LCA TEJAS MK1 & MK1A: News and Discussion

[Super Flanker]

Do we have official confirmation for the same?
Most of information I find online appears to be paid hit-job against Tejas.

Could be. But I am not sure about this. Tejas Fullfils all the technical specifications and requirements laid down by Malaysian Airforce. I don't think that Tejas will be just kicked out that way.

If HAL/DRDO can really interface with such a multitude of systems with Tejas, they must be serious genius level jugaadus. Wonder why they dont apply the same level of lateral thinking into the actual research itself?

Right.

 

[Super Flanker]

The day before lab viva?

What are you trying to say? "The day before lab viva?" I didn't get it.

 

[Whitecollar]

If HAL/DRDO can really interface with such a multitude of systems with Tejas, they must be serious genius level jugaadus. Wonder why they dont apply the same level of lateral thinking into the actual research itself?

Not enough funds are provided in any R&D sector of India. This is why you find jugaad tech in almost every Indian defence product. Moreover the biggest problem with this is: people appreciate such efforts hence more jugaad happens every now and then to save cost on stuffs.

This used to be a concept of Soviet Union back in the days...look at where it got Russia as on today. They are decades behind western technology.

Hence the academia front and R&D front has to be invested in heavily for atleast a decade so that India reaches a Technologically independant stage(like China now). After that only, we will stop copying/jugaading and start inventing.

 

[pipebomb]

How is JF 17 not BVR Capable? You are Seriously Underestimating JF-17 Thunder. Have you heard of the Name "SD-10"(Also called as PL-12. Both are the same Missile but with Different Name) which is a radar-guided air-to-air missile. Yes you heard that right, it's a BVR and is said to have a Range of 70-100kms so your claim that JF-17 is not BVR Capable is not right.

Other than the part with "JF 17 not having SD-10" I agree with the Rest in your post.

That is because i have no faith in reliability of klj7. Its not a proven system and i am NOT going to give chinese/packies voucher the same credibility as Indian, western, Japanese or Korean ones. Until jf-17s bvr & radar capability is proven its safe to assume that klj7 is worse than kopyo.

 

[Super Flanker]

That is because i have no faith in reliability of klj7. Its not a proven system and i am NOT going to give chinese/packies voucher the same credibility as Indian, western, Japanese or Korean ones. Until jf-17s bvr & radar capability is proven its safe to assume that klj7 is worse than kopyo.

I would advise you to have a discussion on JF-17 Thunder in this thread which is dedicated for it. Better to discuss here than cluttering this thread. Thank in Advance.

JF-17 Thunder / FC-1 Xiaolong

Islamabad, Mar 7 (PTI) Pakistan and China today signed an agreement for the serial production of 42 JF-17 Thunder jet fighters, which are expected to form the backbone of the Pakistani aerial combat fleet in coming years. Air Chief Marshal Tanvir Mahmood, the chief of the Pakistan Air Force...

defenceforumindia.com

 

[MonaLazy]

Though Python 5 is it causes fluttering issue with aircraft under some conditions. I don't know if this issue has been resolved. To counter this we were/are planning to incorporate ASRAAM on Tejas. This was one of the reason why Astra-IR project was started.

That image I shared is fairly old news I realised- from 28 Apr 2021. There is a video also:



The flutter problem is solved apparently:

The flutter issue has been resolved, Python 5 CCM got successfully test-fired from LCA TEJAS. Congratulations!
@DRDO_India

Congratulations! Extremely happy to see the flutter issue has been resolved and the Python V is now integrated & tested on the Tejas Mk1..one of the deadliest WVR AAMs in the world, this will make the Tejas Mk1 one of the most dangerous IAF fighters in close combat.

Do we have official confirmation for the same?
Most of information I find online appears to be paid hit-job against Tejas.

Nothing official, this farticle is a sure shot hit job

Persaingan Kini Antara FA-50 Block 20 Dan M-346FA?

Tender antarabangsa Kementerian Pertahanan untuk mendapatkan 18 buah pesawat Fighter Lead-In Trainer/Light Combat Aircraft (FLIT/LCA) telah pun ditutup pada 6 Oktober tahun lepas dan sejak daripada tarikh itu bermulalah tugas berat pasukan penilai untuk menentukan pemenangnya.

defencesecurityasia.com

 

[Rajaraja Chola]

That is because i have no faith in reliability of klj7. Its not a proven system and i am NOT going to give chinese/packies voucher the same credibility as Indian, western, Japanese or Korean ones. Until jf-17s bvr & radar capability is proven its safe to assume that klj7 is worse than kopyo.

Putting ones head inside sand doesn't help anybody. Chinese are exporting stuff. Even if it's not equal.to the level.of Western electronic, it's still good enough to trouble IAF.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

That image I shared is fairly old news I realised- from 28 Apr 2021. There is a video also:



The flutter problem is solved apparently:

The flutter issue has been resolved, Python 5 CCM got successfully test-fired from LCA TEJAS. Congratulations!
@DRDO_India

Congratulations! Extremely happy to see the flutter issue has been resolved and the Python V is now integrated & tested on the Tejas Mk1..one of the deadliest WVR AAMs in the world, this will make the Tejas Mk1 one of the most dangerous IAF fighters in close combat.

If you analyze the tweets, you will see DRDO has never acknowledged flutter issue has been completely resolved.
I believe under certain condition the flutter issue is mitigated but is not completely resolved. I vaguely remember this flutter issue is exacerbated during high-G high speed maneuvers.

They have not mentioned what modification have been done to Tejas to resolve this issue.

 

[maximus777]

What are you trying to say? "The day before lab viva?" I didn't get it.

Those who know, know

Just a silly joke on college day lab exams.

 

[porky_kicker]

If you analyze the tweets, you will see DRDO has never acknowledged flutter issue has been completely resolved.
I believe under certain condition the flutter issue is mitigated but is not completely resolved. I vaguely remember this flutter issue is exacerbated during high-G high speed maneuvers.

They have not mentioned what modification have been done to Tejas to resolve this issue.

What kind of logic is this ?

No missile / munitions are operationally cleared unless it is safe , no one will risk a multi million dollar platform or put the life of a pilot at risk for a missile

AFAIK

1st a missile undergoes carriage trials under all flight conditions

Even before that the missile undergoes ground tests

Even before that CFD stimulations are extensively done stimulating flight conditions including wind tunnel testings

Only after all these, firing trials are conducted in all flight regimes & release conditions

And only on successful completion of all the above , operational clearance is given

Everything has to be cleared and vetted by multiple agencies including drdo hal cemilac iaf etc

Also I had the same issue in twitter , people expect everything to be elaborated , which is not possible in twitter nor required in most cases imo

 

[Dark Sorrow]

What kind of logic is this ?

No missile / munitions are operationally cleared unless it is safe , no one will risk a multi million dollar platform or put the life of a pilot at risk for a missile

All munitions have safe operating flight profile. If the aircraft is operating under this safe operating flight profile risk are minimal or acceptable under cost-benefit matrix. It is never risk free. If pilots don't exceed this safe operating flight profile their should be no problem.
We had seen this even with the SAP-518 jammer on MKI.
Problem with Python-5 like missile is that it will be used in WVR combat and in emergencies the pilot may be required to breech these safe operating flight profile. This is where it might cause problem.
Hence we are looking at alternative like ASRAAM and Astra-IR.

Also I had the same issue in twitter , people expect everything to be elaborated , which is not possible in twitter nor required in most cases imo

DRDO/ADA also didn't make any press release or release any literature regarding the same.

 

[MonaLazy]

If you analyze the tweets, you will see DRDO has never acknowledged flutter issue has been completely resolved.
I believe under certain condition the flutter issue is mitigated but is not completely resolved. I vaguely remember this flutter issue is exacerbated during high-G high speed maneuvers.

They have not mentioned what modification have been done to Tejas to resolve this issue.

True- flutter issues because of big control surfaces interfering with airflow were known since at least 2017 & the missile vendor was asked to identify & fix the problem, then in 2020 Rafael ADS conducted a simulation of Python-5 onboard LCA and some changes were made to the AAM pylons and positioning of the missile itself. Had those flutter issues not been resolved ADA/LCA test team would have never agreed to a firing trial- now we have it on video from DRDO and the missile has been cleared for operational usage by IAF which means all flutter problems are now history.

From Sep 2017,

India's Tejas Set For Fresh Missile Fight - Livefist

As India's LCA Tejas, which entered tentative service with the Indian Air Force last year, works to prove itself as the combat platform it was intended to be, there's trouble brewing on a crucial capability that planners won't be softening on: a close combat air-to-air missile. While the...

www.livefistdefence.com

then in Aug 2020

According to the information provided to idrw.org, Indian and Israel might have another go at integration process of Python-5 Close Combat Missile (CCM) onboard LCA-Tejas Mk1/1A fighter jets after it failed to clear Captive trials onboard LCA-Tejas due to excessive vibrations recorded at certain flight regimes apparently due to Big control surfaces in the front section of the Python-5 CCM which interfered with air-flow thus creating flutter issues and later ADA/IAF asked Rafael Advanced Defense Systems which is the manufacture of the missile system to step in to identify and fix the issue.

Rafael Advanced Defense Systems conducted a simulated flight regime of the Python-5 CCM onboard LCA-Tejas to identify and fix the issue and some Captive flights have been carried out recently with some changes to the AAM Pylons and the positioning of the missile itself. idrw.org has been told that if Captive flight evaluation tests records come good then it might be cleared to be test-fired from the aircraft sometime in the coming months.

IAF may have another go at Python-5 CCM integration with Tejas Mk1A – Indian Defence Research Wing

idrw.org

from Dec 2021

Earlier this year 5th generation Python-5 Air-to-Air Missile (AAM) acquired from Israel was tested and cleared for operational usage by the IAF.

Tejas aircraft had successfully fired the Vympel R-73 air-to-air missile for the first time way back in 2010 but IAF had opted for Israeli Python-5 as its standard WVR missiles but following delays in captive flight trials due to flutter issues with the missile, there were delays in certifying the missile on the Tejas by two years.

After Python-5, Tejas to get ASRAAM – Indian Defence Research Wing

idrw.org

https://forums.bharat -rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?t=7835&start=760

No missile / munitions are operationally cleared unless it is safe , no one will risk a multi million dollar platform or put the life of a pilot at risk for a missile

AFAIK

1st a missile undergoes carriage trials under all flight conditions

Even before that the missile undergoes ground tests

Even before that CFD stimulations are extensively done stimulating flight conditions including wind tunnel testings

Only after all these, firing trials are conducted in all flight regimes & release conditions

Absolutely bang on! flutter problems were revealed in carriage trials itself- so they would have never given the go-ahead for firing trials if there was any risk involved, plus 2-3 years have passed since the problem was known and a solution was found. It's a competitive world, why would Rafael want to give a walk over to MBDA's ASRAAM & Russian R-73?

I wouldn’t really take IDRW as an authoritative source.

I tried finding better sources, but could not so far. But their reporting, in this case, seems on point. Also backed by tweets from @Amitraaz & others posted earlier.

 

[Aditya Ballal]

True- flutter issues because of big control surfaces interfering with airflow were known since at least 2017 & the missile vendor was asked to identify & fix the problem, then in 2020 Rafael ADS conducted a simulation of Python-5 onboard LCA and some changes were made to the AAM pylons and positioning of the missile itself. Had those flutter issues not been resolved ADA/LCA test team would have never agreed to a firing trial- now we have it on video from DRDO and the missile has been cleared for operational usage by IAF which means all flutter problems are now history.

From Sep 2017,
View attachment 135404

India's Tejas Set For Fresh Missile Fight - Livefist

As India's LCA Tejas, which entered tentative service with the Indian Air Force last year, works to prove itself as the combat platform it was intended to be, there's trouble brewing on a crucial capability that planners won't be softening on: a close combat air-to-air missile. While the...

www.livefistdefence.com

then in Aug 2020

IAF may have another go at Python-5 CCM integration with Tejas Mk1A – Indian Defence Research Wing

idrw.org

from Dec 2021

After Python-5, Tejas to get ASRAAM – Indian Defence Research Wing

idrw.org

View attachment 135408
https://forums.bharat -rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?t=7835&start=760

I wouldn’t really take IDRW as an authoritative source.

 

[VIP]

I wouldn’t really take IDRW as an authoritative source.

It's a hipster defence blog. But I bet it's better than NDTV.

 

[Johny_Baba]

Su-30MKI vs Tejas - Size Comparison

Spoiler: another size comparison

anybody here willing to colourise this lol

 

[Super Flanker]

Su-30MKI vs Tejas - Size Comparison
View attachment 135603

Spoiler: another size comparison

anybody here willing to colourise this lol
View attachment 135604

It's amazing to see how large SU-30 MKI is as an Aircraft. SU-30 MKI cockpit Section itself is nearly 85-90% the length of LCA Tejas.

Sukhoi Su-30MKI has an empty Weight of 18,400 kg(18.4 tons). LCA Tejas has an empty weight of 6,560 kg, so SU-30 MKI weighs nearly 3 times more than LCA Tejas. Two of my favourite Aircrafts of all Time.

 

[SARTHAK]

anybody has how sensor fusion is to be implemented on tejas mk2? any brochure or interview by ada official explaining it ?

 

[Dark Sorrow]

anybody has how sensor fusion is to be implemented on tejas mk2? any brochure or interview by ada official explaining it ?

The avionics of Tejas Mark 2 will be centered on multi-sensor data fusion incorporating both active and passive sensors on board. The aircraft will also have an integrated infrared search and track (IRST) system for passive target acquisition along with Uttam AESA Radar will be the primary sensors of detection, target acquisition and target engagement.. The Tejas Mark 2 will have indigenous Software-defined radio based tactical data link for secured communication and network-centric warfare capabilities supported by IAF's AFNet digital information grid.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

anybody has how sensor fusion is to be implemented on tejas mk2? any brochure or interview by ada official explaining it ?

List of sensor form where the data will be fused to provided unified battle awareness to pilot

1. Uttam AESA Radar
2. Infra Red Search and Track (IRST)
3. Digital Radar Warning Receiver(DRWR)
4. Missile Approach Warning System (MAWS)
5. Electronic Warfare suite
6. Information received from Network (AFNet) be it ground based radar or AWACS or other aircarft

 

[SARTHAK]

The avionics of Tejas Mark 2 will be centered on multi-sensor data fusion incorporating both active and passive sensors on board. The aircraft will also have an integrated infrared search and track (IRST) system for passive target acquisition along with Uttam AESA Radar will be the primary sensors of detection, target acquisition and target engagement.. The Tejas Mark 2 will have indigenous Software-defined radio based tactical data link for secured communication and network-centric warfare capabilities supported by IAF's AFNet digital information grid.

so it means rwr+dcmaws+irst+radar