LCA Tejas vs JF-17 Thunder

farhan_9909

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You are saying that a compound delta wing tailless fighter with 40% composite materials has no future !!?? And JF-17 a metal plane has future? Think seriously mate. Tell me what will be your "excuse" about AMCA and its 3-4 wing tunnel designs?

You are comparing PAC with ADA :facepalm: unlike Sabre-II which was "based" on Chengdu F-7M Grumman Aerospace Corporation was design consultant and was rejected by PAF, LCA is a completely new design which is inducted in IAF.
.
i could be wrong please correct me

LCA use 40% composites
JFT pt-04 had 8%.

So far this is what i know about composites

*They are lighter hence decreasing the over all weight.
*They increase the airframe life
*Decrease the RCS???

Now posting the dimensions of Both LCA and JFT

LCA
General characteristics
Crew: 1
Length: 13.20 m (43 ft 4 in)
Wingspan: 8.20 m (26 ft 11 in)
Height: 4.40 m (14 ft 9 in)
Wing area: 38.4 m² (413 ft²)
Empty weight: 6,500 kg (14,300 lb)
Loaded weight: 9,500 kg (20,944 lb)
Max. takeoff weight: 13,300 kg (29,100 lb)
JFT

Crew: 1
Length: 14.93 m (49 ft[9])
Wingspan: 9.45 m (31 ft, including 2 wingtip missiles.[9])
Height: 4.72 m (15 ft 6 in[9])
Wing area: 24.4 m²[135] (263 ft²)
Empty weight: 6,586 kg (14,520 lb[9])
Loaded weight: 9,100 kg (20,062 lb)
Useful load: 3000 kg (6600 lb)
Max. takeoff weight: 12,383 kg (27,300 lb[9])
JFT

*5ft lengthy
*5ft more wingspan
*1ft taller

Yes all the above 3 to a certain extent contributes to weight

LCA
*Larger wing area


Now add to JF-17 weight (158kg fuel capacity)=Total JFT weight 6788kg
LCA 6500kg

LCA use 40% composites
JFT use 8%.

THis give rise to 2 possibilities

*Either No composites are used in LCA and the officials are laying as like they are laying about the induction of LCA since 2003.
*super low quality of composites are used

Note:Remind me when JFT 2 is revealed along with official specs.that will have 30-35% use of composites.

Composites in LCA is a myth if we look into the above matter
 

p2prada

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LCA is still a work in progress. New specs need to be released. The current ones are quite old, from IOC-1.

Also, please don't compare PAC to ADA.
 

arnabmit

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40% is by weight. Please consider weight:volume ratio of composites against metal.

70% of surface area is composite.







i could be wrong please correct me

LCA use 40% composites
JFT pt-04 had 8%.

So far this is what i know about composites

*They are lighter hence decreasing the over all weight.
*They increase the airframe life
*Decrease the RCS???

Now posting the dimensions of Both LCA and JFT

LCA


JFT



JFT

*5ft lengthy
*5ft more wingspan
*1ft taller

Yes all the above 3 to a certain extent contributes to weight

LCA
*Larger wing area


Now add to JF-17 weight (158kg fuel capacity)=Total JFT weight 6788kg
LCA 6500kg

LCA use 40% composites
JFT use 8%.

THis give rise to 2 possibilities

*Either No composites are used in LCA and the officials are laying as like they are laying about the induction of LCA since 2003.
*super low quality of composites are used

Note:Remind me when JFT 2 is revealed along with official specs.that will have 30-35% use of composites.

Composites in LCA is a myth if we look into the above matter
 
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farhan_9909

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40% is by weight. Please consider weight:volume ratio of composites against metal.

70% of surface area is composite.





i dont know how to calculate composites weight ratio against aluminium and titanium.

but a fighter that use 40%/75% composites compared to one use 8% must not have atleast 244kg weight difference

As per CDF poster.the JFT will loose 700kg weight when the %age of composite will be enhanced to 30-35%....
 

farhan_9909

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40% is by weight. Please consider weight:volume ratio of composites against metal.

70% of surface area is composite.





i dont know how to calculate composites weight ratio against aluminium and titanium.

but a fighter that use 40%/75% composites compared to one use 8% must not have atleast 244kg weight difference

As per CDF poster.the JFT will loose 700kg weight when the %age of composite will be enhanced to 30-35%....
 

A chauhan

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i could be wrong please correct me

LCA use 40% composites
JFT pt-04 had 8%.

So far this is what i know about composites

*They are lighter hence decreasing the over all weight.
*They increase the airframe life
*Decrease the RCS???

Now posting the dimensions of Both LCA and JFT

LCA


JFT



JFT

*5ft lengthy
*5ft more wingspan
*1ft taller

Yes all the above 3 to a certain extent contributes to weight

LCA
*Larger wing area


Now add to JF-17 weight (158kg fuel capacity)=Total JFT weight 6788kg
LCA 6500kg

LCA use 40% composites
JFT use 8%.

THis give rise to 2 possibilities

*Either No composites are used in LCA and the officials are laying as like they are laying about the induction of LCA since 2003.
*super low quality of composites are used

Note:Remind me when JFT 2 is revealed along with official specs.that will have 30-35% use of composites.

Composites in LCA is a myth if we look into the above matter
I believe on the data released by ADA as India was and is a democratic state where every detail has to be presented before parliament and has transparency unlike Pakistan which lies to satisfy its people and releases false data while original design coming from a communist state which hides all its failures and releases false data to scare its enemies. Your JF-17's specifications have been overestimated by PAC to make it look competitive and satisfy Pakistani people.

In India it is tough to lie while in Pakistan it is tough say the truth.
 
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arnabmit

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Your weight difference logic would be true only if both the crafts use identical internal components. Please consider the weight difference of engines, avionics, FBW, FCS, EW etc. etc. between the 2 crafts.

i dont know how to calculate composites weight ratio against aluminium and titanium.

but a fighter that use 40%/75% composites compared to one use 8% must not have atleast 244kg weight difference

As per CDF poster.the JFT will loose 700kg weight when the %age of composite will be enhanced to 30-35%....
 

farhan_9909

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I believe on the data released by ADA as India was and is a democratic state where every detail has to be presented before parliament and has transparency unlike Pakistan which lies to satisfy its people and releases false data while original design coming from a communist state which hides all its failures and releases false data to scare its enemies. Your JF-17's specifications have been overestimated by PAC to make it look competitive and satisfy Pakistani people.

In India it is tough to lie while in Pakistan it is tough say the truth.
Please dont tell me about india.i know about india more than you.

PAC specs are very old.i mean the site is not updated since the pt-04.but still i have taken those figures

otherwise official figure of empty JFT now stand at 6400kg from the latest airshow's placard.they are the official updated specs
 

farhan_9909

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Your weight difference logic would be true only if both the crafts use identical internal components. Please consider the weight difference of engines, avionics, FBW, FCS, EW etc. etc. between the 2 crafts.
yes very well said.

I dont know which prototype figure are taken for the LCA.but indeed the empty weight of LCA will over shoot to atleast 7000kg when it is tested with full avionics.

Compare to JFT we have official specs of the operational JFT with complete avionics suite

These are the most latest specs of JFT.from zhuhai airshow nov 2012(4-5months older)

*Notice the 4600kg payload
*86kn thrust


i can post alot about JF-17 avionics
for the time being read this.we have the complete avionics suite of JFT operational.

CAC/PAC JF-17 Thunder - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 

A chauhan

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Please dont tell me about india.i know about india more than you.

PAC specs are very old.i mean the site is not updated since the pt-04.but still i have taken those figures

otherwise official figure of empty JFT now stand at 6400kg from the latest airshow's placard.they are the official updated specs
Lol you know India more than I know !?

You didn't get the point, ADA is credible unlike PAC.
 

farhan_9909

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Lol you know India more than I know !?

You didn't get the point, ADA is credible unlike PAC.
For you not for us.

Since JF-17 is offered for export with participating in 5 airshow's,for the customer official specs posted are 100% credible.

Anyway we dont care whether you consider PAC as credible or not.or whatever you think.because your remakrs doesnt matter at all.
 

A chauhan

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For you not for us.

Since JF-17 is offered for export with participating in 5 airshow's,for the customer official specs posted are 100% credible.

Anyway we dont care whether you consider PAC as credible or not.or whatever you think.because your remakrs doesnt matter at all.
Same is for us, whatever Pakis puke around about ADA we don't care, because your remarks doesn't matter us at all. ADA is 100% credible as it submits its reports to the govt. and there is a complete transparency in India unlike Pakistan.
 

farhan_9909

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Same is for us, whatever Pakis puke around about ADA we don't care, because your remarks doesn't matter us at all. ADA is 100% credible as it submits its reports to the govt. and there is a complete transparency in India unlike Pakistan.
WHat kind of reports?delay of LCA each and every year is submitted to the GOI and you consider them as credible..

Good if so is the defination of credibility by you
 

A chauhan

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WHat kind of reports?delay of LCA each and every year is submitted to the GOI and you consider them as credible..

Good if so is the defination of credibility by you
:facepalm: It's not your fault, how can you understand such reports when your country was almost always ruled by military except last 5 years & you had no chance to taste the democratic ways !!

So far as your definition of credibility is concerned we know what is credibility in Pakistan, recent failed missile test declared as successful is one of the finest example and there are many examples of this.
 

farhan_9909

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:facepalm: It's not your fault, how can you understand such reports when your country was almost always ruled by military except last 5 years & you had no chance to taste the democratic ways !!

So far as your definition of credibility is concerned we know what is credibility in Pakistan, recent failed missile test declared as successful is one of the finest example and there are many examples of this.
we had the taste of democracy in the 5 past years.and we know what happened in those 5 yeas and in the period of dictators as well..

Ghauri series poduction is stopped..phased out..they are just testing it from the cold storage.
 

A chauhan

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we had the taste of democracy in the 5 past years.and we know what happened in those 5 yeas and in the period of dictators as well..
Lol you tasted it in just 5 years, strange.
Ghauri series poduction is stopped..phased out..they are just testing it from the cold storage.
But the fact remains it was declared a successful test by your country.
 

ADITYA MAYUKH

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Jf 17 vs lca tejas

Jf 17 vs lca tejas . Have a fair comparision.i know its embrassing for some member but to have a good knowledge of these twoi liked to have a new thread as there
 

gokussj9

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Re: ADA LCA Tejas - IV

@p2prada

Wouldn't it be the case that the prominent air forces would keep a mix of 5+4.5+4 generation fighters. So, in that case
the significance of LCA (Mark II) is not completely lost?

Also, how does LCA matches to its contemporaries single engine 4th generation fighters ex JF-17, J-10, Gripen, F-16(Blk 52) in terms of flying characteristics,
RCS, radar, weapons etc.
I saw some videos on youtube

LCA (Tejas), JF-17 Thunder turn rate, roll rate and loop comparison - YouTube


JF-17 Thunder and MiG 21 comparison - YouTube

LCA (Tejas), J-10 and JF-17 airshow performance comparison - YouTube

Seems like LCA is better than the chini aircrafts.
Could you elaborate on this?

PS: I am noob when it comes to these things. :laugh:
 
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p2prada

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Re: ADA LCA Tejas - IV

@p2prada

Wouldn't it be the case that the prominent air forces would keep a mix of 5+4.5+4 generation fighters. So, in that case
the significance of LCA (Mark II) is not completely lost?
In terms of relevance. LCA Mk2 isn't equivalent to a EF, Gripen NG or Rafale. It is aerodynamically equivalent to a Mirage-2000 while being as advanced as the F-16V (stopgap upgrade program for USAF because of F-35 delays). Not the Block 60, though. That's a completely different aircraft.

So, the LCA Mk2 may be effective until 2020, but not beyond that. It will fall into the obsolete category before long. Also note that MK2 will actually be inducted during that time, where the threat perception may be completely different.

Also, how does LCA matches to its contemporaries single engine 4th generation fighters ex JF-17, J-10, Gripen, F-16(Blk 52) in terms of flying characteristics,
LCA Mk1 is inferior to Mirage-2000 in performance. It is currently between a Mirage-III and a Mirage-2000 and is inferior to even Bison when it comes to transonic acceleration. LCA Mk2 should have slightly inferior turn rates compared to Mirage-2000 but should have far superior acceleration due to the F-414s. That is as long as LCA Mk2 does not see major weight changes than what is planned. LCA has larger wings too, so the requirement for thrust is greater.

Gripen C has plateaued for its design and is at a different level. Something LCA can never hope to match. Meaning its sustained turn rate (STR) exceeds F-16 and has instantaneous turn rates (ITR) that exceeds Mirage-2000. STR is F-16s strength and ITR is Mirage-2000s strength. Gripen exceeds both, so you can only imagine. Canards help. Apart from that it has a very low drag airframe which allows higher acceleration even though the engine delivers the same power as LCA Mk1. As for NG, I don't know.

JF-17, I don't really know. Some sources say that the aircraft handles as good as the F-16 except in the vertical department. Meaning it should have very poor acceleration compared to Mk2. But JF-17 may show better STR and inferior ITR than Mk2. More or less, a F-16 with a weak engine.

RCS, radar, weapons etc.
RCS has attained significant attention in the world after the arrival of the F-117/B-2 and F-22. However RCS is more relevant to such aircraft where the RCS figures are very very low. As in 1000-10000 times smaller than LCA. RCS figures between 0.1m2 and 100m2 are of less significance because such aircraft do not come in the LO or Low Observable bracket. It merely has a small RCS.

Yes, it is smaller than MKI/F-15 etc, but LCA doesn't have other advantages that can effectively use a low RCS. Meaning LCA does not have the range or the payload or the detection capability that can make actual use of low RCS as a standalone system. Meaning, regardless of the low RCS, LCA will still have to work with other aircraft like Jaguar.

LCA's role is quite simple.

1) Kill something that intruded our territory and was picked up by early warning systems. This is self-explanatory.

2) Escort strike package. Here the LCA stays behind the strike package. In case the strike aircraft are threatened, LCA shoots missiles and chases off the enemy aircraft. Meaning they try and break enemy formations and force them away. In case the enemy persists, our strike package either go on standby or retreat. Of course, they will all function under the mighty umbrella of the MKI where the MKI actually gives chase and makes the kill. During Kargil, the umbrella was provided by Mig-29s (where they chased off F-16s) while 4-6 Mirage-2000s carried strike packages and 2-4 Mirage-2000s escorted the strike package.

For the above two roles, LCA's radar and weapons are adequate.

Seems like LCA is better than the chini aircrafts.
Could you elaborate on this?
Air shows don't really demonstrate much for aircraft because they all fly with optimum fuel and no external stores. Give them weapons, full fuel and drop tanks, they will fly like passenger aircraft. Only 5th gen aircraft are immune to this to a certain extent.

The real benchmark is how good the LCA will fly with external stores. The F-414 is such a good engine that in reality LCA Mk2 will be better than all the Chinese aircraft because they are all using older, inferior stopgap engines and will continue to do so for quite sometime.

PS: I am noob when it comes to these things. :laugh:
No issues. We are all here to learn.
 
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