LCA TEJAS MK1 & MK1A: News and Discussion

[Haldilal]

Ya'll Nibbiars

 

[MirageBlue]

CCM. R73 is only ccm we are having that time[2000] with HMD
Since r73 cant match PAF aim9x, IAF asked for python5
HAL choose asraam for jaguar, and integrating in LCA increase asraam value for money
BVR iDerby and iDerby ER IAF using Derby in spyder sam and iderby er required to counter PAF advanced bvr capability
Astra mk1. low cost option
Astre mk2, stranded bvr for all jets
Spice - PGM with seeker, works with litening pod with out any issue [JDAM EO]
Hammer - missile/ standoff weapon [JSOW]
SAAW - standoff anti runway weapon
Plus, LGB, G bomb etc
And need ARM, AShM, ALTCM, AGM etc

PAF does not have the AIM-9X. The top end western CCM for the PAF is the AIM-9L.

Derby was integrated with the Tejas because of the Indian Navy. The IN had gone in for a Limited Sea Harrier Upgrade (LUSH) at the fag end of the Sea Harrier's operational lives. Being an Israeli upgrade primarily, it used a Elta 2032 radar and naturally the most BVRAAM was the Derby which was integrated with the Elta 2032 already. These LUSH Sea Harriers were in service with the Indian Navy with the Derby BVRAAMs.

The IN originally wanted it's Derby BVRAAMs to be transfereed from the LUSH Sea Harrier upgrade fleet to the LCA Navy fleet. Once the Sea Harriers retired, those Derby BVRAAMs were not compatible with the MiG-29K and were of no use to the IN.

As it is, the IN had only limited stocks (~20 units) of Derby missiles which were then transferred to the IAF since the Tejas Mk1 entered service but the LCA Navy did not.

However, given the commonality between the Derby BVRAAMs used by combat fighters and the SpyDer SAMs, of which there were very large numbers ordered (~675 units of Derby BVRAAMs for SpyDer SAMs), it made plenty of sense to integrate the Derby BVRAAM.

The IAF was not and is not interested in the R-77 BVRAAM for the Tejas fleet, hence no integration activities were done. Instead the Derby was considered suitable for an interim period till the longer range Astra Mk1 entered service.

AFAIK, no i-Derby ER has been ordered. SIPRI's database for arms transfers also shows no sale of i-Derby ERs to India.

R-73E was procured in large numbers for the MiG-29 and Su-30 fleets and also was integrated with Mirage-2000s to give them a much more capable CCM than the Matra Magic-II CCMs that the pre-upgrade Mirage-2000s were integrated with. It only naturally made sense that the Tejas should also be integrated with the R-73E.

Back when the choice was made by the IAF to equip Tejas with R-73E, the Tejas was integrated with the much lighter and shorter range R-60 Aphid CCMs (one of which shot down the PN Atlantique, fired by an IAF MiG-21bis). It took a fair bit of re-design to change the CCM from the 43.5 kg R-60 missile on the outboard pylons, to the the 105 kg R-73E missile. It actually delayed the LCA program to some degree but it had to be done since the R-60 was obsolete whereas the R-73E was state of the art with the ability to be slaved to a HMDS.

 

[MirageBlue]

Finally Astra on Tejas.

But why the heck so many similar type of missiles on Tejas:
1. First R-73M then Python 5 then ASRAAM.
2. First Derby then Astra
3. First Spice then Hammer then SAAW

If this is just to pave the way from foreign to swadeshi then it is completely fine but if they want all the weapons then it is pretty messed up.

Python V makes ample sense due to commonality with the SpyDer SAM batteries. However, Python V had one big disadvantage- that is the Python V could not be carried on a dual rack due to the large number of aero surfaces on it. Weight is 105 kg, so heavier than ASRAAM but same as R-73E. Big advantage is that they can use stocks from SpyDer SAM batteries.

ASRAAM - light weight (88 kg) with a big motor that allows it to be used almost to BVR ranges. And with no aero surfaces, hence allowing for dual carriage on a single pylon, as is planned for the Tejas Mk1A. All in all a very good CCM that gives the flexibility for the Tejas Mk1A to carry 2 ASRAAMs on 1 outboard pylon and 1 SPJ (Elta 8222 SPJ or the indigenous ASPJ) on the other outboard pylon.

Spice 2000 is a big, heavy PGM. India bought limited stocks of these (100 units) of which some were used during the Balakot strike. More could be ordered but as of now integrating these will allow the Tejas Mk1/Mk1A fleet to use these stocks.

AASM Hammer is a lighter, smaller PGM with a 250 kg bomb with a guidance kit at the front and a REK (range extension kit) at the back end. Makes for a very precise bomb, of which the Tejas Mk1A can carry 4 in any mission (2 X in-board pylons, 2 X mid-board pylons). A single Tejas Mk1A could then attack 4 separate targets in one pass!

the IAF bought 300 units of the AASM Hammer for its Rafale fleet and the same will also be shared with the Tejas Mk1A fleet. Expect larger orders later on as the Tejas Mk1A fleet grows.

 

[johnj]

Spice 2000 is a big, heavy PGM. India bought limited stocks of these (100 units) of which some were used during the Balakot strike. More could be ordered but as of now integrating these will allow the Tejas Mk1/Mk1A fleet to use these stocks.
AASM Hammer is a lighter, smaller PGM with a 250 kg bomb with a guidance kit at the front and a REK (range extension kit) at the back end. Makes for a very precise bomb, of which the Tejas Mk1A can carry 4 in any mission (2 X in-board pylons, 2 X mid-board pylons). A single Tejas Mk1A could then attack 4 separate targets in one pass!
the IAF bought 300 units of the AASM Hammer for its Rafale fleet and the same will also be shared with the Tejas Mk1A fleet. Expect larger orders later on as the Tejas Mk1A fleet grows.

Spice 2000 is guidance kit, to convert unguided bomb into eo/gps/ins guided one
AASM Hammer is not a guidance kit, but a missile with a range of 70km, eo/gps/ins guidance kit and a motor plus a warhead

 

[Dr_Deep]

For the want of an Engine we lost an Industry and skills. How to destroy a Figher Jet Program built domestically Indian style. The Babus being chindigiri ..didnt asisted in super sonic jet engine development in timely manner hence the we lost a potential Fighter Jet and became the slaves of Foreign imports..

 

[MirageBlue]

Spice 2000 is guidance kit, to convert unguided bomb into eo/gps/ins guided one
AASM Hammer is not a guidance kit, but a missile with a range of 70km, eo/gps/ins guidance kit and a motor plus a warhead

And you did a bit of research before stating this? Nope.

It is ALSO a guidance kit at the front and REK at the rear with a standard Mk.82 bomb at the center for the 250 kg type and Mk.84 at the center for a 1000 kg type.

AASM Hammer Safran page

AASM Hammer™ is compatible with different standard bomb bodies (125, 250, 500 and 1000 kg). Autonomous and insensitive to jamming, this weapon system can be launched from low altitude, over rough terrain.

Check out the AASM brochure on this Safran page that has the diagrams as well.

 

[johnj]

And you did a bit of research before stating this? Nope.

Yes I did

It is ALSO a guidance kit at the front and REK at the rear with a standard Mk.82 bomb at the center for the 250 kg type and Mk.84 at the center for a 1000 kg type.

What are you talking about, Spice 2000 or entire Spice family ??
AASM Hammer -

The main difference b/w two is one a guidance kit developed to convert unguided bomb into PGM and other one with guidance kit + motor to convert unguided bomb into AGM, in simple spice is PGM and hammer is AGM/powered PGM , Spice also having powered version like hammer missile.
hammer having multiple versions depends on guidance

on the other hand Spice mainly use EO/INS/GPS

Rear part of spice having control surfaces and rear part of hammer having both control surfaces and motor,
Smaller versions of spice having wings for ER

 

[vin bharat mahan]

Python V makes ample sense due to commonality with the SpyDer SAM batteries. However, Python V had one big disadvantage- that is the Python V could not be carried on a dual rack due to the large number of aero surfaces on it. Weight is 105 kg, so heavier than ASRAAM but same as R-73E. Big advantage is that they can use stocks from SpyDer SAM batteries.

ASRAAM - light weight (88 kg) with a big motor that allows it to be used almost to BVR ranges. And with no aero surfaces, hence allowing for dual carriage on a single pylon, as is planned for the Tejas Mk1A. All in all a very good CCM that gives the flexibility for the Tejas Mk1A to carry 2 ASRAAMs on 1 outboard pylon and 1 SPJ (Elta 8222 SPJ or the indigenous ASPJ) on the other outboard pylon.

Spice 2000 is a big, heavy PGM. India bought limited stocks of these (100 units) of which some were used during the Balakot strike. More could be ordered but as of now integrating these will allow the Tejas Mk1/Mk1A fleet to use these stocks.

AASM Hammer is a lighter, smaller PGM with a 250 kg bomb with a guidance kit at the front and a REK (range extension kit) at the back end. Makes for a very precise bomb, of which the Tejas Mk1A can carry 4 in any mission (2 X in-board pylons, 2 X mid-board pylons). A single Tejas Mk1A could then attack 4 separate targets in one pass!

the IAF bought 300 units of the AASM Hammer for its Rafale fleet and the same will also be shared with the Tejas Mk1A fleet. Expect larger orders later on as the Tejas Mk1A fleet grows.

for close range WVR, ASRAAM is better choice than python 5 in tejas 1 nd 1a...coz tejas 1 nd 1a lacks infrared sensor. with ASRAAM it get more range (40-50 km) of IR searching, than python 5 (20-30 km range). it also lighter weight. nd come with smooth body.

 

[Haldilal]

Ya'll Nibbiars

 

[johnj]

for close range WVR, ASRAAM is better choice than python 5 in tejas 1 nd 1a...coz tejas 1 nd 1a lacks infrared sensor. with ASRAAM it get more range (40-50 km) of IR searching, than python 5 (20-30 km range). it also lighter weight. nd come with smooth body.

ASRAAM = Advanced Short Range Air-to-Air Missile
ASRAAM is not a BVR but short range missile with range around 25km
Both python 5 and asraam having similar range. python uses ccd+iir seeker and asraam uses iir seeker.
Both having limited bvr capability, asraam tvc and python uses multiple control surfaces to achieve extreme high maneuverability
Also tejas capable of carrying litening pod which provide irst feature, plus both ccm works with/without irst in jet. spice and hammer also depend on litening pod for cas

 

[Aniruddha Mulay]

ASRAAM = Advanced Short Range Air-to-Air Missile
ASRAAM is not a BVR but short range missile with range around 25km
Both python 5 and asraam having similar range. python uses ccd+iir seeker and asraam uses iir seeker.
Both having limited bvr capability, asraam tvc and python uses multiple control surfaces to achieve extreme high maneuverability
Also tejas capable of carrying litening pod which provide irst feature, plus both ccm works with/without irst in jet. spice and hammer also depend on litening pod for cas

ASRAAM has a reported range of 25+ km and can reach upto 50km in some scenarios as per reports.
So safe to say it can be called a short to medium range A2A missile.

Advanced Short Range Air to Air Missile (ASRAAM) - Think Defence

The AIM-132 ASRAAM is a high-speed, highly manoeuvrable, heat-seeking, air-to-air missile.

www.thinkdefence.co.uk

 

[DumbPilot]

Ya'll Nibbiars

View attachment 218956

someone put this image in the wikipedia representation and replace the current one! what a rugged beast.

 

[johnj]

ASRAAM has a reported range of 25+ km and can reach upto 50km in some scenarios as per reports.
So safe to say it can be called a short to medium range A2A missile.

Advanced Short Range Air to Air Missile (ASRAAM) - Think Defence

The AIM-132 ASRAAM is a high-speed, highly manoeuvrable, heat-seeking, air-to-air missile.

www.thinkdefence.co.uk

If you consider this

and I'm unable to find any scenarios in which asraam can reach 50km except agm role. just exaggeration like pl15 can reach 300km
python and asraam having similar ranges, 25km+

 

[Aniruddha Mulay]

If you consider this View attachment 218973
and I'm unable to find any scenarios in which asraam can reach 50km except agm role. just exaggeration like pl15 can reach 300km
python and asraam having similar ranges, 25km+

The ASRAAM is meant as a replacement for AIM-9 Sidewinder which has a max stated range of 35km.
The ASRAAM is about 30% thicker when compared to the AIM-9 while weighing only 2.7kg more, which means it can carry more fuel and burn for longer and more efficiently given that it was developed a good 30-35 years after the Sidewinder.
So the reported 50km range for the ASRAAM is kind of believable but obviously would need ideal conditions to reach that number, which are less likely to occur during conflict.

 

[johnj]

The ASRAAM is meant as a replacement for AIM-9 Sidewinder which has a max stated range of 35km.
The ASRAAM is about 30% thicker when compared to the AIM-9 while weighing only 2.7kg more, which means it can carry more fuel and burn for longer and more efficiently given that it was developed a good 30-35 years after the Sidewinder.
So the reported 50km range for the ASRAAM is kind of believable but obviously would need ideal conditions to reach that number, which are less likely to occur during conflict.

There is no reported 50km range, & if you consider applying same theory, pl15 is heavier and using advanced motor with dual pulse, supporting 300+ km range
Till date I'm unable to find a reliable source of asraam 50km range. Even some people consider elm2052 is similar to an/apg77, but none of those sources are reliable
Now, even if you consider 50km range, UK only sell 25km+ missile, not the advanced/original version
Exported version of meteor having less range compared to original version.

 

[MirageBlue]

ASRAAM = Advanced Short Range Air-to-Air Missile
ASRAAM is not a BVR but short range missile with range around 25km
Both python 5 and asraam having similar range. python uses ccd+iir seeker and asraam uses iir seeker.
Both having limited bvr capability, asraam tvc and python uses multiple control surfaces to achieve extreme high maneuverability
Also tejas capable of carrying litening pod which provide irst feature, plus both ccm works with/without irst in jet. spice and hammer also depend on litening pod for cas

25 km is almost BVR, especially in the context of the Indian subcontinent where visibility can be very limited due to various reasons. This was mentioned in an article long ago on Bharat Rakshak, about how surprised the author was when he got to fly in the US where the atmospheric visibility was excellent as compared to India where haze is much greater and overall visibility much lower.

Python V range is lower ~ 20 km due to the higher aerodynamic drag of the greater number of aero surfaces.

 

[pankaj nema]

 

[pankaj nema]

 

[spacemarine2023]

Great achievement for sooth asia, sooth asia’s own indigenous fighter has tested sooth asias indigenous BVR.. congratulations to sooth asia

 

[Defcon 1]

And some said that Astra will never be tested from Tejas
@Chinmoy you would remember that poster I think