LCA TEJAS MK1 & MK1A: News and Discussion

[ARVION]

Heard news that 21 additional to the 83 to addede's to the order's is that true ?

 

[piKacHHu]

Sole reasons why composites r used in modern aircraft is to reduce rcs of fighterjets.. metals r cheap .. why on earth composites is used then.

You are completely wrong on composite part ! Composites are not solely used for RCS reduction.

Composites are used in aircraft primarily due to better strength as compared to conventional structural material like Aluminum alloys & Steel (Tensile strength: 1000 MPa & above for typical composites v/s 200-300 MPa for Al-Steel grades). This imparts far better strength is to weight ratio leading to considerable weight savings. Needless to explain significance of weight savings for aircraft design. Other benefits are just by-products.

Refer to this paper if you like to learn more about Aircraft structural materials;

Light-weighting in aerospace component and system design

Light-weighting involves the use of advanced materials and engineering methods to enable structural elements to deliver the same, or enhanced, technic…

www.sciencedirect.com

 

[IndianHawk]

He maybe a Chinese troll or Xinnie the Pooh himself disguised as a schoolgirl posting here.. As long as he has a point.. let's take it fairly. It took us almost 5 years and Mk1A order is still not signed which doesn't have any major modifications that will impact aerodynamics. For MWF.. we are yet to see a prototype with modifications to the frame and then the actual order will come after years of bureaucratic process. Our best case scenario is the production in 2027 and then by the time we expect MWF to see some action after training and tactics.. it will be atleast 2030. Meanwhile let bat munchers come and help keep us on our toes. Good for us!!

His point is mute since tender for mwf jig assembly are out for a long time now and tender for mwf tire were seen recently. So the bird is already in the making. Also he was talking in context of gripen E a program started much earlier which makes it ready before mwf but by the same logic it will be behind mwf in avionics as mwf will take advantage of technologies which are maturing a bit late like drone swarm , GaN based ew and radar , dual color maws , next gen ols/ irst mwf will be a step ahead of gripen E.

Regarding mk1a tests are already going on the lsps. It is getting ready regardless of order timing.
IFR probe is already there. Ew suite and radar + spj directly coming from Israel along with derby ER. All things already integrated together and work flawlessly. So no issues in mating / interference.

Astra already being integrated and uttam and uews already testing on different lsps.

 

[BangaliBabu]

Heard news that 21 additional to the 83 to addede's to the order's is that true ?

which one??

 

[ARVION]

which one??

LCA Teja's MK 2's .

 

[BangaliBabu]

LCA Teja's MK 2's .

83 is for MK1A. MK2 is different....or you're saying MK2 initial order along with MK1A??

 

[ARVION]

83 is for MK1A. MK2 is different....or you're MK@ initial order along with MK1A??

Sorry, Mark 1A's .

 

[BangaliBabu]

You are completely wrong on composite part ! Composites are not solely used for RCS reduction.

Composites are used in aircraft primarily due to better strength as compared to conventional structural material like Aluminum alloys & Steel (Tensile strength: 1000 MPa & above for typical composites v/s 200-300 MPa for Al-Steel grades). This imparts far better strength is to weight ratio leading to considerable weight savings. Needless to explain significance of weight savings for aircraft design. Other benefits are just by-products.

Refer to this paper if you like to learn more about Aircraft structural materials;

Light-weighting in aerospace component and system design

Light-weighting involves the use of advanced materials and engineering methods to enable structural elements to deliver the same, or enhanced, technic…

www.sciencedirect.com

I don't know what's the current worldwide progress on Al-Ti alloys or even for CMCs. But, all I can tell to the members of this forum is that if a combination of alloy or composites will be able to achieve the perovskite or coesite structure (the same mineral/alloy structure as that of the Earth's mantle), it'll be the greatest advancement in composite-alloy metallurgy of this century and ever after.

 

[piKacHHu]

Also he was talking in context of gripen E a program started much earlier which makes it ready before mwf but by the same logic it will be behind mwf in avionics as mwf will take advantage of technologies which are maturing a bit late like drone swarm , GaN based ew and radar , dual color maws , next gen ols/ irst mwf will be a step ahead of gripen E.

Cool !! In the meantime, SAAB engineers has already stopped doing anything meaningful till MWF gets far ahead. Wishful thinking at best.

May be we need to hold our horses till the roll-out of MWF; Because, God forbid, if didn't work as per the expectation or gets delayed, the egg will be all over your face. Be humble while doing comparison; the aircraft under scrutiny (Gripen NG) is already flying and has secured orders overseas.

I don't know what's the current worldwide progress on Al-Ti alloys or even for CMCs. But, all I can tell to the members of this forum is that if a combination of alloy or composites will be able to achieve the perovskite or coesite structure (the same mineral/alloy structure as the Earth's mantle), it'll be the greatest advancement in composite-alloy metallurgy of this century and ever after.

Well, the Su-30 structure is a whole metal Ti-Al alloy. Soviets had pioneered in Ti-based materials. Ti-alloys are also used in turbine engines as well (Primary compressor blades).

Based on my limited knowledge about perovskite, it's primary application in piezoelectric materials and currently it is the candidate material for "Material Engineering" in which attempts are being made to design a material based on your requirement rather than selecting the material. Indeed, it's a novel approach and would have path breaking consequences if successful. You will be surprised to know that people has started applying Machine learning to predict material properties of perovskite in advance. However, IMO, their application to aviation industry is still miles away.

For reference, Nature's publication on Machine learning in Material informatics:

Machine learning in materials informatics: recent applications and prospects - npj Computational Materials

Propelled partly by the Materials Genome Initiative, and partly by the algorithmic developments and the resounding successes of data-driven efforts in other domains, informatics strategies are beginning to take shape within materials science. These approaches lead to surrogate machine learning...

www.nature.com

The phenomenological model was later employed to systematically screen and identify perovskite compounds with high breakdown strength. The purely machine learning based screening revealed that boron-containing compounds are of particular interest, some of which were predicted to exhibit remarkable intrinsic breakdown strength of ~1 GV/m (see Fig. 3d). These predictions were subsequently confirmed using first principles computations.32

 

[Why so serious?]

So dont blame Indian or Israeli pilots if they say I want the best plane we can afford, and I dont shit where its made.

It does not come down to what the pilots want , it comes down to what the country can afford. We cannot keep on planning for today, a country needs to plan long term too. IAF is never going to reach 42 squadrons on imports.

There is saying in Marathi for stubborn behaviour " khain tar tupashi, nahi tar upaashi "

Translation : I will go hungry but won't eat anything other than ghee.

 

[IndianHawk]

Cool !! In the meantime, SAAB engineers has already stopped doing anything meaningful till MWF gets far ahead. Wishful thinking at best.

So tell me exactly what Saab engineers are doing right now?? We are running AMCA tedbf in parallel with mk1a and tedbf . Also building ghatak ( AURA) simultaneously.

What are Saab building after gripen on their own ?? What path lies ahead for next gen technologies coming from Saab stable?

Mwf will get all avionics upgrade planned for or developed in future for tedbf orca and even su30 upgrades. That included supersonic bramhos NG and hypersonic missiles based on scramjet tech recently tested . It includes drone swarm being developed for lca sport and amca .

What is upgrade path for gripen ?? It's flying because they started decades ahead of us in aerospace and yet their previous gripen E is barely 4-5 years ahead of mwf. And doesn't even compare to tedbf or amca.

Remember gripen M the paper plane ? We have actually landed nlca on an aircraft carrier what has Saab done??

. Be humble while doing comparison; the aircraft under scrutiny (Gripen NG) is already flying and has secured orders overseas

Tell that to Saab who think their gripen is better than rafale and will shoot down f35 in a jiffy.

It secured order even before flying because Sweden has a reliable fighter jets production industry going back decades. Doesn't change the fact that mwf is already a better design.

 

[aerokan]

We have pushed back tejas and other indigenous programs for so many years because of the exact point he is making. We have already purchased Rafale for the stop gap, why do we need gripen now? It was also in the race with rafale and rafale has beaten it. Advocating gripen is just beating a dead horse. And advocating gripen instead of Tejas is just pure lobbying.

I think you got me confused with the gripen lobby.

ARVION said:
MWF is already at the edge of the current technology's, dont worry we have already catch up with them's .

no smoking said:
Excuse me, where is MWF? Oh, it is still on the paper, we haven't seen a single prototype yet. On the other hand, Gripen E has been in the test flying since 2017.

ARVION said:
Sorry sir but on this , you are wrong it is in a advance way where many parts and critical technology are being tested , you may be Wright's about the protopying as we still are few years away from prototyping the MWF's .

IndianHawk said:
He is a Chinese troll.


This is how it went. I was only referring to taking factual consideration of matters even if it comes from Chinese posters here like @no smoking. And he is not advocating Gripen either. Only contesting our claims of grandiose. That is fine as long as they keep us on our toes and help us be better. I would prefer Tejas anyday over Gripen or Rafale.

 

[piKacHHu]

Doesn't change the fact that mwf is already a better design.

Since you know everything; it doesn't leave anything to debate.

 

[IndiaRising]

Import Air Force Is going to burn 27 billion dollars on imports
-7 billion on 36 Rafales
-5 billion on S400
- now they pushing for 15 Billion dollar deal for 114 MRCA..

This is criminal waste of money.

 

[Immanuel]

Import Air Force Is going to burn 27 billion dollars on imports
-7 billion on 36 Rafales
-5 billion on S400
- now they pushing for 15 Billion dollar deal for 114 MRCA..

This is criminal waste of money.

I don't see this as a waste but necessity. There is nothing like Rafale in the works; XR-SAM is still at least 5-7 years from testing and induction. So yes the S-400 will plug in gaps for a while. The initial plan for S-400 was for around 12 regiments, cut down to 5 due to XR-SAM in the works.

 

[IndiaRising]

I don't see this as a waste but necessity. There is nothing like Rafale in the works; XR-SAM is still at least 5-7 years from testing and induction. So yes the S-400 will plug in gaps for a while. The initial plan for S-400 was for around 12 regiments, cut down to 5 due to XR-SAM in the works.

and where is the money for the AWACS, EW aircraft, mid air refueling tankers, and not to mention upgrading frontline air base infra?

 

[cannonfodder]

I don't see this as a waste but necessity. There is nothing like Rafale in the works; XR-SAM is still at least 5-7 years from testing and induction. So yes the S-400 will plug in gaps for a while. The initial plan for S-400 was for around 12 regiments, cut down to 5 due to XR-SAM in the works.

It is true that some of these purchases are necessity now. But then resources are limited and if we go for 114 MRCA (either we go for gripen or rafale or f-18), how much budget resources left for MWF, Mk1A, AMCA etc. I think we may be over-estimating PLA/CCP air capability on LAC, we need to ramp up production of MK1/MK1A & free up resources meant for western stooges. I only see this panic buy mode by IAF to import stuff, no one encouraging smaller SMSE's , HAL to step on the gas to increase local production. Our whole problem currently has been this limited capital for internal R&D & covid has aggravated overall economic issue.

 

[no smoking]

Sorry sir but on this , you are wrong it is in a advance way where many parts and critical technology are being tested , you may be Wright's about the protopying as we still are few years away from prototyping the MWF's .

Testing something doesn't mean this thing is better than other foreign product. There are plenty of examples of that actual performance is much lower than the scientists claim because:
1. Scientists, just like others, boast their work, no matter he or she is Chinese, Indian or American. They are not lying, just forget to tell you under what condition they achieve this performance.
2. Scientists generally only talk about his area without considering other sub-systems. However, jet is a platform combined with dozens sub-systems. The performance of each sub-system is inevitably affected by others. Sometime, you have to downgrade one sub-system to fit in

 

[Chandragupt Maurya]

IAF should buy 36 more Rafales and invest the rest of the money in MWF ORCA and Tejas MK1A and if possible an upgraded variant MK1B

 

[LondonParisTokyo]

IAF should buy Tejas and work on developing an indigenous ecosystem. The Indian mentality is sad. Nobody wants to be responsible for any decision. Everybody wants a Rolls Royce but they can barely afford a Toyota. It's ridiculous. The smart move would be order as many Tejas as can be afforded.