LOC, LAC & IB skirmishs

[tigerhill]

What kunal sir has said, does make sense
It may be possible that the said incident happened a few days back
We all read reports of a scuffle with stone pelting
It maybe possible that both sides opened fire in that incident, which led to the (I hope not) injury ad casualty on ourside
Something similar may have happened to the chinese side

That is why they agreed immediately to a flag meeting
And china itself distanced itself from the scuffle to prevent escalation

while the indians on their side, have warned for more similar scufffles

what say senior members?

 

[thethinker]

Sayvun seeens of Aiindyaaa

This is hilarious.

CCP mouthpiece puts up a YouTube video while YouTube is banned in China. :

 

[ezsasa]

Even if a skirmish breaks out...

I wish full spectrum of weapons not used so far are validated in action.

If I am not wrong Su-30, T90, mig-29, T72, jaguar have not seen action so far.

 

[NeXoft007]

Please find the incomplete list of Pak Army casualties in LoC so far:

These are only where we know name/rank. Maybe someone can share this with ISPR

@NeXoft007 @Bornubus @hammer head

*Raja Muhammad Tehzeem was killed at Chakothi Sector
*Nasarullah Khan was killed at Neza Peer Sector.
*You also forgot to mention Zafar Iqbal Saki killed on 22nd April, 2017. He was SSG 7 Lite Commando.

 

[thethinker]

Ladakh clash: China may make more cross-border intrusions, warn agencies; troops asked to be alert

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/...pla-lac-chusul-doklam-standoff/1/1027629.html

Indian and Chinese troops on Tuesday morning had a scuffle at the Pangong Tso Lake and later even threw stones at each other.

Chinese Army may try to carry out intrusions similar to the one that took place in the north bank of Pangong lake in Ladakh, Indian agencies said. The agencies have also stated that clashes are likely to take place in the Himachal, Sikkim and Arunachal sectors. Lipulekh Pass and Barahoti in Himachal, Uttarakhand may also face a similar face-off, the agencies added.

Following the reports, troops have been asked to remain alert and thwart any incursions by the Chinese Army. The government has asked the security agencies to not to be provoked and deal with the situation with calmness to prevent any escalation of the situation.

This assessment comes even as a prescheduled Border Personnel Meeting (BPM) was held between India and China in Jammu and Kashmir's Chushul area in Leh district on Wednesday. Chusul is one of the five designated meeting points for troops on ground on either side to sort out local differences.

In the next 3-4 days, more local level meetings are likely to take place between the two sides at different locations on the Line of Actual Control (LaC).

THE SCUFFLE AT PANGONG LAKE

Indian and Chinese troops on Tuesday morning had a scuffle at the Pangong Tso Lake and later even threw stones at each other.

The border stand-off took place on the occasion of Indian Independence Day when as practice Border Personnel Meetings (BPM) take place at five points across Line of Actual Control (LAC) and sweets are exchanged between Indian and Chinese forces.

Scuffles are known to happen between troops along the border but throwing stones at each other is rare and unprecedented. Tuesday's scuffle at Pangong and stone throwing incident has been viewed seriously by both sides.

Sources aware of the Border Personnel Meeting at Chusul said both sides also discussed to put behind the Ladakh clash incident.

The incident came at a time when both nations have been facing a continued stand-off at the India-Bhutan-China tri-junction in Doka La (Doklam).

WHAT EXACTLY HAPPENED

Indian border guards have said they frustrated an attempt by Chinese soldiers to enter the Indian territory in two areas - Finger Four and Finger Five - twice between 6 am and 9 am on Tuesday but on both occasions, their attempts were thwarted by alert Indian troops.

After Chinese troopers found their path blocked by Indian soldiers who formed a human chain, they began hurling stones, prompting a swift retaliation by Indian border guards.

Personnel from both sides received minor injuries and the situation was brought under control after the customary banner drill under which both sides hold banners before stepping back to their respective positions.

Chinese troops had managed to enter upto Finger Four area in the region from where they were sent back, news agency PTI reported. This area has been a bone of contention between India and China as both claim it to be a part of their territory.

Some of the Chinese soldiers carried iron rods and stones, and in the melee there were minor injuries on both sides, Reuters quoting sources in New Delhi said.

CHINA 'NOT AWARE' OF SOLDIERS ENTERING INDIAN TERRITORY

China however said it is not aware of the reports of People's Liberation Army (PLA) soldiers entering the Indian territory along the banks of the Pangong lake in Ladakh, as alleged by India.

Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesperson Hu Chunying said, "I am not aware of the information." She said the PLA troops always patrol along the Chinese side of the Line of Actual Control (LAC).

"The Chinese side is committed to peace and tranquillity of the China-India border," she said. "We urge the Indian side abide by the LAC and relevant conventions between the two sides."

 

[Mikesingh]

This is hilarious.

CCP mouthpiece puts up a YouTube video while YouTube is banned in China. :

I hope they read the comments below the video too!!

 

[A chauhan]

Is this a correct analysis, please watch and comment ! @Kunal Biswas sir & all others..

From the above video link :-

"Let us assume China decides to attack India on all fronts of land, air, sea, cyber so these are the scenarios which will happen if you think realistically:

1. Land attack: China has a army of 2.3 million soldiers and India of 1.3 million. In case of wars the advantage always goes to defensive side in ratio of 1:3(one soldier for defense is equal to 3 in offense) and this ratio becomes 1:5 in hilly and mountainous terrains. So advantage India.

2. Sea attack: To launch a massive sea attack on India which has 7 major sea ports and many minor sea ports is nearly impossible as it will require more than 5 carrier battle groups if we say the least. Considering China has only 1 operational carrier battle group it’s impossible even with huge submarine force to block every Indian port.Second thing which people should note is that nearly 80–90% of Chinese trade happens through Indian ocean. To attack China we don’t have to attack their naval ports we just have to block supplies to China which will cripple it’s economy and we can do that because Indian navy is considered king of Indian ocean. So advantage India.

3. Air power: In battle of air forces numbers matter little as experience of pilots and technology they posses matters in 21st century. We already have fought 2 major air force wars with Pakistan (1965,1971) and our pilots every year practice with best pilots around the globe which Chinese lack. So as long as Sukhoi-30Mki is there with India worry not, sleep tight. Even a F-22 can’t penetrate Indian skies and leave alone the Chinese planes( remember I am talking of defense only). So again advantage India.

4. CYBER/SPACE WARFARE: If one sees the ranking of Chinese hackers compared to Indian hackers they rank pretty high but when these rankings are made they only consider the people who operate from Chinese or Indian soil.

If you consider the most advanced nations and see the hackers who work for them, you will find considerable number of Indian hackers raked among the top in the world. So if one side launches a hack attack on other it will not be limited to Indian hackers serving from Indian soil, it will be a all out war which is highly dangerous. Next thing i want you to know is military installations are nearly impossible to hack even for genius coders as their security codes changes at very very fast pace. So in this field it’s a tie as no one can say we have edge over other.

Please stop considering Indian army weak in front of China because of low numbers. It’s not the numbers that win you the war, strategy wins it and morale support of the population motives our men to fight to save our land from invaders.

In 1962 when we lost to China that time troop ratio was in favour of China 8:1 still our brave soldiers did not surrender because we Indians believe better to die than face shame.

In 1967 there was a standoff between India and China where India defeated Chinese troops (300 Chinese soldiers were killed and we lost 75 brave hearts). So when Chinese media and ministry asks India to remember 1962,They themselves should remember 1967.In Indian ocean our spy satellite,P-8i Poseidon and naval ships have tracked down 13 Chinese ships in last 2 months(these are figures of government real numbers are not shown due to secrecy) which shows how capable we are to track these ships and should rest any doubt on our capabilities in mind of every doubting Indian."

 

[indus]

Even if a skirmish breaks out...

I wish full spectrum of weapons not used so far are validated in action.

If I am not wrong Su-30, T90, mig-29, T72, jaguar have not seen action so far.

The weapons u have listed are probably not used in a skirmish. Su 30 & Migs will be used recon before any hot action takes place. But T90, T 72 s mean real tank battle which ideally should be fought inside Tibet. Jags are also good for A2G targeting, so we are looking at a full scale war not a skirmish.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

The news of ITBP as well as PLA casualty from darchula seems to be fake ..

Carry on ..

=====================

MIG-29 saw action during Kargil war when they locked on PAF-F-16s and T-72M1 at Srilanka where few of them blew up by RPG & IEDs ..

don't see any news on social media

Shots fired
Warning or direct ?
What is KIA.

Sent from my ASUS_Z00LD using Tapatalk

I hope that's paki propaganda, but if news is true then that means they just crossed limits

market players got such news first , but stock market still high....

What kunal sir has said, does make sense
It may be possible that the said incident happened a few days back
We all read reports of a scuffle with stone pelting
It maybe possible that both sides opened fire in that incident, which led to the (I hope not) injury ad casualty on ourside
Something similar may have happened to the chinese side

That is why they agreed immediately to a flag meeting
And china itself distanced itself from the scuffle to prevent escalation

while the indians on their side, have warned for more similar scufffles

what say senior members?

If I am not wrong Su-30, T90, mig-29, T72, jaguar have not seen action so far.

 

[Hiranyaksha]

The news of ITBP as well as PLA casualty from darchula seems to be fake ..

Carry on ..

=====================

MIG-29 saw action during Kargil war when they locked on PAF-F-16s and T-72M1 at Srilanka where few of them blew up by RPG & IEDs ..

Phew ! Bach gaye nahi toh chini khatam ho jati.

 

[tarunraju]

This is design to brainwash western citizens specially young ..

I don't think western citizens are degenerate enough to watch Chinese vlogs. They're dull, unimaginative, unfunny, and reek of a fundamental lack of creativity that stems from a totalitarian regime with information-control.

In other news, Indian expats in Australia are going to answer classless Chinese "Bentley" protests outside Indian Embassy, with "Swadeshi" protests outside PRC embassy, using Mahindra XUV500s and TATA Xenons (which are sold in Australia).

Xi Jaundice knows this is a psy-war he is losing.

 

[mayfair]

I wonder if Indian expats can use autos and rickshaws as well..

 

[tarunraju]

I wonder if Indian expats can use autos and rickshaws as well..

I couldn't see any in my last trip to Brisbane. I spotted quite a few XUV500s in the city and Xenons on my roadtrip Cairns. Mahindra roped in Matthew Hayden as brand ambassador there.

 

[Mikesingh]

Is this a correct analysis, please watch and comment ! @Kunal Biswas sir & all others..

From the above video link :-

"Let us assume China decides to attack India on all fronts of land, air, sea, cyber so these are the scenarios which will happen if you think realistically:

1. Land attack: China has a army of 2.3 million soldiers and India of 1.3 million. In case of wars the advantage always goes to defensive side in ratio of 1:3(one soldier for defense is equal to 3 in offense) and this ratio becomes 1:5 in hilly and mountainous terrains. So advantage India.

2. Sea attack: To launch a massive sea attack on India which has 7 major sea ports and many minor sea ports is nearly impossible as it will require more than 5 carrier battle groups if we say the least. Considering China has only 1 operational carrier battle group it’s impossible even with huge submarine force to block every Indian port.Second thing which people should note is that nearly 80–90% of Chinese trade happens through Indian ocean. To attack China we don’t have to attack their naval ports we just have to block supplies to China which will cripple it’s economy and we can do that because Indian navy is considered king of Indian ocean. So advantage India.

3. Air power: In battle of air forces numbers matter little as experience of pilots and technology they posses matters in 21st century. We already have fought 2 major air force wars with Pakistan (1965,1971) and our pilots every year practice with best pilots around the globe which Chinese lack. So as long as Sukhoi-30Mki is there with India worry not, sleep tight. Even a F-22 can’t penetrate Indian skies and leave alone the Chinese planes( remember I am talking of defense only). So again advantage India.

4. CYBER/SPACE WARFARE: If one sees the ranking of Chinese hackers compared to Indian hackers they rank pretty high but when these rankings are made they only consider the people who operate from Chinese or Indian soil.

If you consider the most advanced nations and see the hackers who work for them, you will find considerable number of Indian hackers raked among the top in the world. So if one side launches a hack attack on other it will not be limited to Indian hackers serving from Indian soil, it will be a all out war which is highly dangerous. Next thing i want you to know is military installations are nearly impossible to hack even for genius coders as their security codes changes at very very fast pace. So in this field it’s a tie as no one can say we have edge over other.

Please stop considering Indian army weak in front of China because of low numbers. It’s not the numbers that win you the war, strategy wins it and morale support of the population motives our men to fight to save our land from invaders.

In 1962 when we lost to China that time troop ratio was in favour of China 8:1 still our brave soldiers did not surrender because we Indians believe better to die than face shame.

In 1967 there was a standoff between India and China where India defeated Chinese troops (300 Chinese soldiers were killed and we lost 75 brave hearts). So when Chinese media and ministry asks India to remember 1962,They themselves should remember 1967.In Indian ocean our spy satellite,P-8i Poseidon and naval ships have tracked down 13 Chinese ships in last 2 months(these are figures of government real numbers are not shown due to secrecy) which shows how capable we are to track these ships and should rest any doubt on our capabilities in mind of every doubting Indian."

Correct except that in mountainous terrain as obtaining in the high altitude Chumbi Valley area, the PLA would need a combat ratio of 1:9 for attacking Indian positions. We have three divisions in the area. They would need a minimum of 25-27 divisions to attack and capture our positions!! That's impossible as the area does not allow for deploying more than a division due to the terrain, lack of roads and the massive logistics required to support such an offensive.

For example, a division needs approx 600 tons of supplies EVERY DAY which include water, food, ammo, spares etc to maintain itself. They would need a main logistics base and a number of forward logistics bases to dump these supplies. Even a forward logistics base would need an area of about 5 to 6 Sq km which would be extremely difficult to establish in such mountainous terrain. These bases would be always under our air and ground attacks thereby destroying their vital supply lines.

And without supplies they're as dead as dodos after the initial few days as the troops would generally be self contained for about three days.

I would also like to add that the threat to the Siliguri corridor from the Chumbi Valley is non existent due to the reasons brought out above. The PLA would need to construct a 50km long road along the mountains to the plains which is impossible, though some armchair specialists do fear that the North East would be cut off by the PLA. Nothing could be more nonsensical than this. Do note that constructing such a road would take more than a month and thus would be continually interdicted from the air as well ground forces. Thus it's a no go for the PLA. Unless they want to be destroyed piecemeal.

To cut a long story short, the PLA is incapable of even a skirmish let alone launching an all out offensive in the Dhoklam area or even in other border areas. The Himalayas will be a nightmare for the attackers. Their propaganda is just so much hot air which can be seen from the incident of them starting to now throw stones at us due to their utter frustration!

 

[Flame Thrower]

Is this a correct analysis, please watch and comment ! @Kunal Biswas sir & all others..

From the above video link :-

"Let us assume China decides to attack India on all fronts of land, air, sea, cyber so these are the scenarios which will happen if you think realistically:

1. Land attack: China has a army of 2.3 million soldiers and India of 1.3 million. In case of wars the advantage always goes to defensive side in ratio of 1:3(one soldier for defense is equal to 3 in offense) and this ratio becomes 1:5 in hilly and mountainous terrains. So advantage India.

2. Sea attack: To launch a massive sea attack on India which has 7 major sea ports and many minor sea ports is nearly impossible as it will require more than 5 carrier battle groups if we say the least. Considering China has only 1 operational carrier battle group it’s impossible even with huge submarine force to block every Indian port.Second thing which people should note is that nearly 80–90% of Chinese trade happens through Indian ocean. To attack China we don’t have to attack their naval ports we just have to block supplies to China which will cripple it’s economy and we can do that because Indian navy is considered king of Indian ocean. So advantage India.

3. Air power: In battle of air forces numbers matter little as experience of pilots and technology they posses matters in 21st century. We already have fought 2 major air force wars with Pakistan (1965,1971) and our pilots every year practice with best pilots around the globe which Chinese lack. So as long as Sukhoi-30Mki is there with India worry not, sleep tight. Even a F-22 can’t penetrate Indian skies and leave alone the Chinese planes( remember I am talking of defense only). So again advantage India.

4. CYBER/SPACE WARFARE: If one sees the ranking of Chinese hackers compared to Indian hackers they rank pretty high but when these rankings are made they only consider the people who operate from Chinese or Indian soil.

If you consider the most advanced nations and see the hackers who work for them, you will find considerable number of Indian hackers raked among the top in the world. So if one side launches a hack attack on other it will not be limited to Indian hackers serving from Indian soil, it will be a all out war which is highly dangerous. Next thing i want you to know is military installations are nearly impossible to hack even for genius coders as their security codes changes at very very fast pace. So in this field it’s a tie as no one can say we have edge over other.

Please stop considering Indian army weak in front of China because of low numbers. It’s not the numbers that win you the war, strategy wins it and morale support of the population motives our men to fight to save our land from invaders.

In 1962 when we lost to China that time troop ratio was in favour of China 8:1 still our brave soldiers did not surrender because we Indians believe better to die than face shame.

In 1967 there was a standoff between India and China where India defeated Chinese troops (300 Chinese soldiers were killed and we lost 75 brave hearts). So when Chinese media and ministry asks India to remember 1962,They themselves should remember 1967.In Indian ocean our spy satellite,P-8i Poseidon and naval ships have tracked down 13 Chinese ships in last 2 months(these are figures of government real numbers are not shown due to secrecy) which shows how capable we are to track these ships and should rest any doubt on our capabilities in mind of every doubting Indian."

My dear friend, frankly speaking this analysis is pure bullshit. It is very hard to find such a pure shit unless you're looking in PDF.

Wars are not fought based on numbers alone, they are fought with men, materials and their doctrine.

1. Land (and Air) Warfare: It comes to 1:9 ratio in the mountains warfare i.e 9 times of attacking troops are required to capture the defenders base. Logistics play very crucial role. Go few pages back and read @Mikesingh sir's post.

Though 1:9 number is quite popular in mountain warfare.(Drifting into Air battle) After PGMs, I don't think that 1:9 is required. When we narrow down to Doka La conflict, IAF taking off from near Sea level has huge upper hand against PLAAF taking off from almost 4000 mts high in Tibet. With almost 15 military airbases, we have definite upper hand in air battle, while China has only 4 military bases( it also includes landing strips). Let's not get into weapons, training and tactics of both airforces as IAF is way ahead of PLAAF. I believe that we can have air supremacy in a matter of 3 - 5 days. Now bear in mind that PLAAF can't bring it's full force to Tibet as USN is lurking around Korean Peninsula and PLAAF neither have infra not capability to bring it's entire force to Tibet and maintain it for two weeks of air warfare.

Sea Warfare: I hope you've heard of Malacca straights. Where even the stealthiest subs will be caught due to shallow waters ( thought passage is deep enough for huge container ships, but not enough to hide a sub). If IN decides to block Malacca with a couple of Kolkata class destroyers, Talwaar class firgates supported by Kamota class ASW, A squadron Flankers in Andaman and couple of Poseidons. Add Vikramaditya to picture and PLAN would loose it's entire fleet even before it could cross the Malacca straight.

PS. I heard from my friend(he started his research on Logistics) that during 1965 we had ammo shortage, that had resulted India to back off and agree for ceasefire. Gurus @Mikesingh @Kunal Biswas @bornbus @hammer head , please enlighten us.

 

[Mikesingh]

PS. I heard from my friend(he started his research on Logistics) that during 1965 we had ammo shortage, that had resulted India to back off and agree for ceasefire. Gurus @Mikesingh @Kunal Biswas @Bornobus @hammer head , please enlighten us.

There were problems but not the reason for the ceasefire! Do read my post above. Remember, the PLA were forced to withdraw in 1962 due to the complete failure of their logistics. According to Gen Henderson Brooks, the Chinese were forced to drink water from polluted streams causing disease and death of hundreds of soldiers. They were down to eating grass and weeds as they had no supplies. All this bullshit by the Chinese that they withdrew from Arunachal in 1962 because they just wanted to 'teach India a lesson' is so much hogwash!!! They withdrew because they were getting screwed! Period.

The bottom line is that without sound logistics, even God's own army cannot win a war!

 

[A chauhan]

My dear friend, frankly speaking this analysis is pure bullshit. It is very hard to find such a pure shit unless you're looking in PDF.

Wars are not fought based on numbers alone, they are fought with men, materials and their doctrine.

1. Land (and Air) Warfare: It comes to 1:9 ratio in the mountains warfare i.e 9 times of attacking troops are required to capture the defenders base. Logistics play very crucial role. Go few pages back and read @Mikesingh sir's post.

Though 1:9 number is quite popular in mountain warfare.(Drifting into Air battle) After PGMs, I don't think that 1:9 is required. When we narrow down to Doka La conflict, IAF taking off from near Sea level has huge upper hand against PLAAF taking off from almost 4000 mts high in Tibet. With almost 15 military airbases, we have definite upper hand in air battle, while China has only 4 military bases( it also includes landing strips). Let's not get into weapons, training and tactics of both airforces as IAF is way ahead of PLAAF. I believe that we can have air supremacy in a matter of 3 - 5 days. Now bear in mind that PLAAF can't bring it's full force to Tibet as USN is lurking around Korean Peninsula and PLAAF neither have infra not capability to bring it's entire force to Tibet and maintain it for two weeks of air warfare.

Sea Warfare: I hope you've heard of Malacca straights. Where even the stealthiest subs will be caught due to shallow waters ( thought passage is deep enough for huge container ships, but not enough to hide a sub). If IN decides to block Malacca with a couple of Kolkata class destroyers, Talwaar class firgates supported by Kamota class ASW, A squadron Flankers in Andaman and couple of Poseidons. Add Vikramaditya to picture and PLAN would loose it's entire fleet even before it could cross the Malacca straight.

PS. I heard from my friend(he started his research on Logistics) that during 1965 we had ammo shortage, that had resulted India to back off and agree for ceasefire. Gurus @Mikesingh @Kunal Biswas @bornbus @hammer head , please enlighten us.

I deserted PDF in 2009 itself after 10 days of joining, and I found this video in Youtube when I was watching random videos in various topics for time - pass.

 

[Jay99]

If There Is An India-China War Who Would Win

 

[square]

Correct except that in mountainous terrain as obtaining in the high altitude Chumbi Valley area, the PLA would need a combat ratio of 1:9 for attacking Indian positions. We have three divisions in the area. They would need a minimum of 25-27 divisions to attack and capture our positions!! That's impossible as the area does not allow for deploying more than a division due to the terrain, lack of roads and the massive logistics required to support such an offensive.

For example, a division needs approx 600 tons of supplies EVERY DAY which include water, food, ammo, spares etc to maintain itself. They would need a main logistics base and a number of forward logistics bases to dump these supplies. Even a forward logistics base would need an area of about 5 to 6 Sq km which would be extremely difficult to establish in such mountainous terrain. These bases would be always under our air and ground attacks thereby destroying their vital supply lines.

And without supplies they're as dead as dodos after the initial few days as the troops would generally be self contained for about three days.

I would also like to add that the threat to the Siliguri corridor from the Chumbi Valley is non existent due to the reasons brought out above. The PLA would need to construct a 50km long road along the mountains to the plains which is impossible, though some armchair specialists do fear that the North East would be cut off by the PLA. Nothing could be more nonsensical than this. Do note that constructing such a road would take more than a month and thus would be continually interdicted from the air as well ground forces. Thus it's a no go for the PLA. Unless they want to be destroyed piecemeal.

To cut a long story short, the PLA is incapable of even a skirmish let alone launching an all out offensive in the Dhoklam area or even in other border areas. The Himalayas will be a nightmare for the attackers. Their propaganda is just so much hot air which can be seen from the incident of them starting to now throw stones at us due to their utter frustration!

what about a air attack , by air attack i mean , rockets , fighter planes and missiles....

 

[square]

4. CYBER/SPACE WARFARE: If one sees the ranking of Chinese hackers compared to Indian hackers they rank pretty high but when these rankings are made they only consider the people who operate from Chinese or Indian soil.

If you consider the most advanced nations and see the hackers who work for them, you will find considerable number of Indian hackers raked among the top in the world. So if one side launches a hack attack on other it will not be limited to Indian hackers serving from Indian soil, it will be a all out war which is highly dangerous. Next thing i want you to know is military installations are nearly impossible to hack even for genius coders as their security codes changes at very very fast pace. So in this field it’s a tie as no one can say we have edge over other.

we are using chinese devices in our banking system , telecom sector......