Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

If Tanks have to evolve, which path they should follow?

  • Light Vehicles-Best for mobility

    Votes: 25 7.3%
  • Heavy Armour-Can take heavy punishment.

    Votes: 57 16.7%
  • Modular Design-Allowing dynamic adaptions.

    Votes: 198 58.1%
  • Universal Platform-Best for logistics.

    Votes: 61 17.9%

  • Total voters
    341

Damian

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You should remember that ability to use such remotedly operated weapon (from within tank) was present in Soviet tanks for 30 years already (T-80UD and T-90) while Abrams lacked this ability until very recently (last two years)
It is not truth, M1 from the begginign have CWS (Commander Weapon Station) that allowed commander to use his M2HB.


Maybe first read something about tanks before You wrote another untruth? ;)

As a side note, the CWS recently recived an upgrade with thermal sight, new day sight and full stabilization, and is now designated as SCWS (Stabilized Commander Weapon Station) on M1A1's.

In addition, system they use, CROWS-2 (Kongsberg, Norway) is more bulky and heavier:
You completely not understand the difference between powered cupola with remotly controlled machine gun and remote weapon station do You?
 
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Damian

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To explain more for our friend from Moscow.



Here on the left is M1/M1A1 CWS with ability to hav remotly controlled machine gun. On the right is M1A2 with ICWS cupola, here there is no remotly controlled machine gun, but visibility for commander is improved by use of bigger and more vision blocks.

The upgrades for both are SCWS in M1A1, that I mentioned recived stabilization and thermal sight, it can be visible below.



While the M1A2's recived CROWS-2 RWS.



I hope that everything is clear now?

Nice, howewer this weapon was cancelled some years ago without reaching prototype stage (only individual elements were tested).
You are again wrong. Nowhere was said that XM1111 was cancelled. You confuse it with several other projects for guided munitions like TERM, X-Rod or STAFF.

But this is nothing strange, Russian language sources about American tanks are rather weak, sometimes also silly.
 

hest

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It is not truth, M1 from the begginign have CWS (Commander Weapon Station) that allowed commander to use his M2HB.

Maybe first read something about tanks before You wrote another untruth? ;)
Yes, and this ability was also present in much older T-64, howewer I referred to fully stabilised weapon as in T-80UD.

As a side note, the CWS recently recived an upgrade with thermal sight, new day sight and full stabilization, and is now designated as SCWS (Stabilized Commander Weapon Station) on M1A1's.
Indeed, but only now, previously they lacked the ability which had Soviet tanks 30 years ago.

You completely not understand the difference between powered cupola with remotly controlled machine gun and remote weapon station do You?
I understand. But I fail to see need to have additional systems attached to weapon station making it heavier and more vulnerable when you can have it throught sight as in T-80UD, T-90.
 

hest

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You are again wrong. Nowhere was said that XM1111 was cancelled. You confuse it with several other projects for guided munitions like TERM, X-Rod or STAFF.

But this is nothing strange, Russian language sources about American tanks are rather weak, sometimes also silly.
No hate intended, I am for civilised discussion :rolleyes:

Where I am talking about Russian sources ??
Here you have official source from quick search
MCHUGH: THE ARMY 'NO LONGER NEEDS' MID-RANGE MUNITION PROGRAM
394 words
19 July 2010
Inside the Army
IARMY
Vol. 22, No. 28
English
Copyright © 2010, Inside Washington Publishers. All rights reserved. Also available in print and online as part of InsideDefense.com.
The Army has officially terminated the Mid-Range Munition program, which lost its fiscal year 2010 funding following the cancellation of the manned ground vehicle portion of the Future Combat Systems program.
In a June 4 letter to Senate Armed Services Committee chairman Carl Levin (D-MI), Army Secretary John McHugh wrote that "with the termination of the Future Combat Systems manned ground vehicle, the Army no longer needs this munition.
"This decision is the result of careful deliberation of our priorities for all requirements as the Army strives to balance its modernization effort with the available funds," wrote McHugh.
According to the letter, the Army was directed by the conference report on the fiscal year 2010 Defense Authorization Act to file a report explaining the service's future plans for the precision tank round program.
As previously reported by Inside the Army, the MRM program lost its FY-10 funding in 2009 as a result of Defense Secretary Robert Gates' decision to halt the MGV component of FCS. That decision eliminated formal requirements for several FCS complementary programs, dropping their funding (ITA, Sept. 21, 2009, p1).
A June 23, 2009, acquisition decision memorandum from Pentagon acquisition executive Ashton Carter subsequently directed the Army to identify the effects of the FCS changes, and officials began terminating the MRM program.
Officials from prime contractor Raytheon, however, remained hopeful that the program could be salvaged through "bridge" supplemental funding until a new formal requirement for beyond-line-of-sight capability could be established.
In an official statement provided to ITA on July 15 by a spokeswoman, Raytheon said "We were disappointed by the decision to cancel the Mid-Range Munition program.
"Raytheon is the lead developer of Beyond-Line-of-Sight (BLOS) technology and had demonstrated a cost-effective solution which met the Army's stated requirements," according to the statement. "We stand ready to continue development of this critical capability should the customer decide to reinstate the requirement."
After Gates' FCS announcement, the MRM program office had directed Raytheon to slow the program down and curtail spending. Following program termination, additional steps were taken to ensure the Army did not incur any liabilities, and that the program be completed with existing funding that would run out in 2009 (ITA, Sept. 21, 2009, p12). -- Debbie Siegelbaum
 

Damian

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Yes, and this ability was also present in much older T-64, howewer I referred to fully stabilised weapon as in T-80UD.
No, You were saying that M1 series only just recently recived ability to have commander weapon fired from inside of vehicle.

You should remember that ability to use such remotedly operated weapon (from within tank) was present in Soviet tanks for 30 years already (T-80UD and T-90) while Abrams lacked this ability until very recently (last two years)
This is what You said.

Indeed, but only now, previously they lacked the ability which had Soviet tanks 30 years ago.
What ability they lacked? Americans much longer used powered cupolas with ability to fire machine guns from inside than Soviets did.

As I understand it is typical lack of knowledge about foreing weapon systems?

For Your informations Americans were also first to design autoloader for T20 medium tanks series of prototypes, it was interesting high capacity design, later I will show You drawing or photo.

Also carousel autoloader similiar to that used in T-72 was initially designed by Americans in 1950's.

I understand. But I fail to see need to have additional systems attached to weapon station making it heavier and more vulnerable when you can have it throught sight as in T-80UD, T-90.
RWS is not only stabilized, but have also very good optics better than in any powered cupola, laser range finder, the whole FCS.

When You will try to find a good range with powered cupola, TC in a tank with RWS just use laser range finder and he can much more quickly engage targets.

Not to mention that cupola is not very ergonomic, RWS is much easier to use.

But why I'am not surprised that You do not understand...

No hate intended, I am for civilised discussion

Where I am talking about Russian sources ??
Here you have official source from quick search
MCHUGH: THE ARMY 'NO LONGER NEEDS' MID-RANGE MUNITION PROGRAM
394 words
19 July 2010
Inside the Army
IARMY
Vol. 22, No. 28
English
Copyright © 2010, Inside Washington Publishers. All rights reserved. Also available in print and online as part of InsideDefense.com.
The Army has officially terminated the Mid-Range Munition program, which lost its fiscal year 2010 funding following the cancellation of the manned ground vehicle portion of the Future Combat Systems program.
In a June 4 letter to Senate Armed Services Committee chairman Carl Levin (D-MI), Army Secretary John McHugh wrote that "with the termination of the Future Combat Systems manned ground vehicle, the Army no longer needs this munition.
"This decision is the result of careful deliberation of our priorities for all requirements as the Army strives to balance its modernization effort with the available funds," wrote McHugh.
According to the letter, the Army was directed by the conference report on the fiscal year 2010 Defense Authorization Act to file a report explaining the service's future plans for the precision tank round program.
As previously reported by Inside the Army, the MRM program lost its FY-10 funding in 2009 as a result of Defense Secretary Robert Gates' decision to halt the MGV component of FCS. That decision eliminated formal requirements for several FCS complementary programs, dropping their funding (ITA, Sept. 21, 2009, p1).
A June 23, 2009, acquisition decision memorandum from Pentagon acquisition executive Ashton Carter subsequently directed the Army to identify the effects of the FCS changes, and officials began terminating the MRM program.
Officials from prime contractor Raytheon, however, remained hopeful that the program could be salvaged through "bridge" supplemental funding until a new formal requirement for beyond-line-of-sight capability could be established.
In an official statement provided to ITA on July 15 by a spokeswoman, Raytheon said "We were disappointed by the decision to cancel the Mid-Range Munition program.
"Raytheon is the lead developer of Beyond-Line-of-Sight (BLOS) technology and had demonstrated a cost-effective solution which met the Army's stated requirements," according to the statement. "We stand ready to continue development of this critical capability should the customer decide to reinstate the requirement."
After Gates' FCS announcement, the MRM program office had directed Raytheon to slow the program down and curtail spending. Following program termination, additional steps were taken to ensure the Army did not incur any liabilities, and that the program be completed with existing funding that would run out in 2009 (ITA, Sept. 21, 2009, p12). -- Debbie Siegelbaum
Source accepted. However it is strange because I did not seen such documents on DTIC site when I was researching MRM program.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yeah I found some documents on DTIC. Both MRM-KE and MRM-CE accomplished tests, however it seems that Gates made incredible mistake. Cancellation of MRM program was not resonable, because ammo passed all tests with excellent results, Gates just terminated MRM program because he terminated FCS program.

Good that at least AKE and AMP programs survived.
 
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Damian

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A complex "Dozh" (Rain) did not pass even the field tests and was to reject as unpromising.
It is interesting information.

However I'am still surprised with an IDEA of APS that generating rather big fragments can damage for example gun barrel or it's thermal shroud.
 

Akim

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For Your informations Americans were also first to design autoloader for T20 medium tanks series of prototypes, it was interesting high capacity design, later I will show You drawing or photo..
If to be honest, then the first automat of loading was worked out by Frenches, yet before war, and in Soviet Union - inculcated the first the mechanism of loading. He has quite another principle.
 

hest

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A complex "Dozh" (Rain) did not pass even the field tests and was to reject as unpromising.
Yes, but it was further developed into what is today as Zaslon (screen). Same with Шатёр (Shater) predecessor of Arena and other developements from the 70s..
 

Damian

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If to be honest, then the first automat of loading was worked out by Frenches, yet before war, and in Soviet Union - inculcated the first the mechanism of loading. He has quite another principle.
Concept is something else than actually working mechanism.

Americans developed the first complete tank with such system in WWII. T22E1.



And a carousel autoloader developed in 1950's, T-72/T-90 autoloader seems to be very similiar in general design.



Germans also started to experiment with autoloaders at the end of WWII.
 

hest

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No, You were saying that M1 series only just recently recived ability to have commander weapon fired from inside of vehicle.
This is what You said.
I said, such systems (in reference to CROWS), which are remotedly operated and with full stabilisation. Sorry if missunderstood.

What ability they lacked? Americans much longer used powered cupolas with ability to fire machine guns from inside than Soviets did.

As I understand it is typical lack of knowledge about foreing weapon systems?
Let me explain. Since 80s Soviet tanks (T-80UD, later T-90) had fully stabilised remotedly operated weapons system.

M1A1 machine gun had limited capability and no stabilisation. M1A2's could not be operated from inside at all. Both aquired the capability of T-80, T-90 only recently.

For Your informations Americans were also first to design autoloader for T20 medium tanks series of prototypes, it was interesting high capacity design, later I will show You drawing or photo.

Also carousel autoloader similiar to that used in T-72 was initially designed by Americans in 1950's.
Why are you telling me this ?? Such developements were carried in many countries, difference lies in implementation in service.

RWS is not only stabilized, but have also very good optics better than in any powered cupola, laser range finder, the whole FCS.

When You will try to find a good range with powered cupola, TC in a tank with RWS just use laser range finder and he can much more quickly engage targets.

Not to mention that cupola is not very ergonomic, RWS is much easier to use.

But why I'am not surprised that You do not understand...
But it is redundancy in systems which makes it more expensive, heavy and vulnerable. There is no need for additional systems when it can be operated by commander from available sight. In modern Leopard there is also ability to operate secondary armament from panoramic sight.


Yeah I found some documents on DTIC. Both MRM-KE and MRM-CE accomplished tests, however it seems that Gates made incredible mistake. Cancellation of MRM program was not resonable, because ammo passed all tests with excellent results, Gates just terminated MRM program because he terminated FCS program.
They tested only individual systems (for example dummy "missile" to test guidance system). They never actually made a working example.

Good that at least AKE and AMP programs survived.
New M829A4 ??
 

Akim

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And french tank (1937) with AL and by a "swinging turret"
 

Damian

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I said, such systems (in reference to CROWS), which are remotedly operated and with full stabilisation. Sorry if missunderstood.
Let me explain. Since 80s Soviet tanks (T-80UD, later T-90) had fully stabilised remotedly operated weapons system.

M1A1 machine gun had limited capability and no stabilisation. M1A2's could not be operated from inside at all. Both aquired the capability of T-80, T-90 only recently.
CWS was not stabilized yes, but it was good in what it was designed for. Not to mention that they were actually two generations of CWS in 1980's, the simple and somewhat problematic CWS in M1, and a much more improved and better CWS in M1A1.

As for stabilization, You need to understand the context, Dr. Phillip Lett from the beggining of the M1 program could use many advanced features developed for MBT-70 and XM803. For example CIV for TC with remotely controlled machine gun, something similiar in concept to CITV used in T-90MS. But the congress said no.

Congress demanded to develop tank with as smallest costs as possible, it was a success but designers needed to choose a Block improvement approach. This means that during vehicle production and service, they needed to add each improvement as increment for each new Block. The fact is that original plan said that Block II or M1A1 would be more or less in the same configuration as today M1A2, but in 1985, however there were delays in development of some components like CITV, so the originally planned Block II variant today known as M1A2 appeard not in 1985 but in 1992, 7 years after planned induction.

This is an example how economic reasons and politicians can kill a good program... fortunetly M1 program was not killed but only delayed in progress.

Why are you telling me this ?? Such developements were carried in many countries, difference lies in implementation in service.
Not exactly. The American developments were more or less ready to be inducted in to service, just like autoloaders. However Armed Forces were not sure what they really want, because both human loader and autoloader have their strong and weak sides.

There was a strong change that somewhere in WWII Americans would start to manufacture tank with autoloader, however decision was made to concentrate all efforts on manufacturing as many M4 tanks as possible and after the war pursue new designs. Sad but understandable.

But it is redundancy in systems which makes it more expensive, heavy and vulnerable. There is no need for additional systems when it can be operated by commander from available sight. In modern Leopard there is also ability to operate secondary armament from panoramic sight.
AFAIK FLW series on upgraded Leopard 2 tanks, at least the German ones, cannot be operated by use of PERI. However I might be wrong.

So currently only Russians and Ukrainians use RWS systems directly connected to TC panoramic sight.

They tested only individual systems (for example dummy "missile" to test guidance system). They never actually made a working example.
AFAIK Rytheon was near end of testing the whole system.

New M829A4 ??
Yes AKE = M829A4, AMP = new multipurpose programmable ammunition to replace M830, M830A1, M908 and M1208.

No Akim, this is AMX-50 from 1950's.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMX-50
 

Damian

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T-72B for modernisation (to T-72BA/T-72B2):
We will see if T-72B2 will go forward, hopefully yes because it is definetly interesting modernization.

UVZ has a decent load with modernisations and export orders, unlike Western countries. Russia is 1st in MBT export market.
Most countries do not have deep enough pocket to purchase tanks costing above 5mln USD, Russians offer T-90S for 2,5mln USD IRCC, so nothing strange that T-72 and T-90 series are more popular.
 

Akim

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We will see if T-72B2 will go forward, hopefully yes because it is definetly interesting modernization.



Most countries do not have deep enough pocket to purchase tanks costing above 5mln USD, Russians offer T-90S for 2,5mln USD IRCC, so nothing strange that T-72 and T-90 series are more popular.
Cost T-90S - 118 mln rub = 4,2 mln $
 

Damian

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Cost T-90S - 118 mln rub = 4,2 mln $
Thanks Akim. But still T-90S is just cheaper.

However what is really funny, the biggest increase in cost for NATO MBT's comes from electronics.

For example the original M1 costed below 1mln USD in 1980, while the newest M1A2SEP costs in 2012 approx 8.58mln USD (with inflation adjustment).

So for most nations it is obvious solution to purchase something that is cheaper. Not to mention political and logistical reasons.
 
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