LCA TEJAS MK1 & MK1A: News and Discussion

abingdonboy

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If India executed people in the forces who pocketed the bonuses that go along with procurements, would they be so keen to buy shiny foreign toys? Same for politicians and bureaucrats who like their bonuses, too.
It’s not explicit bonuses anymore- it is benefits in kind aka executive positions post retirement and the like

And this is something that happens in every major armed forces i can think of. Look at all the major OEMs they are filled with staff from Western armed forces (retired). The U.K. has some equally egregious golden parachute type arrangements for its senior general staff.

just look at the revolving door in the US between the executive branch and big business. This stuff infects everywhere
 

MonaLazy

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people in the forces who pocketed the bonuses
It is not so simple. If you sit through the video you'll understand that no one's wrong. It is just about where they are coming from.

As AC Suren Tyagi said the panels had to be hammered into place after being pulled out (all initial planes were built by hand to inexact tolerances)- the fact that it has glass cockpit, quadruplex redundant digital FBW do not matter. He is only thinking "I am gonna have to take this cr@p to war.. & I can't even put the same panel back, forget about swapping parts from other planes in the squadron to cater to war exigencies.. ". At the same time, HAL/ADA can claim we have arrived on the world stage with a modern 4.5 generation plane leapfrogging two generations! Differing perspectives.

IAF tried to take ownership of HAL which turned into an ugly war. Without control of the process and the program they were told to relax by the SA to PM after submitting the ASQR- and no feedback from IAF into the program till TD stage- at which point it was too late for any changes. No say in the choice of technologies. The legendary Indian bureaucracy extends to various arms of MoD- the silos are so well re-inforced that even a nuclear bunker-buster cannot destroy them. From IAF's PoV they were being unpatriotic and wasting away tax payer resources while DRDO gleefully tom-tomed every flight of every TD/PV/LSP announcing we are the 3/4/5th country in the world to achieve this or that. IAF was right in asking where is the final product in that melee of victorious proclamations.

DRDO also overpromised and under delivered- for really long. It delayed and messed up long term acquisition plans of IAF. Why blame them? When Sino/Pak come to war we can't say "Excuse please, but we are not ready!". IAF is a fighting force- they need capability in the present.

Everything very well summarised by ACM SP Tyagi in the end. LCA is a brilliant technology program but was run very poorly. We have learnt how not to run a program and hopefully run Mk2/AMCA better.
 

Okabe Rintarou

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It is not so simple. If you sit through the video you'll understand that no one's wrong. It is just about where they are coming from.

As AC Suren Tyagi said the panels had to be hammered into place after being pulled out (all initial planes were built by hand to inexact tolerances)- the fact that it has glass cockpit, quadruplex redundant digital FBW do not matter. He is only thinking "I am gonna have to take this cr@p to war.. & I can't even put the same panel back, forget about swapping parts from other planes in the squadron to cater to war exigencies.. ". At the same time, HAL/ADA can claim we have arrived on the world stage with a modern 4.5 generation plane leapfrogging two generations! Differing perspectives.

IAF tried to take ownership of HAL which turned into an ugly war. Without control of the process and the program they were told to relax by the SA to PM after submitting the ASQR- and no feedback from IAF into the program till TD stage- at which point it was too late for any changes. No say in the choice of technologies. The legendary Indian bureaucracy extends to various arms of MoD- the silos are so well re-inforced that even a nuclear bunker-buster cannot destroy them. From IAF's PoV they were being unpatriotic and wasting away tax payer resources while DRDO gleefully tom-tomed every flight of every TD/PV/LSP announcing we are the 3/4/5th country in the world to achieve this or that. IAF was right in asking where is the final product in that melee of victorious proclamations.

DRDO also overpromised and under delivered- for really long. It delayed and messed up long term acquisition plans of IAF. Why blame them? When Sino/Pak come to war we can't say "Excuse please, but we are not ready!". IAF is a fighting force- they need capability in the present.

Everything very well summarised by ACM SP Tyagi in the end. LCA is a brilliant technology program but was run very poorly. We have learnt how not to run a program and hopefully run Mk2/AMCA better.

Read this excerpt from a 2018-19 Public Accounts Committee report:-



Tejas IAF-ADA (non)cooperation PSC report 1.png

Tejas IAF-ADA (non)cooperation PSC report 2.png

Tejas IAF-ADA (non)cooperation PSC report 3.png
Tejas IAF-ADA (non)cooperation PSC report 4.png
Tejas IAF-ADA (non)cooperation PSC report 5.png




Particularly this:-

Tejas IAF-ADA (non)cooperation PSC report main.png
 
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abingdonboy

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7th in the air means 8 and 9 are close to engine runs. At this rate I think HAL will still miss their March 2022 target, they'll likely deliver 10-12 FOC by then. all 16 by June/July (best case). 3-4 month delay can fairly by attributed to COVID, just hope there's no impact on the MK1A development.


When are we going to see Np-5 and the Mk.1 trainers flying/rolled out? Weird that these other airframes have gone missing
 

Aditya Ballal

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7th in the air means 8 and 9 are close to engine runs. At this rate I think HAL will still miss their March 2022 target, they'll likely deliver 10-12 FOC by then. all 16 by June/July (best case). 3-4 month delay can fairly by attributed to COVID, just hope there's no impact on the MK1A development.


When are we going to see Np-5 and the Mk.1 trainers flying/rolled out? Weird that these other airframes have gone missing
AKM said initial batch of Trainers are on the jigs being assembled right?
 

abingdonboy

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AKM said initial batch of Trainers are on the jigs being assembled right?
He said SPT-1 was close to being ready, SPT-2 not far behind but no time frames and haven't heard anything about NP-5 in a long time now, weird.

A real shame IAF didn't give the Mk1A order 1-2 years earlier, HAL would've been pouring in money into capacity much earlier that would've seen benefits already for existing production efforts. As it stands there's going to be a significant lull between late 2022 and 2024.
 

Love Charger

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7th in the air means 8 and 9 are close to engine runs. At this rate I think HAL will still miss their March 2022 target, they'll likely deliver 10-12 FOC by then. all 16 by June/July (best case). 3-4 month delay can fairly by attributed to COVID, just hope there's no impact on the MK1A development.


When are we going to see Np-5 and the Mk.1 trainers flying/rolled out? Weird that these other airframes have gone missing
 

MonaLazy

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Hard to tell from a review that is looking back 30 years if the IAF was a voluntary fence-sitter (no confidence in domestic capability) or forced to sit on the fence (with other arms of MoD wanting to lead the charge on a prestigious program for self-glory or whatever). The credibility of such a review is also low because how can you sum up so many decades in a few pages.

It is almost impossible that ADA/HAL indeed offered pole position to IAF in running the program and IAF politely declined saying no we control the purse strings, but you ADA/HAL go right ahead and run the show without us. The fact is such control was never offered to IAF! There is no reason for the IAF to refuse given the example set by IN from very early on. There was only bickering over control and the program became everyone's stepchild, until it turned the corner.

The IAF was wrong only in its vision for itself, in not setting up facilities to design aircraft and being merely flying & maintaining air assets- which is big in itself given the number of platforms it operates and their supply chains, but they should have dreamt bigger.

HAL/DRDO probably avoided giving over control, for fear the IAF may pull the plug on the program- fully aware of their own capability, they would have of course known their time commitments to IAF were all hot air.

It is a fairly straightforward assumption that in the fight between the AF on one side and scientists/babus of MoD over a botched up program looking for a scapegoat 30 years later- the soldier was made the fall guy.
 

Photon

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New Tejas article published by springer written by Dr.Kotta Harinarayana
 

Roland55

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Lca has thousands of components. 50 is a very small number in this context.
I guess, it could be...the wheels (lets say Dunlop), joints, some small valves, things like that?

If its a small number, i hope the price won't end above the 50M U$ (thats roughly what the JF-17 B3 costs). I assume the Malaysian deal had a similar treatment with Israeli components?
 

Tang

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I guess, it could be...the wheels (lets say Dunlop), joints, some small valves, things like that?

If its a small number, i hope the price won't end above the 50M U$ (thats roughly what the JF-17 B3 costs). I assume the Malaysian deal had a similar treatment with Israeli components?
Wheels are Indian. MRF
 

IndianHawk

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I guess, it could be...the wheels (lets say Dunlop), joints, some small valves, things like that?

If its a small number, i hope the price won't end above the 50M U$ (thats roughly what the JF-17 B3 costs). I assume the Malaysian deal had a similar treatment with Israeli components?
Biggest uk components are ejection seat and cobnam nose cone. Rest are small. Costs shouldn't go up much.

Malaysian other option is fa50 which also has Israeli components. Let's see what they want.
 

abingdonboy

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Biggest uk components are ejection seat and cobnam nose cone. Rest are small. Costs shouldn't go up much.

Malaysian other option is fa50 which also has Israeli components. Let's see what they want.
Don't conflate Argentina and RMAF. RMAF doesn't have any issues with British components, LCA in current form is fine for them


Still not clear what HAL have offered RMAF- Mk.1? MK.1A? LIFT (SPORT)?
 

Spitfire9

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Don't conflate Argentina and RMAF. RMAF doesn't have any issues with British components, LCA in current form is fine for them


Still not clear what HAL have offered RMAF- Mk.1? MK.1A? LIFT (SPORT)?
Why would Malaysia (or anyone else) be interested in Mk1? It is about to be superceded by Mk1A.

And about Israeli content, isn't that due to be replaced with Indian?
 
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