LCA TEJAS MK1 & MK1A: News and Discussion

[abingdonboy]

If we can't win this deal where each and every thing was on our side then forget about selling to other nations where competition is complex
This deal was very near to our mouth but Koreans snatched it like crows very tactically
I think it's better to focus in building for ourselves and leave export for a decade atleast let's build the capability to negotiate on our terms
Humse na ho payga
Anyway they tried hard
They must be appreciated

How was everything in LCA’s favour? Is anything LCA was always the outside contender here and KA-50 the clear favourite from the outset. This purchase is literally for a LIFT- that’s exactly what the KA-50 is. Most of LCA’s benefits are outside of the purview of a pure LIFT competition. In a competition of a dedicated LIFT vs a 2 seat version of a combat fighter the LIFT is the favourite every time.

If LCA was going into competitions for MRCA where countries are looking to replace their legacy fighters like MIG-21/F5 then it has a decent chance

the thing that pi$$es me off the most about this situation is purely the Indian media once again exposing themselves as hacks with no credibility. For weeks they said LCA was favourite and even a contract was weeks/days away, I never believed it because I know how full of bs they are but the constant stream of articles saying LCA is favourite leaking into international publications thanks to Indian media is just embarrassing.

 

[omaebakabaka]

How was everything in LCA’s favour? Is anything LCA was always the outside contender here and KA-50 the clear favourite from the outset. This purchase is literally for a LIFT- that’s exactly what the KA-50 is. Most of LCA’s benefits are outside of the purview of a pure LIFT competition. In a competition of a dedicated LIFT vs a 2 seat version of a combat fighter the LIFT is the favourite every time.

If LCA was going into competitions for MRCA where countries are looking to replace their legacy fighters like MIG-21/F5 then it has a decent chance

the thing that pi$$es me off the most about this situation is purely the Indian media once again exposing themselves as hacks with no credibility. For weeks they said LCA was favourite and even a contract was weeks/days away, I never believed it because I know how full of bs they are but the constant stream of articles saying LCA is favourite leaking into international publications thanks to Indian media is just embarrassing.

So many were obsessed with this nonsensical export focus for Tejas like it is the defining thing to validate its purpose. It is too premature and not a good move even if it were to win. Odds are that it will get some bad publicity even if minor issues pop up as the competetors mostly western will magnify it 100 times. I will repeat again, domestic acceptance as main line fighter is what we need first and foremost.

 

[WarmongerLSK]

(almost off topic?) Does someone know how to translate a document from Korean to English? Found an interesting PDF on the T-50's FLCS(flight computer) control laws:

http://www.koreascience.or.kr/article/JAKO200631036996962.pdf

I attached the translated file. Translated using Yandex's image OCR.

 

[abingdonboy]

From an IAF personnel who trained on M88:

Doc, my younger brother too had some uncharitable views on Tejas earlier however post his new posting in Squadron 17, and spending time on M88, he has mellowed down.
His latest view is that Mk1A is as good as Rafale in terms of handling.. will be a very potent beast by Mk2

He says Tejas has better and more responsive engine, better TWR and also control laws are no slouch. His opinion is that IAF simply latched on Navy's demand of higher thrust otherwise current engine is more than enough.
Only few Aerodynamic chinks (due to short frame).

TWR may or may not be better, depending on what config we are talking about.
No surprises F404 is better, but its working better on LCA would indicate the intakes are not creating any bottleneck, bursting myth that LCA intakes are smaller than req and dont allow full thrust.

He has trained on M88 for more than a year in france

Eh I’m not that convinced. The LCA’s TWR is just below 1 I think and MK.2’s will be ~1.

this isn’t a HUGE issue and can be mitigated anyway, LCA MK.2 with canards will have very good manoeuvrability IMO, I just hope it’s a 9G capable fighter from the start

worth a watch as Gripen is very similar to the LCA in terms of size and engine but obviously no canards for MK.1

 

[abingdonboy]

So many were obsessed with this nonsensical export focus for Tejas like it is the defining thing to validate its purpose. It is too premature and not a good move even if it were to win. Odds are that it will get some bad publicity even if minor issues pop up as the competetors mostly western will magnify it 100 times. I will repeat again, domestic acceptance as main line fighter is what we need first and foremost.

I would just like it to happen so HAL and it’s suppliers can get revenue streams away from the fickle and unpredictable Indian armed forces. It’s a capital intensive game and being so reliant on the babus in GoI and MoD is always going to hold them back

 

[abingdonboy]

I guess it's an interesting thought. Why is IAF goign with GE engine? Why not manufacture the Mk1A that is being done and then do Mk1b with a M88 to make parts easier to make and improve supply? Mk2 and Mk2a etc will be incremental improvements but they need the Mk1As first

GOI and HAL screwed up by selecting the GE engine instead of the EJ2000 when they were looking at options a decade ago. Just because GE option was marginally cheaper they’ve now made the entire Indian fighter industry (LCA, MK.2, TEDBF, AMCA MK.1) dependant on the most unreliable partner india has

Sometimes I wonder if it’s purely myopia or how much foreign influence plays a part because more often than not in years gone by Indian leadership has made the most self sabotaging decisions

 

[abingdonboy]

You are missing the point. We need to combat qualify the LCA for boosting sales overseas.

I don’t think it needs combat experience (very few nations can get that), it just needs to be operationalised fully and treated like the rest of the frontline fleet- accumulate the hours, send it on foreign exercises, get pilot exchanges going etc etc. if IAF continues its step motherly treatment of LCA then it will always have an asterisk over it.

another reason I’m so disappointed it couldn’t go to cobra warrior earlier this year in the U.K. that would’ve been a landmark moment for the project just like a few other deployments have been.

 

[omaebakabaka]

I would just like it to happen so HAL and it’s suppliers can get revenue streams away from the fickle and unpredictable Indian armed forces. It’s a capital intensive game and being so reliant on the babus in GoI and MoD is always going to hold them back

It will be drop in the bucket but risks are high, ALH was inducted and served at home before it exported and that is a better strategy for Tejas also but being a runner up might give HAL an edge on the domestic side. If you have a good product then other things will follow.

 

[NutCracker]

Joke is on the FA 50. Yet to fire a single bloody BVRAAM. Does the FA 50 even have a HMDS yet? If Tejas Mk1A is experimental so is FA-50 Block 20.
You really need to stop being so harsh on Indian products. Beggars like Malaysians can't be choosers. The two front-runners to their jet repalcement program are almost above budget for them despite being so called "experimental aircraft".

And RMAF needs new jets to replace their old mig29. I don't understand why the hell they want to chose a system that is made for "trainer" as primary role KA50.

Seems RMAF and their bureaucracy is heavily corrupted too.

It's like they neither want to buy Chinese equipment to anger US ,nor want to buy capable equipment to avoid intimidating China.

 

[abingdonboy]

It will be drop in the bucket but risks are high, ALH was inducted and served at home before it exported and that is a better strategy for Tejas also but being a runner up might give HAL an edge on the domestic side. If you have a good product then other things will follow.

Drop in the bucket? 100s of millions are still large amounts for this cash starved industry that has to beg and wait for cash injections from babudom. Extra revenue will give HAL the ability to allocate resources internally themselves and do more independent R&D as they had done for MK1A, HTT-40 etc

 

[omaebakabaka]

Drop in the bucket? 100s of millions are still large amounts for this cash starved industry that has to beg and wait for cash injections from babudom. Extra revenue will give HAL the ability to allocate resources internally themselves and do more independent R&D as they had done for MK1A, HTT-40 etc

Can you imagine how domestic lobbies will weaponize if it runs into any manufactured bad publicity? Who exports like that when it yet to see in its main role in domestic airforce ? This will be worse than mig 35 in terms of risks.....not everyone carries the influence to push products like US or Eurkrops do....exports time will come later naturally as the closest to this segment is only grippen when it comes to non-Russian choice

 

[Super Flanker]

TBH even if Tejas does not receive an export order now, I won't be disheartened, what matters to me is the fact that we are pitching our products to other nations and trying to compete with more experienced players like SK, Russia etc. When the time comes, Tejas will definitely get its first export order. This is just the start. Look at Rafales, even it was not an export success at the beginning, later on It received so many orders from Airforce's around the world.

By the way, I find one advantage associated with these tenders, you know what that is? It is that the countries that we are pitching Tejas to are asking for the strict replacement of 3rd party components.

For example take Argentina, Argentina has made it clear that it wants any aircraft it selects not having any British Components. This is an advantage for us, why? Because with such a request HAL will have no other choice but to look for replacement of these british components with Indian or other 3rd party components. In the process Tejas is getting more "Indigenised".

Same is the case with Malaysia, Malaysia has said that any fighter that it will select should not have any Israeli components in it. For example take the current radar used in Tejas that is Elta EL/M-2032 which is an Israeli Radar, as Malaysia said that They don't want Israeli components so India instead offered UTTAM AESA Radar in place of Elta radar.

This is my opinion on this.

 

[LondonParisTokyo]

GOI and HAL screwed up by selecting the GE engine instead of the EJ2000 when they were looking at options a decade ago. Just because GE option was marginally cheaper they’ve now made the entire Indian fighter industry (LCA, MK.2, TEDBF, AMCA MK.1) dependant on the most unreliable partner india has

Sometimes I wonder if it’s purely myopia or how much foreign influence plays a part because more often than not in years gone by Indian leadership has made the most self sabotaging decisions

Nothing is impossible. Tejas has barely gotten off the ground. Mk2 is a joke, AMCA is a nothingburger. Kaveri is going to be the answer to many woes, if and only if Indian engineers are permitted to get it off the ground. Must watch out for Israeli spies though

 

[LondonParisTokyo]

TBH even if Tejas does not receive an export order now, I won't be disheartened, what matters to me is the fact that we are pitching our products to other nations and trying to compete with more experienced players like SK, Russia etc. When the time comes, Tejas will definitely get its first export order. This is just the start. Look at Rafales, even it was not an export success at the beginning, later on It received so many orders from Airforce's around the world.

By the way, I find one advantage associated with these tenders, you know what that is? It is that the countries that we are pitching Tejas to are asking for the strict replacement of 3rd party components.

For example take Argentina, Argentina has made it clear that it wants any aircraft it selects not having any British Components. This is an advantage for us, why? Because with such a request HAL will have no other choice but to look for replacement of these british components with Indian or other 3rd party components. In the process Tejas is getting more "Indigenised".

Same is the case with Malaysia, Malaysia has said that any fighter that it will select should not have any Israeli components in it. For example take the current radar used in Tejas that is Elta EL/M-2032 which is an Israeli Radar, as Malaysia said that They don't want Israeli components so India instead offered UTTAM AESA Radar in place of Elta radar.

This is my opinion on this.

The mere fact that Indians are getting excited about exporting a plane that India isn't even using in it's main fleet is ridiculous. It's like saying you have developed an exciting product for your company, but you yourself don't use it and try to sell it to somebody else. Anybody that is interested is a fool. Anybody that purchases it? A moron.

edit: I can't wait for the fools to come in and start talking about how many planes India "will have" or some other crap. The fact is there's only like 11 planes or something in the inventory? What a joke. If India had 50 planes or 100 planes already operating, it would be a different story.

 

[Super Flanker]

The mere fact that Indians are getting excited about exporting a plane that India isn't even using in it's main fleet is ridiculous

Who told you that India is not using Tejas in its fleet? Already two Squadrons of Tejas MK-1 are Operational in IAF. Search up Squadron Flying Daggers and Squadron Flying Bullets.

It's like saying you have developed an exciting product for your company, but you yourself don't use it and try to sell it to somebody else

I have not understood your meaning of "you yourself don't use it". If you can elaborate on this a bit further then it will be very much appreciated.

Anybody that is interested is a fool. Anybody that purchases it? A moron.

The people who are interested in the product know more about who is a fool or a moron.

 

[Abdus Salem killed]

Nothing is impossible. Tejas has barely gotten off the ground. Mk2 is a joke, AMCA is a nothingburger. Kaveri is going to be the answer to many woes, if and only if Indian engineers are permitted to get it off the ground. Must watch out for Israeli spies though

Yeah a joke that will fly in 2023 yes ?

 

[omaebakabaka]

Nothing is impossible. Tejas has barely gotten off the ground. Mk2 is a joke, AMCA is a nothingburger. Kaveri is going to be the answer to many woes, if and only if Indian engineers are permitted to get it off the ground. Must watch out for Israeli spies though

This is some unwarranted and unsubstantiated criticism for a country that has a flying aircraft and matured understanding of aerodynamics and integration software and so many other things. Why is mk2 a failure? Export focus is premature but it could be good publicity for down the line. Show me another country that has done this with pea sized budget and barely existing industry supply chain?

 

[abingdonboy]

Can you imagine how domestic lobbies will weaponize if it runs into any manufactured bad publicity? Who exports like that when it yet to see in its main role in domestic airforce ? This will be worse than mig 35 in terms of risks.....not everyone carries the influence to push products like US or Eurkrops do....exports time will come later naturally as the closest to this segment is only grippen when it comes to non-Russian choice

I don’t really go along with this argument and it sounds cowardly. Let the product speak for itself, I don’t think HAL/LCA has anything to fear going up against the FA-50, JF-17 etc.

The MK1A order is there so it’s a bit moot to say it’s not going to be on the frontlines

 

[lcafanboy]

 

[Anibesh acharya]

GOI and HAL screwed up by selecting the GE engine instead of the EJ2000 when they were looking at options a decade ago. Just because GE option was marginally cheaper they’ve now made the entire Indian fighter industry (LCA, MK.2, TEDBF, AMCA MK.1) dependant on the most unreliable partner india has

Sometimes I wonder if it’s purely myopia or how much foreign influence plays a part because more often than not in years gone by Indian leadership has made the most self sabotaging decisions

UK is more reliable partner ? What is deference between UK and usa ? UK is a state of USA .