LCA Tejas vs JF-17 Thunder

[farhan_9909]

Why would it be any different? It is the SAME engine!



I see no article above. RD-93 has the same overhaul as RD-33MK which is their best engine = 4000hrs.

Klimov :: Production :: Aircraft Program :: RD-33MK

They had to drop the 7000hr claim when it failed testing.

may be you are right about this.though the most recent RD-93ma must be better.

All RD-33s have new combustion chambers to cut back on smoke. It doesn't effect performance.

no no,please check out the videos of indian mig 29 and than JFT.both emit smoke but jft does very less

It has no more thrust than the same RD-33s sold for MiG-29SMT.


SMT?Upgraded or older?if older than it had the older rd-33 which had max thrust of only 81-82kn compared to RD-93 86kn

Adding JF-17 comes to...

14,100lbs empty
4,000lbs fuel
2200lbs loadout

With 11100lbs of dry thrust, JF-17 only has a T/W of .60 to Rafale's .90. It takes JF-17 full afterburner just to get the same numbers as Rafale on military thrust.

The chart is official?seems like a fanboy art from you.
please post the official specs.i dont believe in a chart made by you

That was written on an F-4 = fantasy

F-4 Phantom teria vencido Rafale no Frisian Flag | Poder Aéreo - Informação e Discussão sobre Aviação Militar e Civil

there was one similar of italian eft if i am not wrong.saw while browsing a UK defence related forum.

after confirming this to be f-4..i guess PAF should officially look into the picture and rather keep the f-7pg active in service against future aircraft like rafale of IAF

 

[farhan_9909]

dude still i cannot agree......... because
First thing is that i am not able to see the image the writing or the print in the image is very very blur and i can hardly see any Second i cannot accept this printout as a credible as there is nothing to prove that it is official even i can create a bar diagram and print out on a paper and say this is official from DRDO on LCA and can give the configuration of a F22 for LCA dude be realistic and i cannot nor any one with common sense can accept this image that u have posted as a credible source get over it if u have anything credible i am still open for discussion

this chart is officially from the CAC head from china side..the image is captured from a video

go through this video.for specs as well as future plans

from dubai airshow 2012


*Confirmation of the above chart
*Official specs of JFT block 1
*Timeframe of JFT 2 and JFT 3

 

[Armand2REP]

may be you are right about this.though the most recent RD-93ma must be better.

Of course I am right, Klimov says it for even their most advanced engine. When China orders something better, let me know. They are catching up to India on Russian orders.

no no,please check out the videos of indian mig 29 and than JFT.both emit smoke but jft does very less

Indian MiGs haven't seen their engine upgrades yet so of course they smoke. It is the MiG-29A.

SMT?Upgraded or older?if older than it had the older rd-33 which had max thrust of only 81-82kn compared to RD-93 86kn

Your engine does not have increased thrust. Only Sea Wasp has that increase. When you order a regeared Sea Wasp, let us know.

The chart is official?seems like a fanboy art from you.
please post the official specs.i dont believe in a chart made by you

Not from me, F-16.net... it is easy enough to divide weight by thrust. Specs are readily available. Plug some numbers if you don't believe.

there was one similar of italian eft if i am not wrong.saw while browsing a UK defence related forum.

after confirming this to be f-4..i guess PAF should officially look into the picture and rather keep the f-7pg active in service against future aircraft like rafale of IAF

It is pretty funny when an F-4 recon scout is charcoaling Rafale kills on its engine intakes. It never even flew DACTs against it.

If it thinks it can kill EFT, that is just as funny.

 

[Armand2REP]

this chart is officially from the CAC head from china side..the image is captured from a video

go through this video.for specs as well as future plans

from dubai airshow 2012


*Confirmation of the above chart
*Official specs of JFT block 1
*Timeframe of JFT 2 and JFT 3

Aren't you forgetting something? China has redacted on funding JF-17 development and Pak is broke. The undeveloped aircraft you got is what you get.

 

[farhan_9909]

Of course I am right, Klimov says it for even their most advanced engine. When China orders something better, let me know. They are catching up to India on Russian orders.

rd-93ma.official site which reported it is dead now..though i will quote it from the other forum..the news is posted in this forum as well but harder to track

According to UEC General Designer Alexander Ivakh speaking at the Engines 2012 salon in April, about 70 engines of the RD-33 family were made in Russia last year. Their production is run now by the Chernyshev Mashine-Building Enterprise in Moscow. Previously, the RD-33 Series 2 had been in production with the Baranov OMO enterprise in Omsk (at present, an affiliate of the Salut Gas Turbine Research and Production Centre), but the fact that customers order now RD-33 Series 3 and RD-33MK engines only has left Omsk-based plant with repairing and overhauling Baranov-made engines, while the production of new engines has moved to Moscow.



Chernyshev's near-term production programme is determined by its current orderbook for the second batch of 29 MiG-29K/KUB carrierborne fighters to India (the first batch of 16 aircraft powered by Chernyshev-built RD-33MKs was delivered during 2009–2011) and the recent Russian Defence Ministry order for 24 fighters of the type. In addition, the plant supplied RD-33MK turbofans to fit the first two MiG-29M/M2 fighter prototypes.

The first MiG-29K/KUB jets are due to the Russian Navy's air arm as soon as 2013, but the RD-33MK first has to pass its official bench tests for compliance with peculiar requirements of the Russian Armed Forces. Klimov JSC kicked off the tests on 28 January 2012.

An important position in Chernyshev's production plans is also occupied by the deliveries of RD-33 Series 3 knockdown kits to India under the January 2007 contract on licence production of 120 engines of the type there. The programme is about half-complete.

Finally, the RD-93, a RD-33 derivative with the low-mounted accessory gearbox, is exported to China to fit FC-1 (JF-17) light single-engine fighters. The deal for 100 RD-93s with an option for 400 more was clinched in April 2005. The first 15 engines were assembled by Klimov, and Chernyshev has handled the rest of the deliveries since 2006. The contract is half-complete, and the deliveries shall resume as soon as the customer submits its request.

At the same time with the full-rate production in Moscow, Klimov JSC in St. Petersburg continues to refine the RD-33MK and RD-93. According to Klimov, the company's jet engine priorities are the development of the modified RD-93MA with the thrust enhanced to 9,300 kgf for a foreign customer and the development of the upgraded RD-33MKM with a thrust of 9,500 kgf for the MiG corporation.

Take-off Magazine : RD-33: output on the rise

From 8,300kgf to 9,300kgf. That's a 1 tonne thrust increase. Would do wonders for JF-17's thrust to weight ratio. Enjoy the extra thrust PAF fans!
9,300kgf is equal to 20502lbf if my calculations are right.

Note:Apart from JFT no other fighter use RD-93(original rd-33).neither does apart from pakistan any other country use JF-17.this was reported by insider from pakdef in 2010.

Klimov had also offered a upgraded variant with upto 98kn thrust from zhuhai airshow 2010.

Note:The engine is also not for the egyptian because the deal is not yet signed and they wanted a french engine for the jft.a customized jft for egypt with french engine.

Indian MiGs haven't seen their engine upgrades yet so of course they smoke. It is the MiG-29A.



Your engine does not have increased thrust. Only Sea Wasp has that increase. When you order a regeared Sea Wasp, let us know.

the engine not only has increased thrust but better life as well(86kn thrust for the present rd-93 on JFT while 91.2kn on the JFT 2)

Not from me, F-16.net... it is easy enough to divide weight by thrust. Specs are readily available. Plug some numbers if you don't believe.

it is easy but i still believe the official figures.and the official figure stand at what i posted above.

It is pretty funny when an F-4 recon scout is charcoaling Rafale kills on its engine intakes. It never even flew DACTs against it.

If it thinks it can kill EFT, that is just as funny.

as i said before i have seen a similar of eurofighter as well.i will post it sometime later

EFT is a class apart fighter.something that no one in the europe has the capacity to produce

the next super duper fighter expected from europe is the turkish-swedish jv.

 

[farhan_9909]

Of course I am right, Klimov says it for even their most advanced engine. When China orders something better, let me know. They are catching up to India on Russian orders.

rd-93ma.official site which reported it is dead now..though i will quote it from the other forum..the news is posted in this forum as well but harder to track

According to UEC General Designer Alexander Ivakh speaking at the Engines 2012 salon in April, about 70 engines of the RD-33 family were made in Russia last year. Their production is run now by the Chernyshev Mashine-Building Enterprise in Moscow. Previously, the RD-33 Series 2 had been in production with the Baranov OMO enterprise in Omsk (at present, an affiliate of the Salut Gas Turbine Research and Production Centre), but the fact that customers order now RD-33 Series 3 and RD-33MK engines only has left Omsk-based plant with repairing and overhauling Baranov-made engines, while the production of new engines has moved to Moscow.



Chernyshev's near-term production programme is determined by its current orderbook for the second batch of 29 MiG-29K/KUB carrierborne fighters to India (the first batch of 16 aircraft powered by Chernyshev-built RD-33MKs was delivered during 2009–2011) and the recent Russian Defence Ministry order for 24 fighters of the type. In addition, the plant supplied RD-33MK turbofans to fit the first two MiG-29M/M2 fighter prototypes.

The first MiG-29K/KUB jets are due to the Russian Navy's air arm as soon as 2013, but the RD-33MK first has to pass its official bench tests for compliance with peculiar requirements of the Russian Armed Forces. Klimov JSC kicked off the tests on 28 January 2012.

An important position in Chernyshev's production plans is also occupied by the deliveries of RD-33 Series 3 knockdown kits to India under the January 2007 contract on licence production of 120 engines of the type there. The programme is about half-complete.

Finally, the RD-93, a RD-33 derivative with the low-mounted accessory gearbox, is exported to China to fit FC-1 (JF-17) light single-engine fighters. The deal for 100 RD-93s with an option for 400 more was clinched in April 2005. The first 15 engines were assembled by Klimov, and Chernyshev has handled the rest of the deliveries since 2006. The contract is half-complete, and the deliveries shall resume as soon as the customer submits its request.

At the same time with the full-rate production in Moscow, Klimov JSC in St. Petersburg continues to refine the RD-33MK and RD-93. According to Klimov, the company's jet engine priorities are the development of the modified RD-93MA with the thrust enhanced to 9,300 kgf for a foreign customer and the development of the upgraded RD-33MKM with a thrust of 9,500 kgf for the MiG corporation.

Take-off Magazine : RD-33: output on the rise

From 8,300kgf to 9,300kgf. That's a 1 tonne thrust increase. Would do wonders for JF-17's thrust to weight ratio. Enjoy the extra thrust PAF fans!
9,300kgf is equal to 20502lbf if my calculations are right.

Note:Apart from JFT no other fighter use RD-93(original rd-33).neither does apart from pakistan any other country use JF-17.this was reported by insider from pakdef in 2010.

Klimov had also offered a upgraded variant with upto 98kn thrust from zhuhai airshow 2010.

Note:The engine is also not for the egyptian because the deal is not yet signed and they wanted a french engine for the jft.a customized jft for egypt with french engine.

Indian MiGs haven't seen their engine upgrades yet so of course they smoke. It is the MiG-29A.



Your engine does not have increased thrust. Only Sea Wasp has that increase. When you order a regeared Sea Wasp, let us know.

the engine not only has increased thrust but better life as well(86kn thrust for the present rd-93 on JFT while 91.2kn on the JFT 2)

Not from me, F-16.net... it is easy enough to divide weight by thrust. Specs are readily available. Plug some numbers if you don't believe.

it is easy but i still believe the official figures.and the official figure stand at what i posted above.

It is pretty funny when an F-4 recon scout is charcoaling Rafale kills on its engine intakes. It never even flew DACTs against it.

If it thinks it can kill EFT, that is just as funny.

as i said before i have seen a similar of eurofighter as well.i will post it sometime later

EFT is a class apart fighter.something that no one in the europe has the capacity to produce

the next super duper fighter expected from europe is the turkish-swedish jv.

 

[Jagdish]

Hey no point in argueing with jokers guys just enjoy LCA Tejas & LCA Navy . hope u guys like it & pls ignore Junk fighter-17 for god sake

 

[farhan_9909]

So expected/confirmed Upgrades in JFT 2

*IFR
*Improved radar/avionics
*rd-93ma with 91.2kn thrust(+6-7kn more over JFT 1)
*5000kg payload(JFT-1 4600kg)
*1 new hardpoint for pods
*new weapons integration
*greater use of composites
*MAA-1B integration

Expected but not confirmed

*IRST
*Render AESA(NRIET)
*Sd-10B integration
etc

 

[Armand2REP]

rd-93ma.official site which reported it is dead now..though i will quote it from the other forum..the news is posted in this forum as well but harder to track

How convenient for you the official site is dead huh? It is dead because China isn't going to fund it and Pak doesn't have the money. Russia certainly isn't going to spend money on a single engine regear Sea Wasp for one fighter type its sole customer can't afford.

Note:Apart from JFT no other fighter use RD-93(original rd-33).neither does apart from pakistan any other country use JF-17.this was reported by insider from pakdef in 2010.

Does it take a pakfed insider to state the obvious?

Klimov had also offered a upgraded variant with upto 98kn thrust from zhuhai airshow 2010.

Klimov offered China, China said no way we aren't funding a crap fighter we don't use.

Note:The engine is also not for the egyptian because the deal is not yet signed and they wanted a french engine for the jft.a customized jft for egypt with french engine.

Of course they did, they want a reliable engine with long service life. That is NOT Klimov.

the engine not only has increased thrust but better life as well(86kn thrust for the present rd-93 on JFT while 91.2kn on the JFT 2)

It was the proposed regear of Sea Wasp that never happened. China wasn't going to fund it.

it is easy but i still believe the official figures.and the official figure stand at what i posted above.

You post figures of fantasy engine.

as i said before i have seen a similar of eurofighter as well.i will post it sometime later

idrk what you are talking about nor do I care. F-4 recos aren't dog fighting Rafale or Eurofighter.

EFT is a class apart fighter.something that no one in the europe has the capacity to produce

No one in Europe? It is made in Europe.

the next super duper fighter expected from europe is the turkish-swedish jv.

Whatever you say...

 

[p2prada]

JF-17 won't have a future with the RD-93. I mean it is fine with JF-17 B1 and B2. But if B3 is expected to be a 4.5th gen aircraft, PAF may accept it, but other countries with more options may not go for it.

 

[farhan_9909]

Aren't you forgetting something? China has redacted on funding JF-17 development and Pak is broke. The undeveloped aircraft you got is what you get.

lol,will you please support your claim with any valid source?

if so was the case why they are keep testing the pt-06 alongside the J-20 and j-10B?

i just hope you dont post the french source which emerged after JFT is almost close to get into serbian air force defeating rafale.

 

[farhan_9909]

How convenient for you the official site is dead huh? It is dead because China isn't going to fund it and Pak doesn't have the money. Russia certainly isn't going to spend money on a single engine regear Sea Wasp for one fighter type its sole customer can't afford.

Pakistan cant afford engines?China is very well in the project.you can anytime check the official AVIC/CATIC sites

Russia is already developing as evident from the news
Russia though has offered 400 more engines including the TVC one.

Does it take a pakfed insider to state the obvious?

By Pakdef i didnt mean defe.nce.pk but PAKDEF.

Klimov offered China, China said no way we aren't funding a crap fighter we don't use.

can you support your claim Mr Anand..If china would have refused the upgraded engine in 2010.the work on upgraded rd-93ma would have not started

Of course they did, they want a reliable engine with long service life. That is NOT Klimov.

Klimov engines are not reliable?.could be the reason why only 1 jft had crashed after 6 years.

It was the proposed regear of Sea Wasp that never happened. China wasn't going to fund it.

For God sake will you support your claim as china is not going to fund it?

You post figures of fantasy engine.

For you Anand

idrk what you are talking about nor do I care. F-4 recos aren't dog fighting Rafale or Eurofighter.

As said in my above post..i will send a mail to PAF to look into this matter and keep 2 squadrons of F-7pg as reserves for rafale as JFT/f-16 would be an over kill for Rafale

No one in Europe? It is made in Europe.



Whatever you say...

Excluding France.

in the history of indo french relations.france has ditched india 2 times.
1-giving a compound delta design to india known as LCA(courtesy india military official)
2-forcing them to accept rafale.now on the verge of being cancelled.

 

[farhan_9909]

JF-17 won't have a future with the RD-93. I mean it is fine with JF-17 B1 and B2. But if B3 is expected to be a 4.5th gen aircraft, PAF may accept it, but other countries with more options may not go for it.

Indeed.

as indicated by PAF officials many time.
the future of JFT is ws-12/13.And the priority of the development of WS-12/13 is even higher now because of J-31.

Guizhou WS-13 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[farhan_9909]

More and More offered

but the future is Ws-13 series with +100kn thrust

http://en.rian.ru/military_news/20101116/161360534.html

Beijing concluded a $238-mln contract with Moscow in 2005 for supplies of a 100 RD-93 engines with options for another 400 to equip its FC-1 Fierce Dragon fighter jets, jointly developed with Pakistan.

"We are holding new talks with the China National Aero-Technology Import & Export Corporation [CATIC] on another option for additional 100 RD-93 engines," Deputy General Director of Rosoboronexport Alexander Mikheyev said at the Airshow China 2010, which is being held on November 16-21 in Zhuhai.
"We hope that this contract will be signed," Mikheyev added

 

[farhan_9909]

Courtesy tempest

I believe the RD-93 has improvements along the RD-33MK. I however think it has more changes (i would not like to use the word improvements) hence they no longer call it the "33" but "93".

OK, here is the first hint that is very specific to the RD-93 concerning its thrust : Russia Chooses Between $1.5 Billion and $2 Billion - Kommersant Moscow .

China is additionally suggesting that that RD-93 be modernized and its thrust increased from 8.3 to 9 tons in order to pump up the tactical-technical specifications of the FC-1. Rosoboronexport has yet to make a decision, since the modified RD-93 has not been completely developed yet in Russia.
Now, we have already been told by Muradk that the RD-33 thrust figure we are using is lower than what the RD-93 is outputting.

 

[Armand2REP]

Pakistan cant afford engines?China is very well in the project.you can anytime check the official AVIC/CATIC sites

China is in it as far as Pakistan is willing to fund it. It is typical supplier-client relationship.

Russia is already developing as evident from the news

According to the website, it is off the table. Or did you forget they took it down?

Russia though has offered 400 more engines including the TVC one.

That was before China decided to cut funding.

Does it take a pakfed insider to state the obvious?

By Pakdef i didnt mean defe.nce.pk but PAKDEF.

It is common knowledge so citing anyone is redundant.

can you support your claim Mr Anand..If china would have refused the upgraded engine in 2010.the work on upgraded rd-93ma would have not started

Sure, it is confirmed China is not funding JF-17 development and Klimov took the offering off the website. It is not hard to put two and two together.

Klimov engines are not reliable?.could be the reason why only 1 jft had crashed after 6 years.

Is that why Egypt wants Snecma engines?

For God sake will you support your claim as china is not going to fund it?

There are several pages on it in the JF-17 thread. Stop being lazy and look it up.

For you Anand

Who is that?

As said in my above post..i will send a mail to PAF to look into this matter and keep 2 squadrons of F-7pg as reserves for rafale as JFT/f-16 would be an over kill for Rafale

Considering you lost 14 aircraft last year, you have to do better than that. You can't even keep the Taliban from launching RPGs at your precious fighters.

Excluding France.

Actually France does build certain components of EFT.

in the history of indo french relations.france has ditched india 2 times.
1-giving a compound delta design to india known as LCA(courtesy india military official)
2-forcing them to accept rafale.now on the verge of being cancelled.

How is giving them the design for LCA and selling Rafale considered ditching them?

 

[farhan_9909]

Evidence of France being the country that has designed the LCA for india.by ditching india in this sense means that you gave them a compound delta design with zero future upgrades possibility.while they are trying there level best from the past 3 decades but alas it might be inducted after 35 years of development(that too only 40).

In rafale sense.rafale was initially rejected because of poor performance in 2009.somehow by any mean france succeeded to bribe them to select rafale

remember the agosta90b deal with pakistan and the kickbacks in the deal..deal with france usually involve alot of scam
it

LCA Design Dassault france.

The Indian government has been seeking technical assistance from American and European manufacturers for the LCA programme, and a fierce competition has raged among Lockheed, Grumman and Northrop as well as British Aerospace, MBB, Dornier, and Dassault-Breguet. Finally, Dassault-Breguet was chosen for the LCA programme and won a$100 million technical cooperation contract with India's Aeronautical Development Authority.
Dassault-Breguet will assist the Indians in the design and systems integration ' of the aircraft. Thirty top-flight engineers from Dassault-Breguet are due in India shortly to act as technical advisers to IADA in charge of the LCA programme.

The rest

he to-be-indigenously-developed engine for the LCA -- Kaveri -- was forgotten and the US made General Electric F-404 engine was substituted. Radar was sourced from Erricson Ferranti, carbon-fibre composite panels for wings from Alenia and fly-by-wire controls from Lockheed Martin. Design help was sought from British Aerospace, Avion Marcel Dassault and Deutsche Aerospace. Wind tunnel testing was done in the US, Russia and France

rediff.com: Admiral J G Nadkarni (retd) on the sad tale of the Light Combat Aircraft

 

[farhan_9909]

CHina is very much in the project.if you think the french source is credible than it may be for you not us.

JFT will participate in paris airshow this year..

Not just egypt but pakistan as well wanted the snecma engine may be because of 95kn thrust..

 

[A chauhan]

Evidence of France being the country that has designed the LCA for india.

Finally, Dassault-Breguet was chosen for the LCA programme and won a$100 million technical cooperation contract with India's Aeronautical Development Authority.

That is the level of your understanding ! LCA was designed by ADA France only provided technical assistance and you have no idea what counts in assistance. Unlike JF-17, LCA is finalised in India, designed in India and made in India.

 

[farhan_9909]

That is the level of your understanding ! LCA was designed by ADA France only provided technical assistance and you have no idea what counts in assistance. Unlike JF-17, LCA is finalised in India, designed in India and made in India.

Yes for 100millions

they not just helped as indicated by indians but rather designed you the LCA.