LCA TEJAS MK1 & MK1A: News and Discussion

[Assassin 2.0]

I was right.

Tejas with meteor will take it's capabilities to another level even Pakistani F-16 will be at disadvantage against our baby beast.

 

[Bhadra]

Tejas with meteor will take it's capabilities to another level even Pakistani F-16 will be at disadvantage against our baby beast.

When will that be ..... I hope before World War IV ????

Photos..Photos ... and Photos .... but photos do not fly in the sky ....

 

[piKacHHu]

This guy is good. Explains well too.

Screenshot from the video.
View attachment 46393

Good Video !! The analyst seemed to indicate many downside of having Delta wing on such a small aircraft like Tejas. It appears that most of the listed short-comings are being addressed in Mk1A version which might be the reason that its first flight is scheduled quite far from now. However, it is nearly impossible to address sticky issues like higher form drag due to air intake/fuselage and delta design as it would be like redesigning a whole new aircraft.
Another issue that he raised about AoA, High AoA are cornerstone of any Delta fighter but he appears to suggest that AoA capability of Tejas is quite compromised as compared to its peers like Mirage. If it's true, then we had ended up with a draggier aircraft and AoA comparable to any non Delta aircraft like F-18.
I would like to know how we would address this design problem in Mk1A.

 

[Assassin 2.0]

When will that be ..... I hope before World War IV ????

Photos..Photos ... and Photos .... but photos do not fly in the sky ....

It will happen when the airforce will put faith in the tejas and order it.

 

[Karthi]

Saab has flown its active electronically scanned array (AESA) X-band radar in a Gripen fighter for the first time, the company announced on April 24. The flight took place at Saab’s Linköping airfield on April 8. During the 90-minute sortie undertaken by a JAS 39D trials aircraft (serial 800), the radar was successfully tested against aerial targets of opportunity and a range of ground targets.

Speaking to AIN, Anders Carp, senior vice president and head of Saab’s Surveillance business area, noted that the radar demonstrated good capability and stability throughout the test mission. “This is an important step in the development of our new fighter AESA radar,” said Carp in a company statement. “We see great possibilities for the radar, and its modular, adaptable and scalable design means it can also be used for a range of other applications.”Under current plans, Saab expects to continue initial radar trials for around three to four months, with Gripen 800 due to fly around 15 times with the new sensor.

As part of the evaluation, the radar will be employed against fighter targets. Saab has been at the forefront of AESA radar design employing gallium nitride (GaN) technology, having pioneered the technology with its latest iterations of the Giraffe ground- and sea-based radars, electronic warfare equipment, and with the Erieye ER S-band radar employed in the GlobalEye surveillance aircraft. The new AESA array is made up of hundreds of transmit/receive modules (TRMs), each one essentially a mini-electronically scanned radar.

Radars made with GaN semiconductors have better performance—notably in terms of electronic counter-countermeasures, small target detection and wider bandwidth—than most current AESA sensors that employ gallium arsenide (GaAs) TRMs, while consuming less power and generating less heat.

What is currently known simply as the “Saab AESA fighter radar” comprises the GaN array married to the back end of the PS-05/A Mk 4 mechanically-scanned radar that is the current option for the Gripen C/D. Saab has built virtually all of the elements of the radar itself, including the TRMs that are manufactured in a foundry at the company’s primary radar design and production facility, the former Ericsson plant in Gothenburg. The company began ground-testing of the array well over a year ago.

In the Gripen installation, the array is fixed with Saab opting for this configuration due to its simplicity and reliability. The concept of using a repositioner was initially discarded as advanced digital processing can overcome most of the problems associated with radar performance at the outer edges of the scanning volume without adding the internal space required to accommodate a repositioning system.

However, Carp commented that a repositioning system could be employed if trials showed that it was necessary. The array is essentially the same as that which was ordered in late September 2018 for what Saab describes as an “undisclosed U.S. government customer”. At the same time, however, the Pentagon announced the award of an $8.2 million contract to Saab USA for the research and development of an “active aperture array”. The contracting agency was Naval Air Systems Command, with the array being intended for the Office of Naval Research and Office of the Secretary of Defense Foreign Comparative Testing Program.

Saab has already flight-tested this array on another testbed in support of the U.S. program and delivered it to the customer earlier this year. Saab claims that its new ITAR-free array is ready to go to market, and would take between 12 and 18 months to deliver given the need to complete development and testing, and to establish production. The radar has an obvious application as a retrofit for Gripen C/Ds, and could also be included as an option instead of the PS-05/A Mk 4 for new C/D sales, with the potential of revitalizing that aircraft’s sales prospects.

Other opportunities include other fighter types, particularly as an upgrade option. The company sees opportunities for the X-band radar beyond fighters, including installation in advanced trainer and aggressor aircraft. Moreover, the radar has been designed in a modular fashion, and is scalable. This opens up a wide range of applications, including scaled-up radars of almost Erieye ER size for X-band surveillance. Ship- and UAV-based opportunities are also being studied. For now there are no plans to equip the new-generation Gripen E/F with the GaN radar as the GaAs-based Leonardo ES-05 Raven is fully integrated for that requirement, but it could be substituted if a customer specified it. Saab also points out that the work being performed by the company on an AESA radar for the KF-X fighter in collaboration with South Korean industry is a separate project.

 

[Mikesingh]

So the Mk 2 will be redesigned by modifying the air intakes and increasing the length of the fuselage to reduce the drag coefficient as also to add canards and accommodate the GE 414 engine? Now that's a major change. Almost a complete design overhaul!! Instead of calling it Tejas Mk 2, it would be better by re-christening it Toofani, Baaj, Garud or some such!

 

[Defcon 1]

This option (along with possibly F414 ToT) will really open up, if F-18 is chosen as MMRCA. Otherwise US will not allow sale. I am no shill, but I really feel like shilling for F-18 right now.

With its present cost, availability, reliability, maintainability, user friendlyness etc. if TejEx can boast compatibility with Derby-AMRAAM-R77-Astra-Meteor(maybe) along with ASRAAM-R73/K74 combo then it can take on even F-35 in the international market.

Whatever happened to standardisation and reducing logistics costs? Does AMRAAM provides any benefits over derby ER?

 

[abhay rajput]

This option (along with possibly F414 ToT) will really open up, if F-18 is chosen as MMRCA. Otherwise US will not allow sale. I am no shill, but I really feel like shilling for F-18 right now.

With its present cost, availability, reliability, maintainability, user friendlyness etc. if TejEx can boast compatibility with Derby-AMRAAM-R77-Astra-Meteor(maybe) along with ASRAAM-R73/K74 combo then it can take on even F-35 in the international market.

Nothing more than dream for various reasons. Naval tender is pushed back years if not decade. Not to mention that f18 and Rafale both aren't designed for ski take off . We will pay full price for half the capabilities of these aircrafts. Contrary to popular belief in naval aircrafts weapons load matters a lot especially when you don't have the luxury of air refuelling. Nonetheless all defence procurement have been paused due to coronavirus for few years.
I derby er why we don't have that on Tejas.? why we choose old derby .?

 

[Bleh]

Now that's a major change. Almost a complete design overhaul!! Instead of calling it Tejas Mk 2, it would be better by re-christening it Toofani, Baaj, Garud or some such!

That's the plan. MWF will be renamed. Its not Tejas Mark2 anymore.

Whatever happened to standardisation and reducing logistics costs? Does AMRAAM provides any benefits over derby ER?

Nothing more than dream for various reasons. Naval tender is pushed back years if not decade. Not to mention that f18 and Rafale both aren't designed for ski take off . We will pay full price for half the capabilities of these aircrafts. Contrary to popular belief in naval aircrafts weapons load matters a lot especially when you don't have the luxury of air refuelling. Nonetheless all defence procurement have been paused due to coronavirus for few years.
I derby er why we don't have that on Tejas.? why we choose old derby .?

Well if India is going to end up using Meteor, K-77, Astra, Derby-ER (& maybe or not AMRAAM) it would be only better for Tejas to be compatible with all of them... Also a strength in export scenario.

Derby-ER is to come with Elta2052 only. Meteor integration only if the radar is Uttam. All those are possible obstacles ofcourse there maybe no chance until MWF.

Another issue that he raised about AoA, High AoA are cornerstone of any Delta fighter but he appears to suggest that AoA capability of Tejas is quite compromised as compared to its peers like Mirage.

Yeah, it has been discussed before. Ice Age mentioned that teaches design is limited to a maximum of 26° under any condition. Any greater and its draggy wings (necessary to maintain maneuverability) would lose too much energy in a single turn.
But if it is artificially limited by the flight control software, it retains enough energy and prevents its STR from falling. They salvaged what they could from the circumstances and optimised its mediocre performance to remain not vary too much with change in speed and altitude (in the Hushkit interview the test-pilot mentioned that).

Mirage-2000 can achieve greater AoA cannot do this, it never even completes 1 single turn in airshows.

 

[abhay rajput]

That's the plan. MWF will be renamed. Its not Tejas Mark2 anymore.


Well if India is going to end up using Meteor, K-77, Astra, Derby-ER (& maybe or not AMRAAM) it would be only better for Tejas to be compatible with all of them... Also a strength in export scenario.

Derby-ER is to come with Elta2052 only. Meteor integration only if the radar is Uttam. All those are possible obstacles ofcourse there.

It's a big maybe . Right now we know only derby missile with 50km range is integrated on Tejas.
Do you remember there were plans for python missile to but what happened to that .? There were vibrations . In layman's terms it was not suitable for Tejas . I only believe that Astra will see the light of the day on Tejas and maybe derby er on mk1a . Now instead of python they are thinking of asraam
.

 

[Gautam Sarkar]

 

[piKacHHu]

Mirage-2000 can achieve greater AoA cannot do this, it never even completes 1 single turn in airshows.

By 1 single term, you meant Mirage can't complete 1 vertical loop ??

AFAIK, Mirage 2000K is quite a capable aircraft; other than open source information, its performance in DCS simulator against rate fighters (High STRs) like F-16 or F-18 is quite impressive. It's ability to pull high AoA after the merge makes it quite deadly in Dogfights with other fighters weren't being able to complete even one turn and getting shot. As a matter of fact, M2K is a neat conventional Delta aircraft with FBW; with certain drawback in terms of higher drag as you expect from Delta wing, and most crucially its lack of weaponry (Magic/MICA being no match for AMRAAM therefore it sucks in BWR engagement).

For Tejas, what you are implying that performance optimization is achieved through superior flight control laws even though there are certain fundamental flaws in its design. Secondly, apart from improving maintainability and sensor package, whether there be minor design changes in Tejas Mk1A to address the design shortfalls of FOC Tejas?

 

[Bleh]

It's ability to pull high AoA after the merge makes it quite deadly in Dogfights with other fighters weren't being able to complete even one turn and getting shot. As a matter of fact, M2K is a neat conventional Delta aircraft with FBW; with certain drawback in terms of higher drag as you expect from Delta wing

That's ITR you're talking about. It can complete a turn but they don't do it because of how much energy it loses doing so.

Don't listen to me. Go look it up. There are videos. No other aircraft displays multiple turns in airshows, a single full turn is rare.

For Tejas, what you are implying that performance optimization is achieved through superior flight control laws even though there are certain fundamental flaws in its design.

Not implying. Said it quite clearly. Read the older posts. From the info gathered from here'nthere, it seems to be the case. They made the best of the circumstances.

They claimed Mark1A would be lighter with design optimisations, but i doubt it will be anything drastic.

 

[Kchontha]

........................................

Hmms! Look like a perfect marketing ploy for saab gripens.

 

[rohit b3]

These videos simply keep talking about the shortfalls, in this case Drag. I am yet to see a Tejas video made by a foreigner which stresses on the Quad Fly By Wire, Composite structure, Quick Turn around, Superior TW ratio(compared to Gripen) , Advanced Avionics, etc. Basically the strength points of Tejas.

However i am glad Tejas is getting a lot of publicity through these videos. Sweds in the comment section are clearly feeling threatened . Now its upto HAL what they do with this publicity. For starters , they need a strong marketing team.

 

[rohit b3]

However, another fact about the Max Thrust. Its 84.5 KN, not 90 KN. Confirmed with Mr Harsh Vardhan.

 

[scatterStorm]

By 1 single term, you meant Mirage can't complete 1 vertical loop ??

AFAIK, Mirage 2000K is quite a capable aircraft; other than open source information, its performance in DCS simulator against rate fighters (High STRs) like F-16 or F-18 is quite impressive. It's ability to pull high AoA after the merge makes it quite deadly in Dogfights with other fighters weren't being able to complete even one turn and getting shot. As a matter of fact, M2K is a neat conventional Delta aircraft with FBW; with certain drawback in terms of higher drag as you expect from Delta wing, and most crucially its lack of weaponry (Magic/MICA being no match for AMRAAM therefore it sucks in BWR engagement).

For Tejas, what you are implying that performance optimization is achieved through superior flight control laws even though there are certain fundamental flaws in its design. Secondly, apart from improving maintainability and sensor package, whether there be minor design changes in Tejas Mk1A to address the design shortfalls of FOC Tejas?

When you do multiple STR you are required to afterburn, if you are not doing that, you are bleeding kinematic performance, making a jet slow. In airshows, you are performing at low altitudes too. So if you are bleeding energy, making your aircraft slow all the while and burning more fuel, that potentially a bad idea. Because your altitude is dropping at much faster rate. Like few thousand feet's in a matter of mere 10 seconds.

According to SU27 manual, you would want very few, even mentioning to avoid ITR if possible. In case of STR, the more you perform the more you are loosing energy and going slow. Fortunately, the jet was designed to fly at low speeds. Now Tejas is complete different story, you have delta, so multiply 2x the drag.

IMHO, we are expecting tejas to do everything, for Interception roles, its very good but if you expect extreme maneuvering with full combat A2A load ... I'd say satisfactory. Its better we just squeeze two squadrons and Jump on TEDBF/ORCA platform.

 

[Assassin 2.0]

Elbit Systems gets EW Contracts from Indian air force.


DEFENSE BLOG Israeli defense contractor Elbit Systems said on Sunday it won a contract worth about $103 million to supply electronic warfare (EW) suites allegedly for Indian air force. The contract will be carried out over three years and includes long-term integrated logistic support. Under the contract, Elbit Systems will fit the customer’s helicopters with complete EW suites, including countermeasure systems. “Demand for combat-proven EW systems is getting stronger as the electro-magnetic spectrum becomes increasingly contested and the threat to aircraft gets more acute,” said Edgar Maimon, general manager of Elbit Systems


How many jammers we are getting?
THESE Elta jammers will definitely give Tejas cutting edge capability against adversaries.
And people think that tejas is not capable

 

[HariPrasad-1]

That's the plan. MWF will be renamed. Its not Tejas Mark2 anymore.


Well if India is going to end up using Meteor, K-77, Astra, Derby-ER (& maybe or not AMRAAM) it would be only better for Tejas to be compatible with all of them... Also a strength in export scenario.

Derby-ER is to come with Elta2052 only. Meteor integration only if the radar is Uttam. All those are possible obstacles ofcourse there maybe no chance until MWF.

Yeah, it has been discussed before. Ice Age mentioned that teaches design is limited to a maximum of 26° under any condition. Any greater and its draggy wings (necessary to maintain maneuverability) would lose too much energy in a single turn.
But if it is artificially limited by the flight control software, it retains enough energy and prevents its STR from falling. They salvaged what they could from the circumstances and optimised its mediocre performance to remain not vary too much with change in speed and altitude (in the Hushkit interview the test-pilot mentioned that).

Mirage-2000 can achieve greater AoA cannot do this, it never even completes 1 single turn in airshows.

Now imagine this acceleration improving and weight going down. How fantastic shall be the performance of Tejas? This is going to happen in Mk1A.

 

[Bleh]

Now imagine this acceleration improving and weight going down. How fantastic shall be the performance of Tejas? This is going to happen in Mk1A.

That claim for now is somewhere between fantasy and assumption.

They claimed it only once years ago, but actually but did not repeat the claim since 2018. 1000kg weight reduction is near impossible other than drastic redesign (and frankly we have no indication of the level of redesigning Mark1A is going to see). HVT indicated of no drag reducing fuselage redesign, maybe some weight reducing structural modifications. Few hundred kg at best.
Their design teams are rightly concentrating on improving MWF.

What is known as confirmed is that mark 1A will have better maintainable LRUs and increased life, new in flight and mission control softwares as well as avionics improvements with new MFD, comms etc. plus upgrades like EW or AESA.