LCA TEJAS MK1 & MK1A: News and Discussion

[Emperor Kalki]

Well you're wrong... Now I'm sure, as IAF themselves described that double turn maneuver in recent displays as loop+min-radius-turn & they all take 20sec now. Bahrain... Lima... Aero India... Defexpo...
In your example video it takes longer, not because of "lot of other variables" but because it is of an outdated prototype vehicle flying in it.

.

Anyways that's all moot discussion. Official source;
https://www.tejas.gov.in/featured_articles/air_marshal_msd_wollen/page_02.html

And ^that probably is outdated data too. Fuckers haven't updated the MTOW from 12500kg since 2015... It is 14100kg now. They will try for 14500kg soon I hear.

Okay..."the variables" i said are not for the manoeuvre in the video i shared, but for other ones.....that's just a level flight 360 turn and that is not why it takes longer in that video, its because it was probably done before they opened up its flight envelope for any more than that rate.....its a video from 2009, so not even an ioc one......that's why....other than that....i am fine with what you are saying....

 

[piKacHHu]

MTOW 12500kg. It will be super-sonic at all altitudes, max speed of M 1.5 at the tropopause. Specific excess power and g-over load data has not been published. Maximum sustained rate of turn will be 17 deg per sec and maximum attainable 30 deg per sec.

May be you haven't read the document carefully, it's not the actual performance data but the requirement or ASQR for LCA. Nowhere in the document it is written that they have achieved this performance in any Tejas prototype or IOC/FOC. It would be helpful if you put actual value achieved for IOC/FOC version, may be HVT can tell us about that, rather than video-analyzing.

For STR, there is some confusion w.r.t its definition. Point to remember, not every turn could be considered for measuring STR. Only turn in level flight (or in horizontal plane/ or Lateral turn) is used for measuring STR.
And also remember, the STR is affected by lots of parameters, hence any STR value will be accompanied by altitude, speed, g load etc. Therefore, in most of the cases maximum STR is quoted along with the altitude assuming full afterburner & max. Gs.

 

[IndianHawk]

May be you haven't read the document carefully, it's not the actual performance data but the requirement or ASQR for LCA.

Since asqr calls for 18 degrees of str why would they mention 17 degrees if it's asqr data??

30° itr achieved . Mtow is upward 14100 kg according to hvt and indranil .
Range exceeds that of jaguar. So when all of that is true why so much doubt of 17 ° str.

 

[Emperor Kalki]

May be you haven't read the document carefully, it's not the actual performance data but the requirement or ASQR for LCA. Nowhere in the document it is written that they have achieved this performance in any Tejas prototype or IOC/FOC. It would be helpful if you put actual value achieved for IOC/FOC version, may be HVT can tell us about that, rather than video-analyzing.

For STR, there is some confusion w.r.t its definition. Point to remember, not every turn could be considered for measuring STR. Only turn in level flight (or in horizontal plane/ or Lateral turn) is used for measuring STR.
And also remember, the STR is affected by lots of parameters, hence any STR value will be accompanied by altitude, speed, g load etc. Therefore, in most of the cases maximum STR is quoted along with the altitude assuming full afterburner & max. Gs.

View attachment 49544


View attachment 49545

View attachment 49546

Yep and STR was one of the ASQR reqs that was not met by mk 1....hence more drag reduction work on mk 2 ....anyway, i think we should leave this quarrel behind.....looking at the past history of this and similar threads, I can definitely see this becoming a lot more worse than this......

 

[Emperor Kalki]

Since asqr calls for 18 degrees of str why would they mention 17 degrees if it's asqr data??

30° itr achieved . Mtow is upward 14100 kg according to hvt and indranil .
Range exceeds that of jaguar. So when all of that is true why so much doubt of 17 ° str.

I believed that 18 deg was ASQR....i may have made that mistake.. sorry, must be 17 since this article says that....my bad.....
Actually if i remember correctly HvT sir did say something about the str some time back....maybe we can ask him to clear the fog on this when he is back.....

 

[Bleh]

May be you haven't read the document carefully, it's not the actual performance data but the requirement or ASQR for LCA. Nowhere in the document it is written that they have achieved this performance in any Tejas prototype or IOC/FOC.
It would be helpful if you put actual value achieved for IOC/FOC version, may be HVT can tell us about that, rather than video-analyzing.

I know that's not the ASQR.
And since the data is old (IOC time) I assumed Tejas has reached that claimed "will be" level, now that FOC has been achieved. Also because 17/sec tallies with the the 360°/21sec turning time.

I know that original ASQR was 18°/sec that IOC couldn't meet (2010 data) so Mark2 was to meet it. Present MWF is expected to reach atleast 20°/sec (twitter)... HVT's twitter account is down again, or else we wouldn't be discussing anything.

For STR, there is some confusion w.r.t its definition. Point to remember, not every turn could be considered for measuring STR. Only turn in level flight (or in horizontal plane/ or Lateral turn) is used for measuring STR.
And also remember, the STR is affected by lots of parameters, hence any STR value will be accompanied by altitude, speed, g load etc. Therefore, in most of the cases maximum STR is quoted along with the altitude assuming full afterburner & max. Gs

Good point.

I reckoned time taken to do a minimum radius turn at low altitude, should be a safe bet. However if quickest turn (ie max STR) is not minimum radius, but at larger curve at higher speed then STR should be even higher than the 20sec in 360° min-rad-turns.

 

[Emperor Kalki]

I know that's not the ASQR.
And since the data is old (IOC time) I assumed Tejas has reached that claimed "will be" level, now that FOC has been achieved... Also 17/sec tallies with the the 360°/21sec turning time.

I know that original ASQR was 18°/sec that IOC couldn't meet (2010 data) so Mark2 was to meet it. Present MWF is expected to reach atleast 20°/sec (twitter).
HVT's twitter account is down again, or else we wouldn't be discussing anything.
Good point.

I reckoned time taken to do a minimum radius turn at low altitude, should be a safe bet... however if quickest turn (ie max STR) is not minimum radius, but at larger curve at higher speed then STR should be even higher than the 20sec in 360° min-rad-turns.

Let me try to clear the confusion here.....this level flight horizontal turn is done by display teams to demonstrate the max STR......and the one you are talking about, i.e, the min radius turn, is more a BFM compared to this one....the min radius turn is to quickly turn the aircraft's direction whereas the level flight 360 is just a display of the max STR the aircraft can achieve...as a sales pitch at the airshow......there it is.........
Now, do you remember the talk by someone else, about gripen having the best str and itr in the world, this may be a bit exaggerated, but if you see the video i shared, it turns really fast, and that's because of its higher str, may not be the highest, but definitely high and they do this manoeuvre to demonstrate it to possible customers....

 

[Bleh]

..this level flight horizontal turn is done by display teams to demonstrate the max STR......and the one you are talking about, i.e, the min radius turn, is more a BFM compared to this one....the min radius turn is to quickly turn the aircraft's direction whereas the level flight 360 is just a display of the max STR the aircraft can achieve...

If a jet is seen doing a 360° turn in 21 seconds... Then a possible sustained turn rate... by said aircraft... is atleast 17°/sec.
Mathematically the STR of said aircraft... can only be higher... & not lower that what was demonstrated... at that altitude & airspeed.

Can't make any simpler that that!.. Broke up the sentences, chew before swallowing.

 

[Emperor Kalki]

In even more simple terms.

If a jet is seen doing a 360° turn in 21 seconds... Then a possible sustained turn rate... by said aircraft... is atleast 17°/sec.
Mathematically the STR of said aircraft... can only be higher... & not lower that what was demonstrated... at that altitude & airspeed.

Can't make any simpler that that. Broke up the sentence, chew before swallowing.

Exactly what i was saying....in this case 17deg is the str.....

 

[Bleh]

Exactly what i was saying....in this case 17deg is the str.....

Then what the fuck were we people discussing?!!..

Ok, we need to log out for some time. Lol

 

[Emperor Kalki]

If a jet is seen doing a 360° turn in 21 seconds... Then a possible sustained turn rate... by said aircraft... is atleast 17°/sec.
Mathematically the STR of said aircraft... can only be higher... & not lower that what was demonstrated... at that altitude & airspeed.

Can't make any simpler that that!.. Broke up the sentences, chew before swallowing.

I don't see how it can get higher......could you elaborate on that....

 

[Emperor Kalki]

Then what the fuck were we people discussing?!!..

Ok, we need to log out for some time. Lol

No.... i repiled before you edited the post...

 

[Bleh]

I don't see how it can get higher......could you elaborate on that....

In case not demonstrated... Demonstrated value is minimum proven. Not the maximum attainable value.

No.... i repiled before you edited the post...

Yeah sorry, bad habit. Never get it the 1st time.
Give me a few minutes.

 

[Emperor Kalki]

Then what the fuck were we people discussing?!!..

Ok, we need to log out for some time. Lol

Agree on the logging out part....

 

[patriots]

Agree on the logging out part....

Carry on .....
Love to read quality discussion

 

[Emperor Kalki]

Carry on .....
Love to read quality discussion

Well, in my guess this would probably go on untill HvT sir's return....untill then you will probably get a lot more of this quality....lol

 

[Emperor Kalki]

https://www.tejas.gov.in/featured_articles/air_marshal_msd_wollen/page_02.html

Well you're wrong... Now I'm sure, as IAF themselves described that double turn maneuver in recent displays as loop+min-radius-turn & they all take 20sec now. Bahrain... Lima... Aero India... Defexpo...
In your example video it takes longer, not because of "lot of other variables" but because it is of an outdated prototype vehicle flying in it.

.

Anyways that's all moot discussion. Official source;
https://www.tejas.gov.in/featured_articles/air_marshal_msd_wollen/page_02.html

And ^that probably is outdated data too. Fuckers clearly haven't updated since 2015... The MTOW from 12500kg is 14100kg now. They will try for 14500kg soon I hear.

The 3rd page of this article says that it was first written in 2001 for "Indian Aviation" and it sure does talk about the first flight and only that flight....so even if it was later edited, the sentence after the part you quoted suggests that this was written before the time of sanctioning of funds for naval variant....and that was in 2003.....so no way 17 deg was the STR in 2003.... And it does talk about achieving IOC in 2010......lol........ this is most probably talking about the ASQR and it is written about in the first page of the article....

 

[Bleh]

The 3rd page of this article says that it was first written in 2001 for "Indian Aviation" and it sure does talk about the first flight and only that flight....so even if it was later edited, the sentence after the part you quoted suggests that this was written before the time of sanctioning of funds for naval variant....and that was in 2003.....so no way 17 deg was the STR in 2003.... And it does talk about achieving IOC in 2010......lol........ this is most probably talking about the ASQR and it is written about in the first page of the article....

Eeeeeh, I don't want to make any rash comment on that.
I don't even know if they update the page or its been like that forever. But looks like there's a good chance that could indeed be ASQR. Was it readjusted for Mark1?

Anyways, atleast 19sec loop & 21sec sustained turn has been demonstrated at certain (unknown) airspeed at low altitude... Whether it can do any higher at any , is still debated. I'd rather leave it at that.

Also Tejas of 45th can hold 29°/sec ITR for ±200° as demonstrated here covering the turn in roughly 7sec (1:55 to 1:62)...

 

[Emperor Kalki]

Eeeeeh, I don't want to make any rash comment on that.
I don't even know if they update the page or its been like that forever. But looks like there's a good chance that could indeed be ASQR. Was it readjusted for Mark1?

Anyways, atleast 19sec loop & 21sec sustained turn has been demonstrated at certain (unknown) airspeed at low altitude... Whether it can do any higher at any , is still debated. I'd rather leave it at that.

Also Tejas of 45th can hold 29°/sec ITR for ±200° as demonstrated here covering the turn in roughly 7sec (1:55 to 1:62)...

No, its an article for a magazine....so no editing will be done....and I don't know about any readjustment.....if any one here has a really good idea about the ASQR, better speak up now....

 

[Bleh]

I have a question regarding Tejas’s A2G weaponry.
@porky_kicker @Karthi @Chinmoy @IndianHawk

While ground-attack has been recognised as its greatest strength, atleast where it is ahead of everything else in IAF, I have never seen it with anything other than strike package... HSLD or LGB or ASM is meant for large static targets like fuel/ammo depot, supply convoy, logistics & infra.
But does it have any small sized precision weapons like, anti-infantry cluster bombs & anti-tank sensor fused warheads?.. Or even those unguided rocket pods?

J-Max has some interesting options, are these tech available or conceptual?