Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

[methos]

In 30mm caliber penetration is limited and not enought, because modern requirements are no longer against old IFV as BMP-1-2, etc. Against IFV as Puma, Anders, Kurganets, to acieve penetration is not possible with 30mm but bigger caliber, 40-45mm is required.

That 30mm AP does no longer meet modern requirements is no secret.

Fact is that 30mm AP is of limited effectiveness against Puma, Anders, Kurganets, etc. These are not old BMP.

No. Anders and Kurganets are not protected against 30 mm APFSDS. Kurganets cannot achieve protection against 30 mm APFSDS with a weight of 25 tonnes. 30 mm APFSDS is currently the most common choice for newer vehicles. 40 mm Bofors needs 75% more space per round, 40 mm CTA still needs 50% more space per round. 30 mm APFSDS can penetrate the armour of nearly all currently deployed IFV. Just saying "it is a new generation, you cannot compare" does not matter, if there is no current technology which could achieve the claimed protection values.

U.S. amphibious vehicle (EFV) was designed to use 30 mm rounds. That the gun also could be using 40 mm supershot ammunition because of the gun design, is something which wasn't required by the U.S. Even though 40 mm supershot is less powerfull than 35 mm rounds.

 

[militarysta]

Methos - whould you be so kind and take a look about this thema:
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/land-forces/39363-tank-guns-ammunition-6.html
I post about ammo, and I need ideas - You ussaly have more ideas about tank ammo ;-)

 

[Damian]

Question, what is the configuration of Anders 120mm turret, is it unmanned ?

WPB Anders in WWO version with Polish made turret armed with RUAG CTG 120mm L50 smoothbore, have low profile manned turret.

Crew is placed in turret basket below turret race ring, simple as that.

 

[Akim]

This is a mistake. Automatic cannon is intended to deal against enemy armour, IFV, possibly tanks (especially side hull), etc, with use of AP munition, and against infantry and fortifications, in function of infantry support.

As 30mm AP is no longer effective and useful for it's intended role (as you also aknowledged), being no more than practical waste of ammunition capacity, and 30mm rounds have limited amount of explosive, therefore not effective to deal with infantry formations and fortifications, shift to increased caliber and telescopic munition is more than justified as it will overcome these problems.

Another mistake you made, ATGM has function of auxiliary armament and cannot serve as replacement in any way (none will agree with you).

IFV is not intended for a fight with to itself similar. Her basic task is delivery of infantry on a cutting edge and fight against aims dangerous for tanks. Caliber a 25-30 mm her is enough. And the more ammunition the better. Also important rate of fire of automatic weapons. It is not needed to do a IFV - in light tank.

 

[Damian]

No. Anders and Kurganets are not protected against 30 mm APFSDS.

Well Methos, it is hard to discuss about vehicles protection that are or non existing yet, or are only technology demonstrators.

WPB Anders is still only technology demonstrator, and there is a long way to prototype phase. Untill Polish Army will not present official WZTT that will later transform in to ZTT, OBRUM and Bumar will not do anything with WPB Anders, but when documents with requirements list will be presented, then design team will start work on prootypes, then there will be more tests, and in the end, the final product, will be much different.

I know that this might be not good comparision but great example here is MSBS-5,56 program, in fact the currently presented new polish assault rifle is technically speaking, not MSBS-5,56, but completely new construction, based on experience gained with the actuall MSBS-5,56 program technology demonstrators. So the final WPB Anders can weight even 50 tons if army and design team will see this weight increase as important to increase vehicle protection.

Same with Kurganets, in the end it might be much bigger and better protected veicle, the cost will be weight increase... or Russian army will sacrificie protection to preserve low weight.

 

[Austin]

T-72 Upgrade Options

Gur Khan attacks!: Второе дыхание «Ð£Ñ€Ð°Ð»Ð°»

 

[Austin]

T-72 Upgrade Options

Gur Khan attacks!: Второе дыхание «Ð£Ñ€Ð°Ð»Ð°»

 

[hest]

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Armata to start trials in 2013.
More than 2000 units to be produced by 2020.

 

[Austin]

I think all said and done Armata will be only ready for production by 2016 , Most likely they would replace the T-80 and T-72 which are not getting any upgrades.

Else where in an interview with CEO of MIC it is mentioned that the aim is to have 70 % commonality between Kurganets & Boomerang and modularity which should be good for long term logistics , Interview below

Interview with CEO of the Military-Industrial Company Dmitry Galkin.

On Boomerang , Tigr,Wolf

«Бумеранг» обеспечит России мировое лидерство в производстве колесной бронетехники

 

[Austin]

What is the commonality achieved between current BMP-3 and BTR-80/82 APC ?

Also it was mentioned that Kurganets will end up having 45/57 mm Gun which when compared to BMP-3 100 mm Gun is a downgrade but then I think the requirenments are not similar they are aiming for guided rounds in anti-aircraft role , so achieving a standardisation might be a priority over firepower.

 

[Damian]

Also it was mentioned that Kurganets will end up having 45/57 mm Gun which when compared to BMP-3 100 mm Gun is a downgrade but then I think the requirenments are not similar they are aiming for guided rounds in anti-aircraft role , so achieving a standardisation might be a priority over firepower.

45/57mm automatic cannon is not a downgrade compared to BMP-3 100mm gun, why?

These 45/57mm automatic cannons are high pressure, high velocity weapons, while 100mm gun on BMP-3 is a low pressure gun/launcher for HE rounds and GLATGM's.

So the decision to finally leave behind this wrong idea of complex, overcomplicated weapon system of BMP-3 is a good decision.

 

[Austin]

Its more of requirement then of need , In cold war BMP-3 100 mm Gun/Missile were suppose to also have the firepower to deal with tank specially with missile and hardened targets.

Now with Kurganets & Boomerang being in same wiight class i.e 25T they can afford to have commonality plus 45 mm gun with guided rounds gives a good compromise to deal with light/medium ground targets and Air Targets without going in for large caliber.

Ofcourse large caliber have their own downs ,they can carry lesser ammo compared to smaller caliber rounds.

Here is one potential 57 mm Gun with guided rounds we might see in future IFV

Официальный сайт ОАО КБточмаш им. А.Э. Нудельмана

 

[Damian]

Its more of requirement then of need , In cold war BMP-3 100 mm Gun/Missile were suppose to also have the firepower to deal with tank specially with missile and hardened targets.

100mm calliber GLATGM will have too small penetration values for it's HEAT warhead to deal with modern MBT firing at it within it's frontal arc. And hardened targets' can be eliminated by using smaller calliber automatic cannon. With higher volume of fire there is a big chance that You will put some rounds through bunker window for example.

Now with Kurganets & Boomerang being in same wiight class i.e 25T they can afford to have commonality plus 45 mm gun with guided rounds gives a good compromise to deal with light/medium ground targets and Air Targets without going in for large caliber.

Ofcourse large caliber have their own downs ,they can carry lesser ammo compared to smaller caliber rounds.

Here is one potential 57 mm Gun with guided rounds we might see in future IFV

Официальный сайт ОАО КБточмаш им. А.Э. Нудельмана

It is interesting concept, guided round for automatic cannon, although we will see if this will end somewhere, or will be cancelled due to costs.

 

[Akim]

It is interesting concept, guided round for automatic cannon, although we will see if this will end somewhere, or will be cancelled due to costs.

Will not use the caliber of 57-мм in Kurganets.
Here, that is 57-мм cannon of S- 60.

For her not tape feed, even if there will be magazine for 20 shots. Libra of every shell of 6-kg.

Count up, how many body-builders are necessary, to charge 120 shells. The size of IFV also not to allow to carry such instrument. a 45-mm cannon is possible. But, I in her to the not see necessity. Swedish, and South-Korean IFV was created exceptionally for a defensive. Britishers, only 100 the IFV modernize for 40-мм, other to get a new steady-state 30-мм cannon and ammunition .

 

[Damian]

Well yes Akim, You have right, even bigger automatic cannon can create problems with storing enough ammunition inside.

IMHO the only way to overcome this difficulty is create bigger and heavier turret with bustle where ammunition could be stored. But this is probably unacceptable option.

 

[Austin]

It is interesting concept, guided round for automatic cannon, although we will see if this will end somewhere, or will be cancelled due to costs.

Guided rounds are the future and it would be significantly much cheaper than guided missile and ofcourse you will end up using less ammo for eg say dealing with air targets compared to 30 mm rounds where you would end up firing a wall of lead to take out single targets.

I think the reason why 57 mm rounds is a good compromise between fire power and intelligence ammo with smart fuses that can be incorporated into these rounds.

 

[Damian]

Guided rounds are the future and it would be significantly much cheaper than guided missile and ofcourse you will end up using less ammo for eg say dealing with air targets compared to 30 mm rounds where you would end up firing a wall of lead to take out single targets.

I think the reason why 57 mm rounds is a good compromise between fire power and intelligence ammo with smart fuses that can be incorporated into these rounds.

1) Perhaps,
2) 57mm was probably choosen because Russians have a strong tradition in problems to minimize size of electronics. West long time ago was capable to put programmable fuze in 30mm calliber, and DARPA is working on guided small arms ammunition.

 

[hest]

Its more of requirement then of need , In cold war BMP-3 100 mm Gun/Missile were suppose to also have the firepower to deal with tank specially with missile and hardened targets.

Now with Kurganets & Boomerang being in same wiight class i.e 25T they can afford to have commonality plus 45 mm gun with guided rounds gives a good compromise to deal with light/medium ground targets and Air Targets without going in for large caliber.

Ofcourse large caliber have their own downs ,they can carry lesser ammo compared to smaller caliber rounds.

Here is one potential 57 mm Gun with guided rounds we might see in future IFV

Официальный сайт ОАО КБточмаш им. А.Э. Нудельмана

100 mm gun for BMP-3 was developed to fire fragmentary rounds and improve ability to deal with infantry and fortifications, because 30 mm rounds were not effective due to limited amount of explosive.

Missile had function of auxiliary armament, but main weapon to deal with armour are AP rounds, but these were not effective against new western IFV as Puma, etc. Superior effectiveness of 45 mm and 57 mm was justification to adopt them, and making 100mm rounds not so essential.

Yes, also round in 57mm caliber allow interesting options, to incorporate guidance system. Reportedly 57 mm will be adopted in future as new main caliber for air defense, unified with IFV, replacing current 30mm in that role.

 

[hest]

I think all said and done Armata will be only ready for production by 2016 , Most likely they would replace the T-80 and T-72 which are not getting any upgrades.

Else where in an interview with CEO of MIC it is mentioned that the aim is to have 70 % commonality between Kurganets & Boomerang and modularity which should be good for long term logistics , Interview below

Interview with CEO of the Military-Industrial Company Dmitry Galkin.

On Boomerang , Tigr,Wolf

«Бумеранг» обеспечит России мировое лидерство в производстве колесной бронетехники

Currently UVZ is undergoing modernisation and preparing production lines to increase output capacity and adopt modern production methods. Armata will start trials in 2013 and finish them next year or by 2015... and will start mass production afterwards. About 400 tanks per year (5 years, 2015-2020) should be fully possible.

Armata will be procured in about 2300 units, which will form the basis of brigades of full readiness. Rest T-80, T-90 and modernised T-72 in several versions will remain in second line, or at mobilisation reserve.

Boomerang and Kurganets, yes, indeed they will have commonalty, (indeed hull design on both looks similar), and it was requirement to save on costs and improve logistics, etc.

About BMP-3 and BTR-80, they weren't intended and I doubt there is any commonalty at all.

 

[Akim]

1) Perhaps,
2) 57mm was probably choosen because Russians have a strong tradition in problems to minimize size of electronics. West long time ago was capable to put programmable fuze in 30mm calliber, and DARPA is working on guided small arms ammunition.

57-мм nobody yet chose and will not choose. And electronics can put and in a 14,5 mm of bullet. The simply ordinary people it seems to than anymore caliber and possibility of defeat - so much the better . Those who manage now an army and in Russia and in Ukraine she was seen "only on pictures".