LCA TEJAS MK1 & MK1A: News and Discussion

[abingdonboy]

In that case you will have to wait for atleast a couple of years, official commitments will come only after first flight. commitment on numbers will come much later.

In a couple of years, at this rate, LCA Mk.2 requirements will be in negative figures.

2018

We’re looking at 12 squadrons of the Light Combat Aircraft Mk.2, Indian Air Force chief Air Chief Marshal Birender Singh Dhanoa said today at an air power conference in India’s capital, confirming months of reports suggesting the IAF was looking for over 200 of the fighters.

Looking At 12 Squadrons Of LCA Tejas Mk.2, IAF Chief Confirms - Livefist

With a deal for 36 Rafales for her service at the heart of a political storm, the Indian Air Force chief was prepared for a barrage of questions that have lately seen his senior leadership at the frontlines of defending the deal. Today, he took it upon him. But amidst…

www.livefistdefence.com

2019

IAF has told the government that it is “committed to buying” another 10 Squadrons of Tejas Mark-II (each squadron has 16-18 fighters) and 36 Advance Medium Combat (AMCA) fighters.

IAF tells govt it is ready to buy 300 indigenous fighters and trainers

After several time over-run, the HAL has delivered about a dozen aircraft and fallen behind the scheduled yearly production target. The IAF was forced to raise the first squadron of Tejas fighters with just three in 2016.

www.hindustantimes.com

2021

The projected induction of 7 squadrons of Tejas Mk2 as mentioned by the IAF chief is a welcome step.

Tejas Mk-2 – India’s New SuperFighter Is Now One Of Top 4 Light Combat Aircraft In The World Along With ‘Idol’ Saab Gripen

Tejas Mk-2 is single-engine aircraft designed by HAL. Tejas jet has been touted as one of four leading light combat aircraft in the world

eurasiantimes.com

50% of the projected requirement evaporated in 3 years, what changed in that time?


Guys come on, tell me you can't see where this is going.

Why did the IAF force the ADA to drop MWF designation?

Why does the IAF mention 114 MRFA at every chance but consistently fails to do the same for the LCA MK.2?


I'll concede they will order the MK.2 but maybe in 2-4 SQN's worth, is that worth getting giddy about? the MK.2 is dead in all but name. Their lust for imports will never end.



Shameless and corrupt crooks.

 

[Tshering22]

In a couple of years, at this rate, LCA Mk.2 requirements will be in negative figures
Shameless and corrupt crooks.

As much as it hurts me to read this thread and say this; I think the only way we will indigenize is when USA and EU impose arms sanctions against us.

If Modi ji wants IAF and IN to accept domestic jets, then he has to do something that invokes the ire of the West in terms of arms sanctions.

 

[Vamsi]

As much as it hurts me to read this thread and say this; I think the only way we will indigenize is when USA and EU impose arms sanctions against us.

If Modi ji wants IAF and IN to accept domestic jets, then he has to do something that invokes the ire of the West in terms of arms sanctions.

There is no need of sanctions , Ninja Turtle shud shove it into IAF throat just like how Parrikar ji shoved Mk-1A

 

[vishnugupt]

In a couple of years, at this rate, LCA Mk.2 requirements will be in negative figures.

2018

Looking At 12 Squadrons Of LCA Tejas Mk.2, IAF Chief Confirms - Livefist

With a deal for 36 Rafales for her service at the heart of a political storm, the Indian Air Force chief was prepared for a barrage of questions that have lately seen his senior leadership at the frontlines of defending the deal. Today, he took it upon him. But amidst…

www.livefistdefence.com

2019

IAF tells govt it is ready to buy 300 indigenous fighters and trainers

After several time over-run, the HAL has delivered about a dozen aircraft and fallen behind the scheduled yearly production target. The IAF was forced to raise the first squadron of Tejas fighters with just three in 2016.

www.hindustantimes.com

2021

Tejas Mk-2 – India’s New SuperFighter Is Now One Of Top 4 Light Combat Aircraft In The World Along With ‘Idol’ Saab Gripen

Tejas Mk-2 is single-engine aircraft designed by HAL. Tejas jet has been touted as one of four leading light combat aircraft in the world

eurasiantimes.com

50% of the projected requirement evaporated in 3 years, what changed in that time?


Guys come on, tell me you can't see where this is going.

Why did the IAF force the ADA to drop MWF designation?

Why does the IAF mention 114 MRFA at every chance but consistently fails to do the same for the LCA MK.2?


I'll concede they will order the MK.2 but maybe in 2-4 SQN's worth, is that worth getting giddy about? the MK.2 is dead in all but name. Their lust for imports will never end.



Shameless and corrupt crooks.

You are absolutely right.
Long back I predicted the same..... But kuch log pichhwade par kha kar hi seekhte hai.

Recently MWF name was dropped for Tejas MK2. " Kuch samjhe daya"??
Initial demand was 114 MMRCA.1 after buying 36 Rafales still demand is 114 MMRCA.2 . around 2023, after delivery of 36 Rafales IAF will pitch for another 36 rafales ( Most likely will get it ) But Demand of these 114 MMRCA will be there till eternity.
Meanwhile Tejas Mk1A contract keep on delaying

 

[Johny_Baba]

I normally don't post on air force related threads because it is not my cup of tea,

but from what i got to know from telegram groups is that even if IAF happen to desire for more Rafales, they better get 'the machinery' commit to it as soon as possible because almost all assembly lines run by Dassault are getting engaged with orders, from greek 12 units to local french ones (both upgrades and new ones) and others; at this rate there are less chances of giving more orders for that 'next batch' of 36 ones before 2025 at least.

 

[Chinmoy]

When did the IN get convinced to invest in AMCA? The opposite happened. They have gone all in on TEDBF these last 2 years and are convinced they need a clean sheet design.


+ The SQN strength I am projecting for 2035 is what the IAF is clearly working towards based on the 114 MRFA and 0 LCA MK.2

Read my previous statement again. I never said IN got convinced, I only stated that IAF tried to convince IN to invest in N-AMCA instead of a different program.

Even if you consider the time line of 2035, 6 + 3 SQN of Jaguar & Mirages are going to be phased out with high probability of 2+1 SQN of 29s following the order. So even by safe estimate of 9 SQN phasing out, how are you suppose to fulfill it with just 6 SQN of MRFA?

AMCA would start coming out from stable by 2035 only. What till then? Even RKS Bhaduria told that till next decade (2040) we will have to cater with 35 SQN strength. So be assured that we will be phasing out 12 SQN by 2040.

Now coming to ACM speeches, by 2030 we would have 2 more ACMs in all probability. What if the next ACM stop saying anything about AMCA? Would you say that IAF lost interest in AMCA?

On other hand, long ago I told that IAF is interested in a more powerful engine in Tejas. Originally stated to be powered by a 110 kn engine, now 123 Tejas would be powered by a 83 kn engine. People here were mocking me when I said so, but you could see the effects of shoving something down the throat of forces. Unless Mk2 starts to fly with a 110kn engine, you are not going to hear anything about its order from IAF.

 

[Javelin_Sam]

IAF fighter force is way below desired strength. It will still be in 2022, 2023, 2024, 2025, 2026, 2027... What happens if there is an escalation on the western front before quantity deliveries of Mk2/MRFA arrive? GoI rushes off to Dassault and pays whatever price is asked to get hold of more Rafales quickly. Bye bye lots of capital for other projects.

IMO it would be sensible to reduce risk through the maintenance of squadron strength by ordering and making more Mk1A. Last 3 squadrons of MiG-21 are due to go soon, aren't they, which will leave IAF even further below strength than it is now from 2025 onwards.

Fighter jet acquisitions doesn't work like that. If GOI orders 36 additional Rafales in 2022, deliveries will start from 2027 and by 2030 all 36 will be delivered. Keeping the production line running till french 5th gen fighter reaches production stage is of utmost importance to France. They won't quckly deliver any jets. There is nothing we can do to solve the fighter jet shortage that we will face this decade. Numbers will pick up only beyond 2030. Fighter jet acquisitions are long term projects. We missed to do anything in 2005-2014 window.

 

[Spitfire9]

Fighter jet acquisitions doesn't work like that. If GOI orders 36 additional Rafales in 2022, deliveries will start from 2027 and by 2030 all 36 will be delivered. Keeping the production line running till french 5th gen fighter reaches production stage is of utmost importance to France. They won't quckly deliver any jets. There is nothing we can do to solve the fighter jet shortage that we will face this decade. Numbers will pick up only beyond 2030. Fighter jet acquisitions are long term projects. We missed to do anything in 2005-2014 window.

Sums things up in a nutshell. All that can be done now is to mitigate the problems resulting from the inertia of the procurement system and the people involved in it.

It is curious that a country should get itself into this situation when 30 or so years ago it took a strategic decision to develop an independent capacity for fast jet production and reached that goal (series production of Mk1) 10 years ago.

As for mitigation of the shortage, the easiest way I see of doing that is to increase the production rate of Mk1A. It may not be the fighter IAF would choose but IAF would be in a better position to do its job 2025-2030.

 

[abingdonboy]

Sums things up in a nutshell. All that can be done now is to mitigate the problems resulting from the inertia of the procurement system and the people involved in it.

It is curious that a country should get itself into this situation when 30 or so years ago it took a strategic decision to develop an independent capacity for fast jet production and reached that goal (series production of Mk1) 10 years ago.

As for mitigation of the shortage, the easiest way I see of doing that is to increase the production rate of Mk1A. It may not be the fighter IAF would choose but IAF would be in a better position to do its job 2025-2030.

The IAF act like spoilt kids in a toy shop, they don't 'settle', they are too used to getting their way and getting top spec equipment. Look at how they spec'd out the Su-30MKI to be the best Su-27 derivative at that time, they did the same thing with the Rafale through the ISE even if that ended up costing $50m PER JET.

 

[Javelin_Sam]

The IAF act like spoilt kids in a toy shop, they don't 'settle', they are too used to getting their way and getting top spec equipment. Look at how they spec'd out the Su-30MKI to be the best Su-27 derivative at that time, they did the same thing with the Rafale through the ISE even if that ended up costing $50m PER JET.

Nothing regarding the ISE of Rafale is uber top spec. They are very basic things

Among them, Towed decoys is the only thing that sits in uber tech stuff. HMD, IRST are basic things required in modern fighters.

Ground moving Target Track, SAR mode, RWR, LBJ are too important to be left out.

High altitude engine startup is mandatory in Indian conditions.

 

[Kharavela]

You make out like there are mechanisms that keep the IAF in decent shape but instead they absolutely can (and often do) engage in the most self defeating behaviour. There's nothing stopping them from dropping the MK.2 and pursuing the MRFA that will also never happen leading to them dropping their strength yet further. What prevented the IAF from refusing to induct the LCA as their ancient fleet either retired or crashed?

the 2020s/2030s will be absolutely a repeat of the 2000s/2010s- IAF so focused on MMRCA/MRFA that their fleet rots whilst they make impossible demands on the domestic option.

NO.
2020-2030 would be definitely different from 2000-2010 as all purchases are routed through CDS.

As IN has fantasy of expensive Aircraft Carrier, IAF has fantasy for expensive Western Fighter Jets. Both fantasies would remain as fantasies.

As far as LCA-Mk2 is concerned, note my word - LCA-Mk2 would be inducted in numbers.

 

[Vaibhavseafarer]

NO.
2020-2030 would be definitely different from 2000-2010 as all purchases are routed through CDS.

As IN has fantasy of expensive Aircraft Carrier, IAF has fantasy for expensive Western Fighter Jets. Both fantasies would remain as fantasies.

As far as LCA-Mk2 is concerned, note my word - LCA-Mk2 would be inducted in numbers.

Exactly Mk2 will be inducted. No matter wht IAF sy.

 

[WARREN SS]

As much as it hurts me to read this thread and say this; I think the only way we will indigenize is when USA and EU impose arms sanctions against us.

If Modi ji wants IAF and IN to accept domestic jets, then he has to do something that invokes the ire of the West in terms of arms sanctions.

If they sanctioned india
The Indeginious fighter program will go decade ahead induction and I'm talking about
LCA mk1A

Mk2 will be 2035

As GE is still the primary source of Engine
In all indigenous project.
Including AMCA

Like it or not our So called Indeginious industry will crumble moment western Nations sanctioned us.

Even CAATSA will Impact Indian industry with decade in indigenous development.

Engine technology is core of aviation industry
And India is doing zilch in that

All projects LCA mk1A and LCA mk2 or Amca

Are just feel good projects
Until we have reliable and self sufficient Engine development program.

 

[Kharavela]

Going back to Mk1A, does anybody else think that more Mk1A aircraft should be ordered?

Yes, I do.
I have always wondered why IAF is not ordering more Mk1A when they always cry about depleting squadrons ? Mk1A is definitely better than existing Mig-21 / Mig-25 / Jaguar etc comparable to Mirage 2K in terms of performance & handling.

How many shorter range interceptor/limited load strike aircraft could IAF usefully use?

For our western border, personally I don't think any other fighters are needed except LCA Tejas Mk1A (Even LCA Mk2 is not needed).
Additionally, 1 Su-30 MKI could be used as mini-AWACS with every 4 LCA Tejas Mk1A.

I note that there is construction work reported at HAL Bengaluru and wonder if it is to expand assembly capacity (which could be used to build more Mk1A until needed for some other use).

You have guessed right. The new constructions are for capacity expansion.

 

[Kharavela]

Any professnal force will ask for it in 21 st century
As it give supremacy over adversaries

You are absolutely wrong my dear. The era of air superiority through manned fighters are gone. Armenia-Azerbaijan war has proven that in no uncertain terms. The future wars would be fought either by Remotely Piloted Unmanned Systems or Manned-Unmanned Team like proposed CATS.

Giving to the factor if Govt changes after 2024

Rest assured brother. Modi would continue after 2024 as PM of India. Till when ? I can't say now, but at the very least till 2026 when he turns 75.

 

[Kharavela]

If they sanctioned india
The Indeginious fighter program will go decade ahead induction and I'm talking about
LCA mk1A

Mk2 will be 2035

As GE is still the primary source of Engine
In all indigenous project.
Including AMCA

Like it or not our So called Indeginious industry will crumble moment western Nations sanctioned us.

India of 2021 is very different from India of 1998, when western world could sanction us. Now, Geo-political equation wouldn't permit them (particularly Amrica Bahadur) to sanction India.

Even CAATSA will Impact Indian industry with decade in indigenous development.

Please understand that sanctioning Turkey for purchasing S-400 can never be equated with India purchasing S-400.
Example: China has purchased S-400. Has Amrika Bahadur stopped financial dealings with China ?
Wanna bet that India would not face sanction over S-400 ?

Engine technology is core of aviation industry
And India is doing zilch in that

All projects LCA mk1A and LCA mk2 or Amca

Are just feel good projects
Until we have reliable and self sufficient Engine development program.

Agreed with your last line. But India is not doing zilch, you will see results in 2-3 years.

 

[Kharavela]

In a couple of years, at this rate, LCA Mk.2 requirements will be in negative figures.

2018

Looking At 12 Squadrons Of LCA Tejas Mk.2, IAF Chief Confirms - Livefist

With a deal for 36 Rafales for her service at the heart of a political storm, the Indian Air Force chief was prepared for a barrage of questions that have lately seen his senior leadership at the frontlines of defending the deal. Today, he took it upon him. But amidst…

www.livefistdefence.com

2019

IAF tells govt it is ready to buy 300 indigenous fighters and trainers

After several time over-run, the HAL has delivered about a dozen aircraft and fallen behind the scheduled yearly production target. The IAF was forced to raise the first squadron of Tejas fighters with just three in 2016.

www.hindustantimes.com

2021

Tejas Mk-2 – India’s New SuperFighter Is Now One Of Top 4 Light Combat Aircraft In The World Along With ‘Idol’ Saab Gripen

Tejas Mk-2 is single-engine aircraft designed by HAL. Tejas jet has been touted as one of four leading light combat aircraft in the world

eurasiantimes.com

50% of the projected requirement evaporated in 3 years, what changed in that time?


Guys come on, tell me you can't see where this is going.

Why did the IAF force the ADA to drop MWF designation?

Why does the IAF mention 114 MRFA at every chance but consistently fails to do the same for the LCA MK.2?


I'll concede they will order the MK.2 but maybe in 2-4 SQN's worth, is that worth getting giddy about? the MK.2 is dead in all but name. Their lust for imports will never end.



Shameless and corrupt crooks.

Have patience, @abingdonboy. Just wait for right time & you will see:
1) No foren maal would be purchased
2) LCA Mk2 would be inducted in numbers (more than 200)
3) HAL would increase production capacity (with majority of work being done by private players).

 

[Kharavela]

Sums things up in a nutshell. All that can be done now is to mitigate the problems resulting from the inertia of the procurement system and the people involved in it.

It is curious that a country should get itself into this situation when 30 or so years ago it took a strategic decision to develop an independent capacity for fast jet production and reached that goal (series production of Mk1) 10 years ago.

As for mitigation of the shortage, the easiest way I see of doing that is to increase the production rate of Mk1A. It may not be the fighter IAF would choose but IAF would be in a better position to do its job 2025-2030.

Absolutely. I have always advocated this line of thought.
If our Chair-Marshalls are so concerned for depleting squadrons and crying for 42 squadrons (GOD knows how this figure came to existence), why the hell IAF is got issuing a purchase order to HAL for 320 (20 squadrons) LCA Mk1A with strict condition to deliver minimum 2 squadrons every year and complete the order in 10 years ? Let HAL think how they can execute the order.
Even if moratorium of first year is applied, during which HAL would set up production lines for 36 LCA per year, the order can be completed in next 9 years.

 

[Tshering22]

There is no need of sanctions , Ninja Turtle shud shove it into IAF throat just like how Parrikar ji shoved Mk-1A

You are comparing a diamond to a coal lump. Just because they have the same category of matter, doesn't mean their value is the same. Ninda Singh makes Nirmala Sitharaman look like a good defence minister. Manohar ji was an ideologically strong statesman. He was a true leader and a patriot who believed in our country's capabilities. I still feel sad about his demise. Our defence would have been fearsome had he been here today.

 

[WARREN SS]

Agreed with your last line. But India is not doing zilch, you will see results in 2-3 years

Doing in practice means
Funding for Further Kaveri projects
But Govt back out