LCA TEJAS MK1 & MK1A: News and Discussion

[Javelin_Sam]

You guys really overestimate the power the PM has in a parliamentary democracy like India. He isn't the president of a republic who has immense executive power. Modi cannot make individual procurement decisions, this is left to the services- I doubt Modi even has much awareness of the LCA MK.2 existing.



When did the IN get convinced to invest in AMCA? The opposite happened. They have gone all in on TEDBF these last 2 years and are convinced they need a clean sheet design.


+ The SQN strength I am projecting for 2035 is what the IAF is clearly working towards based on the 114 MRFA and 0 LCA MK.2

There is one senior member in BRF from IAS. Once long back in a post, he explained how even a Joint Secretary level Babu can put a file in limbo or even kill it. Service Chief can only recommend an acquisition to the MoD through moving a file. MoD after reviewing details at different levels then passes it to the DAC. DAC has Raksha Mantri, SecDefence, SecDefence production, Sec Drdo, Sec defence finance along with service chief. First the acquisition must clear DAC and then move to Cabinet Committee on Security chaired by PM. Here comes PM's most trusted babus from PMO. Their green signal must also be given. Then Modi decides whether the file passes or goes to dustbin. He can even reroute it back to MoD if he want. The service chief lies low in the food chain. That's why inspite of all media hitjobs and biased and never ending testing by DG Artillery and IA against ATAGS, not even a file for ATHOS import has seen the limelight. Why PM, a sensible Defence Minister has more power if he wants. Just look how Parikkar thrust the 83 mk1a down the IAF's throat. He had the brains to realise that Mk1a with Astra BVR can deter any fighter jet from coming into its kill zone.

 

[Brood Father]

You guys really overestimate the power the PM has in a parliamentary democracy like India. He isn't the president of a republic who has immense executive power. Modi cannot make individual procurement decisions, this is left to the services- I doubt Modi even has much awareness of the LCA MK.2 existing.



When did the IN get convinced to invest in AMCA? The opposite happened. They have gone all in on TEDBF these last 2 years and are convinced they need a clean sheet design.


+ The SQN strength I am projecting for 2035 is what the IAF is clearly working towards based on the 114 MRFA and 0 LCA MK.2

Can't comment on MK2 status but you are wrong about power of PMO in defence matters.
There are many examples where legislature have overridden the demands of defence. Defence do not account of political vote apart from invoking nationalist sentiment
Our current zoo fleet of IAF is a testimony of that. If IAF chief held so much power then Rafaels would have been inducted in UPA times.

Even today if PMO wants he will shove the MK2 down the throat of IAF and IAF can't do zilch about it.

 

[Vamsi]

You guys really overestimate the power the PM has in a parliamentary democracy like India. He isn't the president of a republic who has immense executive power. Modi cannot make individual procurement decisions, this is left to the services- I doubt Modi even has much awareness of the LCA MK.2 existing.



When did the IN get convinced to invest in AMCA? The opposite happened. They have gone all in on TEDBF these last 2 years and are convinced they need a clean sheet design.


+ The SQN strength I am projecting for 2035 is what the IAF is clearly working towards based on the 114 MRFA and 0 LCA MK.2

Man they are rolling out MWF before 75th independence anniversary and most probably Mudi baba will be present there to show off and here you are saying that he might not have known about its existence

 

[Whitecollar]

I don't quite understand why the debate about Mk2 is in the Mk1 thread but not to worry.

Going back to Mk1A, does anybody else think that more Mk1A aircraft should be ordered? How many shorter range interceptor/limited load strike aircraft could IAF usefully use? I note that there is construction work reported at HAL Bengaluru and wonder if it is to expand assembly capacity (which could be used to build more Mk1A until needed for some other use).

Atleast 150 MK1As needed for both fronts. Flying heavy twin engine Su30s for regular CAP is way too costly. Chipping in little birds(having relatively good AESA) can really ease annual cost factor of IAF.

 

[Javelin_Sam]

Atleast 150 MK1As needed for both fronts. Flying heavy twin engine Su30s for regular CAP is way too costly. Chipping in little birds(having relatively good AESA) can really ease annual cost factor of IAF.

A total of 13 squadrons of Tejas + MWF will be procured. Don't expect more than that. 6 squadrons of Tejas have been ordered so far. Another 7 squadrons of MWF fighter.

IAF also need to manage CAPEX for Ghatak, AMCA, Super Sukhoi upgrade and CAATS.

 

[Okabe Rintarou]

Atleast 150 MK1As needed for both fronts. Flying heavy twin engine Su30s for regular CAP is way too costly. Chipping in little birds(having relatively good AESA) can really ease annual cost factor of IAF.

Paaji 123 se kaam chala lo. MWF will also likely have a low operating cost. When compared to that beastly Su-30MKI, anything will have a low operating cost (maybe even the Rafale).

 

[Spitfire9]

A total of 13 squadrons of Tejas + MWF will be procured. Don't expect more than that. 6 squadrons of Tejas have been ordered so far. Another 7 squadrons of MWF fighter.

IAF also need to manage CAPEX for Ghatak, AMCA, Super Sukhoi upgrade and CAATS.

IAF fighter force is way below desired strength. It will still be in 2022, 2023, 2024, 2025, 2026, 2027... What happens if there is an escalation on the western front before quantity deliveries of Mk2/MRFA arrive? GoI rushes off to Dassault and pays whatever price is asked to get hold of more Rafales quickly. Bye bye lots of capital for other projects.

IMO it would be sensible to reduce risk through the maintenance of squadron strength by ordering and making more Mk1A. Last 3 squadrons of MiG-21 are due to go soon, aren't they, which will leave IAF even further below strength than it is now from 2025 onwards.

 

[Okabe Rintarou]

IAF fighter force is way below desired strength. It will still be in 2022, 2023, 2024, 2025, 2026, 2027... What happens if there is an escalation on the western front before quantity deliveries of Mk2/MRFA arrive? GoI rushes off to Dassault and pays whatever price is asked to get hold of more Rafales quickly. Bye bye lots of capital for other projects.

IMO it would be sensible to reduce risk through the maintenance of squadron strength by ordering and making more Mk1A. Last 3 squadrons of MiG-21 are due to go soon, aren't they, which will leave IAF even further below strength than it is now from 2025 onwards.

As the situation currently stands, Mk2 is bound to be ready to enter service before 73 Mk1A production ends. There is no need to go for any more Mk1A.

 

[Covfefe]

As the situation currently stands, Mk2 is bound to be ready to enter service before 73 Mk1A production ends. There is no need to go for any more Mk1A.

First flight by 2023 end. Flight trials, any iteration(s), IOC, FOC, and deal signing by 2027- seems doable given the track record we have seen?

 

[Okabe Rintarou]

First flight by 2023 end. Flight trials, any iteration(s), IOC, FOC, and deal signing by 2027- seems doable given the track record we have seen?

They are confident that they won't need many iterations and that the first jet rolled out would be production standard or close to it. They'll be skipping the entire TD, PV and almost half the LSP stage that we had to contend with in LCA's case. Don't see why the jet won't be ready before Mk1A production is done.

 

[MonaLazy]

First flight by 2023 end. Flight trials, any iteration(s), IOC, FOC, and deal signing by 2027

Deal by 2027??

The aim is to put it into production by 2026!

Tejas done, focus on three other fighter jets: two for IAF, one Navy

Three new fighter jets will be flying by 2026, of which two will be for the Air Force and one for the Navy, Girish S Deodhare, chief of Aeronautical Development Agency of the Defence Ministry, which has designed the LCA, told The Indian Express.

indianexpress.com

 

[Covfefe]

They are confident that they won't need many iterations

Hope that IAF feels the same. Although it is mentioned that they have been collaborating right from its design phase the script, however, doesn't stop some new laundry list of requirements to appear out of nowhere

 

[Covfefe]

Deal by 2027??

The aim is to put it into production by 2026!

View attachment 117112

Tejas done, focus on three other fighter jets: two for IAF, one Navy

Three new fighter jets will be flying by 2026, of which two will be for the Air Force and one for the Navy, Girish S Deodhare, chief of Aeronautical Development Agency of the Defence Ministry, which has designed the LCA, told The Indian Express.

indianexpress.com

Getting new line for it? Or shifting the Mk1A to only 1 line?
Mk1A production is planned till 2028 right?

 

[SimplyIndian]

Okay then, rough calculations based on 18 aircraft per sqdn.

Rafales - 36 (2 sqdn) - by next year
Flankers - 260 (14 sqdn)
Tejas - 40 + 83 (7 sqdn) - by 2029
Mig 29 - 66 (4 sqdn)
Mirage 2000 - 49 (2sqdn)
Jags - 120 (7sqdn)
Mig 21 - 64 (3 sqdn) - will be retired

So by 2030 IAF will most probably have, 2 + 14 + 7 + 4 + 2 + 7 = 36 sqdn. +- 3

MRFA - 6 sqdn. Planned
MWF - 6 sqnd (hopefully)

Now, by 2035 we don't know how many of Jags, Mirage and Mig 29 with total 13 ~sqdn
will be retired. If they all are retired then there's a pretty clear clause for MRCA 2.0 and MWF both (6 + 6 sqdn each)
in an ideal world with no issues related to money.
I have not read through the interview of IAF chief in his pc, i don't know whether he was saying that
by 2035 we will have 35 sqdn including MRFA or without it.

Even if they do include MRFA and considering the age of other aircrafts its clear that IAF can't afford
the import of 6 sqdn of MRFA anytime soon and that 6 sqdn are far from enough, MWF is the one that will be
the one filling the gaps.

And at the end it was MWF which was supposed to be the replacemetn of Jags and Mirage, which seems more
plausible to me.

Also, the love of IAF for MMRCA isn't something new, they can fantasizes all they want but truth is that we
can't afford it, IAF is already more involved in MWF program than any other previous Tejas program so i don't see any reason why MWF is getting the shit on and why people are making mountain of a molehill.

At most it seems to me that IAF wanted to make a case for additional rafales and i am okay if they get additional orders of 36 rafales, most probably they will get follow on orders and shut the MMRCA 2.0 drama forever and let MWF be take the rest of the lot.

36 to 72 follow on order may become reality soon.

 

[The Shrike]

The problem with the Mk-2 from IAF's perspective is quite simple, Its just not something they can order TODA, even if the money became magically available. It is still 5-6 years away (with actual induction being a couple years more down the road), and between now and then anything can happen.
And if you are asking why they are behind AMCA when that project is even more in the future - well they simply don't have a path to a good 5th get stealth fighter now, the Russian one is not great and politically we have not made the choices that would enable us to but the American one. So it makes sense to invest in AMCA for now (other doors could open 10 years down the line if needed).

 

[Neeraj Mathur]

The problem with the Mk-2 from IAF's perspective is quite simple, Its just not something they can order TODA, even if the money became magically available. It is still 5-6 years away (with actual induction being a couple years more down the road), and between now and then anything can happen.
And if you are asking why they are behind AMCA when that project is even more in the future - well they simply don't have a path to a good 5th get stealth fighter now, the Russian one is not great and politically we have not made the choices that would enable us to but the American one. So it makes sense to invest in AMCA for now (other doors could open 10 years down the line if needed).

By same logic first flying aircraft of MRFA winner is also 5-6 yrs away provided we sign the deal today.

With MK2 there could be one of 2 scenario
1. Iaf backs it but still not sure about numbers so it is talking less about it.
2. Iaf is for some reason best known to them is not interested in MWF or mk2.

Things with AMCA is simple "NO ONE WILL GIVE YOU THE 5TH GEN TECHNOLOGY". You have to start and make your own.

 

[MonaLazy]

no need to go for any more Mk1A.

Also this

Mk 2 is IAF's dream spec- little reason to believe they won't back it.

 

[MonaLazy]

Getting new line for it? Or shifting the Mk1A to only 1 line?
Mk1A production is planned till 2028 right?

They seem to be planning a parallel Tejas mk2 production line by 2026 at Aircraft Division, Nasik while AMCA line will be with L&T at Coimbatore. The first Mk-1A will be delivered to the air force by March 2024, with the rest by 2029. Post 2029, when the Mk1As are done- they will probably convert these also to Mk 2 for faster induction- just my conjecture.

Aircraft Division, Nasik will continue to be used to undertake repair and overhaul of Sukhoi-30MKI fleet after the closure of the production line and talks are with IAF to convert it into a full-fledged production line for the LCA MkII Program since the AMCA Production line will be set up at Coimbatore in Tamil Nadu.

Last of FOC Tejas enters Production floor – Indian Defence Research Wing

idrw.org

LCA Mk-1A to take first flight by March, says HAL chairman

HAL will also next week announce a multimillion-dollar engine deal with US firm GE Aviation for 99 F404 engines to power India’s latest indigenous fighter, chairman R Madhavan said.

www.hindustantimes.com

 

[Spitfire9]

They seem to be planning a parallel Tejas mk2 production line by 2026 at Aircraft Division, Nasik while AMCA line will be with L&T at Coimbatore. The first Mk-1A will be delivered to the air force by March 2024, with the rest by 2029. Post 2029, when the Mk1As are done- they will probably convert these also to Mk 2 for faster induction- just my conjecture.

Last of FOC Tejas enters Production floor – Indian Defence Research Wing

idrw.org

LCA Mk-1A to take first flight by March, says HAL chairman

HAL will also next week announce a multimillion-dollar engine deal with US firm GE Aviation for 99 F404 engines to power India’s latest indigenous fighter, chairman R Madhavan said.

www.hindustantimes.com

Great news. Something to celebrate.

 

[abingdonboy]

I don't quite understand why the debate about Mk2 is in the Mk1 thread but not to worry.

Going back to Mk1A, does anybody else think that more Mk1A aircraft should be ordered? How many shorter range interceptor/limited load strike aircraft could IAF usefully use? I note that there is construction work reported at HAL Bengaluru and wonder if it is to expand assembly capacity (which could be used to build more Mk1A until needed for some other use).

The only point of ordering more MK1A at this point would be to expand production and expand delivery numbers- 123 delivered in the same time as the 83 by making 24 instead of 16/year.


But the IAF isn't looking to go that route so it's not likely. They want something more capable than the MK.1/1A as their lower end fighter.