M1A1HA was approx ~60 metric tons heavy, Leopard 2A4 was not much lighter either.

Soviet tank designers were perfectly aware that within very strict size and weight limits (tanks weight could not grow over 50 tons), they will be not capable to increase vehicles protection by increasing space for composite armor filler in vehicles armor cavieties (even if overall armor thickness was similiar in NATO and Soviet designs).

So by early 1980's most tanks were equipped first with relatively simple Kontakt-1 ERA as a messure to increase protection against HEAT, and by mid to late 1980's, some tanks variants recived heavy (universal) Kontakt-5 ERA capable also to increase protection against APFSDS ammunition.

This gave time for soviet designers, unfortunetly for them by the second half of 1980's, NATO tank designers were not only using advantage of more composite armor per whole armor thickness, but also were working on use of advanced materials and heavy metal alloys in armors, while the Russian and Ukrainian tank designers, mostly focused on further development of ERA.

This ended with a very interesting situation where NATO countries are developing more and more advanced composite armors, while Russia/Ukraine is developing more and more advanced ERA while it seems that there is limited focus on more advanced composite armors development there at that moment.

So in fact the best NATO designs, and best Russian/Ukrainian designs, have comparable protection, but achieved by different means, and with different results.

NATO have more advanced composite armors with multi hit capability, but the price is more weight and bigger size.

Russia/Ukraine have more advanced ERA designs, but these are only single hit protection messures, while their composite armors seems to be slightly less advanced, however the advantage of such design is less weight and vehicle smaller size.

Ok, this is only a simplified description, so do not treat it as something far from reality, I could wrote the whole damn book about this subject, and probably single book was too small to bring whole knowledge about this subject.

You know - my friend take a part on VictorStrike2000 and 2001 in Drawsko Pomorskie trening center in Poland.
During this trening fight (whit using MILES system) american regiment Ah-64A + OH-58 Kiowa where coopereting whit MLRS battery. The target was polish air defence using non-downgraded SA-8M Gecko (now Sting" SA-8P Sting ADMS Air Defence Missile System) And what? And US fools lose whole AH-64 regiment during polish AA ambush. And thanks to not using radars in long mode (only short for directing) and very quick change of position Sa-8 lost only 2 complex for MLRS battery fire. Quite low when we consider the fact that US army "lost" in this MILES battle more then 30 Ah-64...
In next year "battle" where repeated - This time with ridiculous restrictions for Sa-8Gecko battery (fire range limited to max 2km, no using radars, 2times shorter time for MLRS battery countrfire) and what? ~4-6 Sa-8 lost and... 16 Ah-64 "killed" in this MILES battle.
And in both cases Ah-64 regiment whit MLRS COOPERATION was not able to destroy the target (mechanizated batalion). The Sa-8P not guilty Ah-64 regiment near target area. The Ah-64 was not able to using weapons because there was not able event to approach near target.
The key was using terrein for ambush and using non advanced posoration system (ex: microwave on jeep, or a small motor connected to the radio station). This, and well-trained Sa-8 crews was enought to "destroy" Ah-64 regiment during first battle, and stopduring second. In both cases the target was not destroyed becouse Ah-64 regiment was not able to attack near target area.

And old Sa-8 is not Tor... It's not only example when even polish slighty downgraded WarPac AA was better then USarmy image...An there was more suprises - ex the same time to "Fire task" fo MLRS battery and... polish BM-21 GRAD battery (using Topaz system).
Americans made during these excerices several mistakes.

They did underestimate their enemy, lack of proper recoinassance, lack of ground troops to provide additional support.

This also shows vurnability of attack helicopters, the same mistakes were repeated in Iraq, where AH-64's were stopped by Iraqi heavy machine guns and light anti aircraft automatic cannons fire.

Well, surprisingly in all wars, air forces have such problems, while ground forces with APC's, IFV's and MBT's even despite losses, can achieve their tasks.

BTW I read several good articles and books about what happend in Iraq in 2003. What American tank crews were doing back then... some things are just incredible. So before anyone will say that tanks are not needed, I can say, and not me, but also soldiers fighting then and there, that without tanks, many more casualties could have been taken by US forces, and probably many tasks could have not been accomplished.
 
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Damian

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Another problem is that any aircraft or helicopter have general low survivability, what I mean by this is, that when it is shot down, it is in allmost 100% complete lost. AFV's and especially tanks, have much higher general survivability, and even lost tank, can be rebuilded in most cases.

Good example here are M1 series. US lost in combat due to mostly IED's and in minority due to dedicated anti tank weapons, approx ~80 tanks in period from 2003 to 2008. Not much, and by official sources only approx ~20 were completely lost, incredibly small numbers espite a fact that by official sources in theater there was approx ~1,000+ M1 tanks used, and 90% of them were attacked by enemy. This shows survivability of tank.

What is even more important, general trend today is to increase protection (and because of this also weight) of lighter vehicle, when during cold war APC's and IFV's were intendted to float, today nobody really bothers with this, and aims for greater survivability.

I can give here a good example, a Polish version of Patria AMV, the Rosomak (Wolverine), was originally designed to float, but during participation of Polish forces two new up armored variant that can't float were fielded, Rosomak M1 and Rosomak M1M, both better protected, and heavier. A currently developed Rosomak 2 also will not be capable to float, and will be better protected.

Let's look at US Strykers, after Iraq and Afghanistan experience it weight increase, the DVH modernization that increase vehicle protection, increase it weight above 20 tons, and makes Stryker unable to be transported by C-130.

And future IFV's? German SPz Puma allready weights more than 35 tons, US GCV program aims at IFV with weight of 40-50 tons in basic configuration and up to 60 tons with addon armor, and probably it aims also at IFV that will be also used as a platform for other vehicles.

Trends are clear, nobody really wants a lightly armored coffins.
 

Akim

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Russia/Ukraine have more advanced ERA designs, but these are only single hit protection messures, while their composite armors seems to be slightly less advanced, however the advantage of such design is less weight and vehicle smaller size.
Not quite so. War in Czeczenia the showed , that if tanks are correctly equipped ЕRА, then Т-72B and Т-80BV maintained 7-8 hits from RPG- 7, in the conditions of town fight,, besides М1А2 in Iraq, only 3-4! and by old shots. And there are some places in the stern of turrent, so they were easily struck from a large-calibre machine gun.
 

Bhadra

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Trends are clear, nobody really wants a lightly armored coffins.
Trends are clear, light or heavy, tank is a armour Coffin aginst multitude of Anti Tank weapons...... specially against tendom warheads
 

pmaitra

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Trends are clear, light or heavy, tank is a armour Coffin aginst multitude of Anti Tank weapons...... specially against tendom warheads
You mean tandem warheads? Please tell us more about tandem warheads.
 

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