LCA TEJAS MK1 & MK1A: News and Discussion

Super Flanker

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I am curious to know as to what is the general opinion of Tejas among the Argentinian public? Are they negative? Are they positive? Etc.

In the case of Malaysia I know most Malaysians have a very negative opinion about Tejas. I have seen comments like "Tejas is Bad plane"/"India is not a friendly country"/"JF-17 is superior to the Tejas"/"This Tejas took more than 35 years" and the list of cringe comments from the Malaysians are pretty much "endless".

Like that I would like to know, is there such negative biase towards Tejas in Argentina too? Like what is their general opinion as I had asked earlier. @Roland55
 

johnj

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True. Mate Can you compare Range, Payload,Avionics, Max G Load between two? Shall give prespective
Range, Payload similar, fa 50 having small advantages. Max G, slight advantage to mk1a , Avionics similar, In other words range, payload, range similar, the major difference is one is a fighter & other one a trainer jet.
LCA having better EW suite, advanced flight control, etc.
 

Blademaster

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I am curious to know as to what is the general opinion of Tejas among the Argentinian public? Are they negative? Are they positive? Etc.

In the case of Malaysia I know most Malaysians have a very negative opinion about Tejas. I have seen comments like "Tejas is Bad plane"/"India is not a friendly country"/"JF-17 is superior to the Tejas"/"This Tejas took more than 35 years" and the list of cringe comments from the Malaysians are pretty much "endless".

Like that I would like to know, is there such negative biase towards Tejas in Argentina too? Like what is their general opinion as I had asked earlier. @Roland55
Because we are hindus not muslims.
 

AnantS

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I am curious to know as to what is the general opinion of Tejas among the Argentinian public? Are they negative? Are they positive? Etc.

In the case of Malaysia I know most Malaysians have a very negative opinion about Tejas. I have seen comments like "Tejas is Bad plane"/"India is not a friendly country"/"JF-17 is superior to the Tejas"/"This Tejas took more than 35 years" and the list of cringe comments from the Malaysians are pretty much "endless".

Like that I would like to know, is there such negative biase towards Tejas in Argentina too? Like what is their general opinion as I had asked earlier. @Roland55
negative. They like JF17 more. Thats what you get from ytube
 

Roland55

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I think the interest of Argentina on tejas is bcoz that they want to make the deal competitive i.e pressuring China to reduce the price of JF-17
The only thing keeping the JF-17 as an option is a political choice by the current gov, lets not forget that the FAA did in fact went to china in 2015 to conduct an evaluation and the results weren't bad, but there was a major concern with the logistical supply chain of the JF-17.

if the current adm, goes for another term...the JF-17 might have more chances...if not, ill say its gonna be determined between something American, Something Indian or something Israeli..
I am curious to know as to what is the general opinion of Tejas among the Argentinian public? Are they negative? Are they positive? Etc.

In the case of Malaysia I know most Malaysians have a very negative opinion about Tejas. I have seen comments like "Tejas is Bad plane"/"India is not a friendly country"/"JF-17 is superior to the Tejas"/"This Tejas took more than 35 years" and the list of cringe comments from the Malaysians are pretty much "endless".

Like that I would like to know, is there such negative biase towards Tejas in Argentina too? Like what is their general opinion as I had asked earlier. @Roland55
Ill say its a "mixed bag", there is a decent sized community that follows this topics, but like i say...its mixed, some people think its good, others dont...some think that we should go for Mk.2 instead of the Mk.1A, some point at what happened with the Ecuadorian Dhruvs and argue that the same will happen to us, others say its a much solid choice than the JF-17, etc..etc.

Still is a very..."unknown" plane for most people here
 

omaebakabaka

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To make exports happen you need geopolitical heft and leverage. MEA should see their job as being salesmen of Indian products- not just defence stuff too. India gave BD a $500m line of credit to use by 2029 on Indian origin defence equipment and they are struggling to even spend this because of all the red tape involved

Chinese know how to get business done especially in these small nations. JF-17 probably has a better chance for BD/SL. It’s absurd that ALH didn’t get pushed on BD and SL
True but I think we are expecting too much in a compressed period of give or take 6 years of Modiji's sarkaar....exports will be good but I would like to see more adoption domestic as it will replace massive import budget and defence can be qualitatively expanded with that additional savings. Exports will naturally come once its adopted as main line in country of origin, we are not going to replace most big players soon anyway in export market.
 

Dark Sorrow

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No way we are getting clearance from UK to sell Tejas to Argentina. Even GE engine would have some IP from GE UK or UK based companies. The time for development, testing and installation of replacement would take years. It’s an feel good wish list. Malaysia and Egypt are our good hope
Bigger problem will be that we can't be change are semiconductor products, sensors and actuators.
A lot of semiconductor products and sensors have either are UK designed (IP belongs to UK based company) or has come UK controlled sub-system/component.
 

Rajaraja Chola

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Bigger problem will be that we can't be change are semiconductor products, sensors and actuators.
A lot of semiconductor products and sensors have either are UK designed (IP belongs to UK based company) or has come UK controlled sub-system/component.
Most of the Chip companies design are based on ARM architecture which is based out of UK. I have never really seen UK go for that level of sanctions and I don’t think it will go for that level of sanctions.

but even that refueling section, it’s probe, actuators, motors, radôme, MB seat, GE engine parts etc.Can’t see how we are going to win order and I hope HAL doesn’t invest one more single rupee for Argentinian order.
 

MonaLazy

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Most of the Chip companies design are based on ARM architecture which is based out of UK.

I hope HAL doesn’t invest one more single rupee for Argentinian order.
What crap! India is by itself a chip design powerhouse. 1 in 5 of the world's best chip designers right here.


Most global semiconductor design companies have set up design R&D innovation centers in India owing to exceptional semiconductor design talent pool making up to 20% of world’s semiconductor design engineers and high number of design Patents/ IPR registered in India.
I hope they go all out and try their level best to win it. Be it Argentina or Malaysia or Egypt or elsewhere. Each and every sale means influence, and can lead to a deluge of sales down the road. Provide great service and respond to foreign customer feedback promptly. Indian weapons should have a reputation for being relatively cheap, yet high on quality, reliability and sophistication. Otherwise the present movers and shakers like US & EU have the expensive end covered, while Russia and China corner the not so rich markets.
 

AnantS

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What crap! India is by itself a chip design powerhouse. 1 in 5 of the world's best chip designers right here.




I hope they go all out and try their level best to win it. Be it Argentina or Malaysia or Egypt or elsewhere. Each and every sale means influence, and can lead to a deluge of sales down the road. Provide great service and respond to foreign customer feedback promptly. Indian weapons should have a reputation for being relatively cheap, yet high on quality, reliability and sophistication. Otherwise the present movers and shakers like US & EU have the expensive end covered, while Russia and China corner the not so rich markets.
We might have some workforce, but zilch IPs in this area.
 

MonaLazy

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We might have some workforce, but zilch IPs in this area.
What IP are you talking about? & pertinent to this thread how does that IP apply to on-board computers for Tejas?


While the Mk1’s DFCC was based on a 386 series processor, the new DFCC will feature PowerPC-based computing architecture with improved performance.
These are pretty generic & open architectures which are multi purpose- will do anything they are commanded to do. Is that not sufficient for the task at hand? What do we need IP or local chip fabs for?

edit- I see there are some 15 LRUs that are sourced from UK. HAL is trying to replace them with Indian components. As @Roland55 said that contract will happen post 2023-24 after elections so there is at least 2 years to find replacements.


India prepared to eliminate UK components from Tejas jet fighter, of interest for Argentina


On Monday's piece on the visit of Indian External Affairs minister Dr. S. Jaishankar to Buenos Aires we reported the interest of Argentina to strengthen bilateral defense links and cooperation, and at the same time its interest in the fully made Tejas jet fighter to equip the Argentine Air Force.

However the potential contract could be curtailed given the British embargo on arms sales to Argentina, which has so far frustrated a couple of deals, particularly for those aircraft with Baker's pilot ejector seat. Nevertheless Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, HAL, is making an effort to replace all British components of the Tejas jet fighter, with Indian made components.

According to Indian media the LCA Tejas is a single engine, delta wing, light multirole fighter. Currently, HAL is set to export the Mark 1A variant of the Tejas that features a new avionics suite, including an Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar, DARE Unified Electronic Warfare Suite (UEWS) and an Onboard Oxygen Generation System (OBOGS) developed by the Defense Bioengineering and Electro medical Laboratory (DEBEL) among other upgrades.

“A radome is an electromagnetically transparent protective shield that encloses mmWave Radar sensors and the antenna. It protects the mmWave antenna and electronics from external environmental effects such as rain, sunlight, and wind, providing a structural, weatherproof enclosure. The LCA Tejas featured a radome from Cobham Limited, a UK aerospace manufacturer. The indigenous Uttam radars will most likely replace it,” Girish Linganna, Aerospace & Defense Analyst explained.

According to Girish Linganna, “Another culprit is Dunlop, the Scottish brand that makes the tyres for the LCA Tejas. Indian manufacturer MRF Tyres is reportedly replacing Dunlop. Over 15 LRUs were sourced from various British manufacturers for the LCA Tejas. Currently, HAL seems to be calling upon the Indian industry, including various Public Sector Undertakings (PSUs) like Bharat Electronics Ltd.,(BEL) and Bharat Heavy Electricals Ltd. (BHEL), for innovative indigenous replacements to secure the Argentine contract.”

Ejector seats are a vital component and safety feature of fighter jets. Worldwide, the British manufacturer, Martin Baker, provides ejection seats for over 90 air forces. The LCA also sports a Martin-Baker ejection seat. The company has pioneered the ‘zero-zero’ ejection seat that ensures the safe extraction and landing of the entire crew from zero airspeed and zero altitude. Finding an alternative without compromise is an arduous task that HAL must do to ensure the finalization of the order from Argentina.

HAL is currently in talks with NPP Zvezda, a Russian manufacturer of ejection seats. Their K-36 ejection seat is a competitor to Martin Baker. In fact, NPP Zvezda was close to clinching the contract for even the American fighter F-22 Raptor and the Joint Strike Fighter. Currently, the K-36 sports various variants used in Russian fighters, such as the MiG-29, Su-27, Su-30 and Su-57. K-36 is also a zero-zero ejection seat at par with Martin Baker,” he added.

The price range for the Tejas jet fighter stands at between US$ 30/33 million, a reasonable sum for Argentina short in funds but desperate to have an operational air force. Indian sources say that some 40/45 Tejas models have been built so far for the Indian Air Force and Navy. Argentina's interest would be for twelve jets.
 
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AnantS

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What IP are you talking about? & pertinent to this thread how does that IP apply to on-board computers for Tejas?




These are pretty generic & open architectures which are multi purpose- will do anything they are commanded to do. Is that not sufficient for the task at hand? What do we need IP or local chip fabs for?

edit- I see there are some 15 LRUs that are sourced from UK. HAL is trying to replace them with Indian components. As @Roland55 said that contract will happen post 2023-24 after elections so there is at least 2 years to find replacements.

What IP are you talking about? & pertinent to this thread how does that IP apply to on-board computers for Tejas?




These are pretty generic & open architectures which are multi purpose- will do anything they are commanded to do. Is that not sufficient for the task at hand? What do we need IP or local chip fabs for?

edit- I see there are some 15 LRUs that are sourced from UK. HAL is trying to replace them with Indian components. As @Roland55 said that contract will happen post 2023-24 after elections so there is at least 2 years to find replacements.

You answered your own question. Yes we might leverage open source architecture here. But again as I said we have zilch IPs in semiconductor area. Unless you know something that you can point to on the contrary? I will be happy to be proven wrong in this case.
 

Dark Sorrow

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What IP are you talking about? & pertinent to this thread how does that IP apply to on-board computers for Tejas?


While the Mk1’s DFCC was based on a 386 series processor, the new DFCC will feature PowerPC-based computing architecture with improved performance.


These are pretty generic & open architectures which are multi purpose- will do anything they are commanded to do. Is that not sufficient for the task at hand? What do we need IP or local chip fabs for?
Reality is bit different when it comes to open architectures.
This is very common misconception that PowerPC being open architecture is free to use and modify.
IBM has made selected version of PowerPC Instruction Set Architecture (ISA) Open-source (kindly note selected version not all versions-aerospace grade are generally not open-sourced). It means one can use these selected version of PowerPC ISA at no-cost with royalty-free license. This does not mean that you get implementation for this open-sourced ISA at no-cost with royalty-free license; you even don't get the details of the implementation. You need to either design the implementation or buy closed sourced and patented IP.

Let us look at an simplified example
Let say you want to add 2 number 5 and 8. You want to finally store this result in RAM.
The instruction for this is
ADD #5, #8, $0001
Here # denotes constant and $ denotes memory address
Binary encoded value that your CPU understands is as follows
1110101----------------101---------1000----------00000001
ADD Instruction------Value 5----- Value 8------Memory Address

Till this point things are open-source.
The implementation will define
  1. How numbers will be read from memory
  2. How memory will be accessed
  3. Physical implementation of addition
  4. Storing back numbers in memory
All above steps are patented and trade secrets. This information is not available easily.

Replacing with indigenous sub-system and off the shelf system is not easy.

Also note the software is certified against given implementation. If the implementation changes you need to re-certify.

Here I am not talking about other IP and peripherals, which will open whole new can of worms.

All aerospace certified products are closed source and drop replacement is generally not available.

I believe we use PowerPC e6500 (citation needed) based processor in our mission computer, DFCC, etc. This is neither open not can be easily replaced without substantial redevelopment and testing.
 
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Dark Sorrow

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What crap! India is by itself a chip design powerhouse. 1 in 5 of the world's best chip designers right here.




I hope they go all out and try their level best to win it. Be it Argentina or Malaysia or Egypt or elsewhere. Each and every sale means influence, and can lead to a deluge of sales down the road. Provide great service and respond to foreign customer feedback promptly. Indian weapons should have a reputation for being relatively cheap, yet high on quality, reliability and sophistication. Otherwise the present movers and shakers like US & EU have the expensive end covered, while Russia and China corner the not so rich markets.
If you analyze semiconductor operation in India most of them are
  1. Validation Engineers
  2. Layout Engineers
  3. Engineers to co-ordinate with Fab to get design compatible with process
  4. Test Engineers
  5. Device Driver Development
  6. Application Development
  7. Support Engineers
We have only a very small number of design engineers.

Most of this MNC get the IP designed and then come to India to get product manufactured.

But things are changing, Indians are gaining entry to design flow. It will take time for semiconductor designing to mature in India.
 

AnantS

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@Dark Sorrow Good information. Thanks for education. Do you know if any indigenous effort has been made on developing our own implementation?
 

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