LCA TEJAS MK1 & MK1A: News and Discussion

[ladder]

Of course, one can never be too sure. But a few things:
1. The picture seems pulled from some DRDO presentation- looks legit
2. The guy is admin of https://www.facebook.com/TeamAMCA/
3. If you see top left it says Target Aircraft Tejas
4. If you see bottom left "Tracks & Plots on PPI" the red plotting goes all the way up to ~83 Nm.

UTTAM did track another Tejas at 150 km distance. I agree to that fact. But not the 1.5 m2 RCS figure.
The value 1.5 m2 was inserted as an standard value and not as an actual value.

 

[Roland55]

UTTAM did track another Tejas at 150 km distance. I agree to that fact. But not the 1.5 m2 RCS figure.
The value 1.5 m2 was inserted as an standard value and not as an actual value.

1.5 is way less than the standard RCS of a fighter, still very impressive!

 

[ladder]

1.5 is way less than the standard RCS of a fighter, still very impressive!

Most of the time, these days standard RCS of 2m2 is taken.

 

[MonaLazy]

In pic, Tejas is launching a nightmare of dog fight The mighty #Python5 #HAL #TEJAS #Rafael #IAI

Spoiler: source

 

[Rajaraja Chola]

The Americans have the entire FCS for the Tejas.. atleast until our cooperation with them..

The FCS was written for F16. Not Tejas...

Moreover I am pretty sure, the Americans have a lot more knowledge and experience in doing FCS. Add to that war data coming in from their pilots.
Ditto goes for their EW systems.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

The reference of 1.5 m2 is a standard fighter size target.
I can't conclude tejas RCS at 150 km is 1.5 m2 from this tweet.
My opinion.

Chinese Junk KLJ 7 has 170 KM range for 5 Sq meter target. Junk fighters (Starts with "J") has Junk radar.

 

[karn]

The FCS was written for F16. Not Tejas...

Moreover I am pretty sure, the Americans have a lot more knowledge and experience in doing FCS. Add to that war data coming in from their pilots.
Ditto goes for their EW systems.

They have the fcs that was tested on their iron bird hence they can mimic it on this f 16 test bed.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

In pic, Tejas is launching a nightmare of dog fight The mighty #Python5 #HAL #TEJAS #Rafael #IAI
View attachment 135063

Spoiler: source

Python 5 in combination with top class HMD used by Tejas is a game changer in Dog fight/ Close Combat. It will allow Tejas to fire Python at enemy aircraft even without pointing nose at enemy aircraft. This is a big advantage in close combat. No Chinese Junk aircraft can come close to Tejas. Highly effective Indo Isreali EW suite can jam any missile fired from Junk series of Aircraft.

So far as Rafale is concern, it will Jam the radar of any junk series and blind them. This was Proved in Antolian eagle 2021 exercise. Porkis told Qutar not to reveal outcome of the exercise and Porki liars from back door started propagating that JF 17 defeated Rafale in Antolian eagle exercise. One Qutari official than revealed in a press conference that Rafale did not only jammed the radar of JF 17 but also jammed the radar of F16. There was a news that Rafale jammed the radar of mighty Su 35 as well. So when any Junk series will face Rafale, they will practically be flying without radar as Rafale will make them useless. I want some inputs of Spectra to go into Tejas Mk1A and Mk2.

 

[SwordOfDarkness]

The Americans have the entire FCS for the Tejas.. atleast until our cooperation with them..

That was the trial run, the fcs for a delta wing can never be same, or even similar for a conventional plane. Most likely the DRDO team was allowed to test out their principles on a F16, and given advice on how to write a good fcs code, covering all possible failure cases.

 

[SARTHAK]

Python 5 in combination with top class HMD used by Tejas is a game changer in Dog fight/ Close Combat. It will allow Tejas to fire Python at enemy aircraft even without pointing nose at enemy aircraft. This is a big advantage in close combat. No Chinese Junk aircraft can come close to Tejas. Highly effective Indo Isreali EW suite can jam any missile fired from Junk series of Aircraft.

So far as Rafale is concern, it will Jam the radar of any junk series and blind them. This was Proved in Antolian eagle 2021 exercise. Porkis told Qutar not to reveal outcome of the exercise and Porki liars from back door started propagating that JF 17 defeated Rafale in Antolian eagle exercise. One Qutari official than revealed in a press conference that Rafale did not only jammed the radar of JF 17 but also jammed the radar of F16. There was a news that Rafale jammed the radar of mighty Su 35 as well. So when any Junk series will face Rafale, they will practically be flying without radar as Rafale will make them useless. I want some inputs of Spectra to go into Tejas Mk1A and Mk2.

not that easy in actual combat ,although then rafale is a potent platform but we still lack numbers..

 

[johnj]

Most of the time, these days standard RCS of 2m2 is taken.

1m2 for now. 2m2 for old aesa. 3m2 for pesa. US/Israel standard.

 

[johnj]

Chinese Junk KLJ 7 has 170 KM range for 5 Sq meter target. Junk fighters (Starts with "J") has Junk radar.

then what about mmr/rf sensor of mk1 ?

 

[johnj]

Python 5 in combination with top class HMD used by Tejas is a game changer in Dog fight/ Close Combat. It will allow Tejas to fire Python at enemy aircraft even without pointing nose at enemy aircraft. This is a big advantage in close combat. No Chinese Junk aircraft can come close to Tejas. Highly effective Indo Isreali EW suite can jam any missile fired from Junk series of Aircraft.

So far as Rafale is concern, it will Jam the radar of any junk series and blind them. This was Proved in Antolian eagle 2021 exercise. Porkis told Qutar not to reveal outcome of the exercise and Porki liars from back door started propagating that JF 17 defeated Rafale in Antolian eagle exercise. One Qutari official than revealed in a press conference that Rafale did not only jammed the radar of JF 17 but also jammed the radar of F16. There was a news that Rafale jammed the radar of mighty Su 35 as well. So when any Junk series will face Rafale, they will practically be flying without radar as Rafale will make them useless. I want some inputs of Spectra to go into Tejas Mk1A and Mk2.

lca too small for spectra. Junk series - russian ones or pak ones or usa ones ?

 

[MonaLazy]

The FCS was written

.. that would seem to imply that FCS is software, it is a lot more than just that! This is one design for example showing some of the components-

FCC- Flight Control Computer
FCS- Flight Control System
OSAS- Output Signal Analysis & Selection
ISAS- Input Signal Analysis & Selection
CLAW- Control Law

The FCS consists of four individual FCCs, and each FCC includes a single OSAS, ISAS, and CLAW component, as well as several other components, includes logic for fault tolerance etc.

https://conservancy.umn.edu/bitstream/handle/11299/217438/NFM-qfcs.pdf?sequence=1

The Airbus A380 fly-by-wire flight control system has quadruplex redundancy i.e., it has five flight control computers where only one computer is needed to fly the aircraft. Consequently, an Airbus aircraft can afford to lose four of these computers and still be flyable. Of the five flight control computers, three are primary computers and two are secondary (backup) computers. The primary and the secondary flight control computers use different processors, are designed and supplied by different vendors, feature different chips from different manufacturers, and have different software systems developed by different teams using different programming languages. All this redundancy reduces the probability of common hardware- and software-errors that could lead to system failure.

The multiple redundant flight control computers continuously keep track of each other’s output. If one computer produces deviant results for some reason, the flight control system as a whole excludes the results from that aberrant computer in determining the appropriate actions for the flight controls.

By replicating critical sensors, computers, and actuators, Airbus provides for a “graceful degradation” state, where essential facilities remain available, allowing the pilot to fly and land the plane. If an Airbus loses all engine power, a ram air turbine can power the aircraft’s most critical systems, allowing the pilot to glide and land the plane (as happened with Air Transat Flight 236.)

Five Where Only One is Needed: How Airbus Avoids Single Points of Failure - Right Attitudes

In my case study of the Boeing 737 MAX aircraft’s anti-stall mechanism, I examined how relying on data from only one Angle-of-Attack (AoA) sensor caused two accidents and the aircraft’s consequent grounding. A single point of failure is a system component, which, upon failure, renders the entire...

www.rightattitudes.com

Finally the significance of RSS in FCS
RSS is probably one of the largest technical advances on the F-16, simply means that the aircraft is balanced in the pitch axis for subsonic flight conditions such that the center of lift for the wing is at, or ahead of, the center of gravity. Therefore, it is necessary for the tail to be a lifting tail. Even though RSS concept allows reduced structual weight and higher T/W, the RSS system will diverge immediately if pitch stability augumentation is not continuously active.

AIAA Aerospace Research Central

 

[HariPrasad-1]

then what about mmr/rf sensor of mk1 ?

Did not understand what you want to ask. They are different.

 

[johnj]

the

Did not understand what you want to ask. They are different.

then why ''KLJ 7 has 170 KM range for 5 Sq meter target '' and why not just 'junk'.
Also, what is the range of mmr against 5m2.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

Python 5 in combination with top class HMD used by Tejas is a game changer in Dog fight/ Close Combat. It will allow Tejas to fire Python at enemy aircraft even without pointing nose at enemy aircraft. This is a big advantage in close combat.

Though Python 5 is it causes fluttering issue with aircraft under some conditions. I don't know if this issue has been resolved. To counter this we were/are planning to incorporate ASRAAM on Tejas. This was one of the reason why Astra-IR project was started.

No Chinese Junk aircraft can come close to Tejas.

PL-10 is a very capable missile and a formidable threat to us. PL-9 also posses similar capabilities.

Highly effective Indo Isreali EW suite can jam any missile fired from Junk series of Aircraft.

Their is no such thing as Indo Isreali EW suite. It is either Isreali EW suite or Indian Isreali EW suite.
We plan to replace all Isreali EW suite with indigenous one.
Jamming is a game of probability. You confuse the enemy missile to make it loose enough energy that it won't be able to attack its intended target or just make it unable to establish a lock on you or jam the data-link that you go out of its range.
Jamming is not 100% successful all the time. A lot of factors play a role into successful jamming.

So far as Rafale is concern, it will Jam the radar of any junk series and blind them. This was Proved in Antolian eagle 2021 exercise. Porkis told Qutar not to reveal outcome of the exercise and Porki liars from back door started propagating that JF 17 defeated Rafale in Antolian eagle exercise. One Qutari official than revealed in a press conference that Rafale did not only jammed the radar of JF 17 but also jammed the radar of F16. There was a news that Rafale jammed the radar of mighty Su 35 as well. So when any Junk series will face Rafale, they will practically be flying without radar as Rafale will make them useless. I want some inputs of Spectra to go into Tejas Mk1A and Mk2.

This is called Radar Spoofing. It is a basic and most common feature in most modern ECM. Our ASJP is also capable of the same.
Inadequacies in ECCM of the Radars causes Radar Spoofing. No country exposes their ECM and ECCM in any exercises.

 

[Super Flanker]

Jf-17 in its current form is not a bvr fighter, similar to our bison. And packies doesn't has high off-boresight wvr missile either. Tejas mk1 can take on packie f-16s so no need to consider jf-17.

But in future a bvr missile with an aesa seeker head would be a problem for which we should develop effective ew now for our fighters. We also need indigenous common datalink for all three services.

How is JF 17 not BVR Capable? You are Seriously Underestimating JF-17 Thunder. Have you heard of the Name "SD-10"(Also called as PL-12. Both are the same Missile but with Different Name) which is a radar-guided air-to-air missile. Yes you heard that right, it's a BVR and is said to have a Range of 70-100kms so your claim that JF-17 is not BVR Capable is not right.

Other than the part with "JF 17 not having SD-10" I agree with the Rest in your post.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

How is JF 17 not BVR Capable? You are Seriously Underestimating JF-17 Thunder. Have you heard of the Name "SD-10"(Also called as PL-12. Both are the same Missile but with Different Name) which is a radar-guided air-to-air missile. Yes you heard that right, it's a BVR and is said to have a Range of 70-100kms so your claim that JF-17 is not BVR Capable is not right.

Other than the part with "JF 17 not having SD-10" I agree with the Rest in your post.

Not to forget R-Darter and PL-15E.

 

[Rajaraja Chola]

.. that would seem to imply that FCS is software, it is a lot more than just that! This is one design for example showing some of the components-

View attachment 135114

FCC- Flight Control Computer
FCS- Flight Control System
OSAS- Output Signal Analysis & Selection
ISAS- Input Signal Analysis & Selection
CLAW- Control Law

The FCS consists of four individual FCCs, and each FCC includes a single OSAS, ISAS, and CLAW component, as well as several other components, includes logic for fault tolerance etc.

https://conservancy.umn.edu/bitstream/handle/11299/217438/NFM-qfcs.pdf?sequence=1

The Airbus A380 fly-by-wire flight control system has quadruplex redundancy i.e., it has five flight control computers where only one computer is needed to fly the aircraft. Consequently, an Airbus aircraft can afford to lose four of these computers and still be flyable. Of the five flight control computers, three are primary computers and two are secondary (backup) computers. The primary and the secondary flight control computers use different processors, are designed and supplied by different vendors, feature different chips from different manufacturers, and have different software systems developed by different teams using different programming languages. All this redundancy reduces the probability of common hardware- and software-errors that could lead to system failure.

The multiple redundant flight control computers continuously keep track of each other’s output. If one computer produces deviant results for some reason, the flight control system as a whole excludes the results from that aberrant computer in determining the appropriate actions for the flight controls.

By replicating critical sensors, computers, and actuators, Airbus provides for a “graceful degradation” state, where essential facilities remain available, allowing the pilot to fly and land the plane. If an Airbus loses all engine power, a ram air turbine can power the aircraft’s most critical systems, allowing the pilot to glide and land the plane (as happened with Air Transat Flight 236.)

Five Where Only One is Needed: How Airbus Avoids Single Points of Failure - Right Attitudes

In my case study of the Boeing 737 MAX aircraft’s anti-stall mechanism, I examined how relying on data from only one Angle-of-Attack (AoA) sensor caused two accidents and the aircraft’s consequent grounding. A single point of failure is a system component, which, upon failure, renders the entire...

www.rightattitudes.com

Finally the significance of RSS in FCS
RSS is probably one of the largest technical advances on the F-16, simply means that the aircraft is balanced in the pitch axis for subsonic flight conditions such that the center of lift for the wing is at, or ahead of, the center of gravity. Therefore, it is necessary for the tail to be a lifting tail. Even though RSS concept allows reduced structual weight and higher T/W, the RSS system will diverge immediately if pitch stability augumentation is not continuously active.

View attachment 135120

AIAA Aerospace Research Central

You are absolutely right. But again the FCS for F16 would have been developed based on already existing infrastructure on that aircraft. I do not know if Indian computer, sensors and DAQs were allowed on that aircraft.
Moreover even if saying if Indians systems were used and accessed by Americans, I honestly don't think it's a threat to us now. It was 25 years back. Lots of design changes have flown btw then and now. And it's not as if we have leapfrogged the Americans in aerospace engineering yet.