LCA TEJAS MK1 & MK1A: News and Discussion

[IndianHawk]

Talking as if you are the designer or Director of ADA who can have last word on anything related to Tejas;
Mr. Knowitall, you've got upset out of proportion when I read out the IAF recent testimony in SC which is a fact. Calling names don't help in a technical discussion; it rather shows your lack of knowledge/skills to counter the opposing argument.

IAF was defending rafale purchase and made comments in that context.
Now lca mk1a will have aesa before su30 mki so will IAF say that it lca is ahead of su30? Not really.

Another thing lca foc lacks both aesa and ew suite and hence is behind su30 or mirage. But they will all be upgraded to lca mk1a with aesa and ew and longer range bvr.

So for comparison definite lca is lca mk1a.
With elta 2052 + spj + derbyEr / Astra it will be more lethal than mirage upgrade with pesa + mica combo!

It will still have short legs as it is smaller but as an intercepter and air to air fighter it will be far more lethal than mirage upgrade and mig29 upgrade.

In range and payload it will be behind both of them still.

That's where mwf comes into play.

 

[Bleh]

Talking as if you are the designer or Director of ADA who can have last word on anything related to Tejas;
Mr. Knowitall, you've got upset out of proportion when I read out the IAF recent testimony in SC which is a fact. Calling names don't help in a technical discussion; it rather shows your lack of knowledge/skills to counter the opposing argument.

Your words clearly exude that you can't differentiate between whether it's being said about IOC or FOC version, nor capabilities of Elta-2052 & ES-05, not between Gripen & Tejas versions either.

Anyways it was addressed to others... No offence meant.

Another thing lca foc lacks both aesa and ew suite and hence is behind su30 or mirage.

Will it though? They can't seriously allow a brand new jet to take flight without spj!.. Especially when Mark1A too will be mounting an external one on pylon, why can't FOC? Know anything on that?

 

[IndianHawk]

Tejas MK1A is superior to JF 17 Blk 1,2&3 , we can Use Mk1 against Pakistani old generation Mirage and JF 17 . MWF will be similarly capable (90Percentage atleast) as Gripen NG . We can use MWF to counter PAF F16 and Chinese J10 . So Tejas makes sense . And Tejas is the only reason we now developing MWF, TEDBF , and AMCA . Tejas is the base for all these , Shortcomings are part of any development . Is there any country which developed a 4th gen fighter from scratch We done it we need to build upon it .

Mk1a can take down f16 and j10 too. It will have elta 2052 which is far more capable than radars of either paki f16 or j10 . And with derby ER and Astra it will out range aim120c5/c7 comfortably.

The only shortcoming is that it can't go to strike deep into china . But for Pakistan it is more than adequate as most targets are within it's combat radius.

 

[piKacHHu]

Fighter jets generation are a subjective matter, I mean what are you looking for, it can be classified in many ways
1) which Era"s design: During WW1, WW2, Before 80"s and after 80"s
2) Including Major technology( Basic ): subsonic, Supersonic at all altitude, Radar, BVR missiles, EWS, Stealth
3) Comparative: when overall performance is lesser than respective aircraft, like Gripen-E vs Tejas Mk1 ( IOC) then in layman term you can say Gripen is 4th generation and Tejas is 3.5 ( This what IAF said in Supreme court)

Technically generations belong to Basic specifications ( point no. 2) so Tejas is 4th generation but when you are pitting one aircraft against another then one has to consider "Capability" that's why we often hear 4++ generation, 4.5 generation. These are more marketing terms than Basics

Well I agree about ++/0.5 aspect added to the Integers of generation of fighter aircraft as marketing tools but broadly the generations are quite distinct in terms of features and capabilities.

For Tejas IOC, the primary reason for putting it 3.5+ gen could be attributed to lack of A-A refueling or limited flight envelop; may be IAF can better elaborate on that as the IOC itself has many features lying under 4th gen category.
The testimony I am talking about is not a casual statement given by IAF in any public or private forum or media gathering; it's a well thought off statement as any retraction to it will amount to perjury before Supreme Court. I am searching for parliamentary replies related to Tejas given by govt. so far not able to dig any one that would put final word on generation of Tejas IOC.
However, as per these classification tables (Courtesy Google), FOC & Mk1A Tejas will definitely lie in 4 and beyond gen fighters.

 

[IndianHawk]

One has too understand why IAF now wants mwf more and less mk1/mk1a.

There are two reasons
1st Dawn of electronic warfare. Mwf can carry both internal ew and external jammers while mk1a due to small size can only carry external jammers.

2. Range. Because of recent two front war concept. IAF wants planes that it can send to either frontier at will. An mk1a based against Pakistan can't go laddakh frontier fast if needed there. But an mwf can do that. Hence providing double deterrence against both pakistan and china.

Lca was conceptualised before these two concepts became prominent and hence mwf is required.

If we were focusing just on Pakistani as before than mk1a would suffice .

 

[IndianHawk]

For Tejas IOC, the primary reason for putting it 3.5+ gen could be attributed to lack of A-A refueling or limited flight envelop; may be IAF can better elaborate on that as the IOC itself has many features lying under 4th gen category.

IAF can define generations at will. It doesn't have to copy USA classification. For example Chinese use different generation concepts.

Iaf was justifying rafale purchase it even called su30 as 4th gen while it has previously called su30mki as 4.5 gen.

 

[Karthi]

Mk1a can take down f16 and j10 too. It will have elta 2052 which is far more capable than radars of either paki f16 or j10 . And with derby ER and Astra it will out range aim120c5/c7 comfortably.

The only shortcoming is that it can't go to strike deep into china . But for Pakistan it is more than adequate as most targets are within it's combat radius.

MK 1A match J10 and F16 in some criterias but it will be 50:50 chance we need to use a superior platform to defeat them decisively

 

[piKacHHu]

Your words clearly exude that you can't differentiate between whether it's being said about IOC or FOC version, nor capabilities of Elta-2052 & ES-05, not Gripen & Tejas versions either.

Anyways it was addressed to others... No offence meant.
Will it though?.. They can't seriously allow a new jet to take flight without spj!

Please go through the article and the my posts; the statement was made by IAF for Tejas UNDER INDUCTION, which is the 40 aircraft of the initial order. First 18 were IOC, and the FOC Tejas just took the first flight recently; it has not been handed over to IAF so far; hence it could be safely deduced that IAF is referring to IOC Tejas.
Would like enlighten how you concluded that I am not able to distinguish between IOC & FOC? Just Ignorance or Sense of Superiority ?

By the way, this was my opinion for the IAF classification.

This comment must be referring to lack of capabilities of IOC standard Tejas which was under induction at those times (A-to -A refueling, absence of BVR capabilities are the reasons). I don't know whether the IAF would change its generation to 4.5 after receiving FOC Tejas. Only time will tell.

If we believe IAF or the general opinion floating around, this could be the possible classification for Tejas Derivatives

Tejas IOC : 3.5++
Tejas FOC: 4th Gen
Tejas Mk1A: 4.5+ Gen

But here comes the problem; Rafale & Eurofighter also claim to be 4.5+ gen aircraft. So, where do we stand in terms of classification for Mk1A?

FYI, only Radar doesn't make or break generation classification so your knowledge of Elta-2052 & ES-05 isn't going to make a huge difference.

 

[IndianHawk]

Again eurofighter doesn't have an aesa uptill now. So how does it claim 4.5 gen.

Even rafale got aesa in later batches only.

The lesson is that so long a plane is capable of incorporating modern equipment radars, ew suite , software upgrade , new gen weaponry etc. It can be 4th gen evolving into 4 .5 gen as per upgrads.

Su30 , rafale , Eurocopter , lca all are capable of these upgrades and hence all are 4th gen evolving into 4 .5 gen . Rafale is already there others are following.

 

[vishnugupt]

Well I agree about ++/0.5 aspect added to the Integers of generation of fighter aircraft as marketing tools but broadly the generations are quite distinct in terms of features and capabilities.
View attachment 47889
View attachment 47890
View attachment 47891

For Tejas IOC, the primary reason for putting it 3.5+ gen could be attributed to lack of A-A refueling or limited flight envelop; may be IAF can better elaborate on that as the IOC itself has many features lying under 4th gen category.
The testimony I am talking about is not a casual statement given by IAF in any public or private forum or media gathering; it's a well thought off statement as any retraction to it will amount to perjury before Supreme Court. I am searching for parliamentary replies related to Tejas given by govt. so far not able to dig any one that would put final word on generation of Tejas IOC.
However, as per these classification tables (Courtesy Google), FOC & Mk1A Tejas will definitely lie in 4 and beyond gen fighters.

It is all about how you want to classify. There is a primary requirement ( must have), the secondary requirements and tertiary ( Negotiable ). Technically classification belongs to primary requirements.

Primary requirements are basics like Speed, manoeuvrability, BVR, including radars, Stealth and secondary requirements help to achieve basic requirements like FBW system, data fusion, Pulse doppler radar, AESA Radar, you cant make a 2 generation aircraft 4th generation by putting AESA Radar or data fusion technique
Tertiary requirements are Like IRP, Retractable prove, precise weapons or Meteor. these depend on customer
If you see closely the first pic you can put Tejas ( FOC ) right into 4.5 generation group because it has features compare to others when they developed in their respective era.
IAF asked in the supreme court that what rafale have which don't have in Su-30 MKI and Tejas and what supposed to be answer?? Obviously, they explained capabilities of all three which is somewhat same but rafale is no doubt more capable so to a layman IAF have to conclude their argument by saying Rafale is a generation ahead of Su-30

 

[Karthi]

United States defines 4.5-generation fighter as Fighters with AESA radar, high-capacity data-link, enhanced avionics, and current and Future advanced Weapons .

Tejas MK1A has .

AESA Radar.
Bnet Software Defined Radio for advanced data link.
Avionics are good.
Weapons are Derby , ASTRA , R77 and also Meteor( the codes are already integrated I think).

So technically Tejas is 4.5 generation

 

[Bleh]

Well, you shouldn't use arguments like this:
"As the Beyond Visual Range (BVR) missile in the HAL-built indigenous Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) is still under induction, it can be classified as 3.5+ generation."

^Several years old statement about IOC that are not meant for combat until upgraded to fire BVR (should have started by 2020 but @WARREN SS says otherwise) & gets software upgrades, but to test platform's life-cycle, capability & formulate tactics.

If we believe IAF or the general opinion floating around, this could be the possible classification for Tejas Derivatives

Tejas IOC : 3.5++
Tejas FOC: 4th Gen
Tejas Mk1A: 4.5+ Gen

But here comes the problem; Rafale & Eurofighter also claim to be 4.5+ gen aircraft. So, where do we stand in terms of classification for Mk1A?

Anyways, this is a proper argument. Be it Flankers or Euro-canards or Murican-muscle fighters, they all vary widely between versions. Which is why 4, 4+, 4++ classifications exist within 4th Gen themselves but compared to 5th Gen they're all termed 4.5 gen.

So technically, there are just features... Now that too vary.
Some features like stealth, internal bays that are platform dependent. RCS have been decreased in a Su-35, but not too any level that make a difference.
Some like super-maneuverability can be introduced by means like increased AoA with new flight software (ET, F-35) or new TVC engine (J-10/20).
Others like AESA radar, avionics, advanced cockpit system , HMD, intergrated EW, towed decoy etc. can be installed on any 4th gen platform (provided its design allows progressive upgradation).

FOC is firmly 4+ gen, Mark1A is 4++.

Beyond that it gets blurred...

MWF to get semi-stealth via new composites & RAM with all of AMCA tech that'll be available by the time it is ready. Putting it with F-15EX or SH Blk3.

AMCA Mark1 won't supercruise (but GripenE A2A config will) unless F414-EPE becomes a reality. But it is otherwise a 5th gen.

AMCA Mark2 with 119kN engine, all going well, is planned to have unmanned wingman possibly anti-missile DEW too, which are entering 6th gen tech. So it may be 5+.

Now ORCA, if it materialises, will very likely feature frontal stealth, with conformal bays, stealthy external weapon-pods... 4.5+ gen. But beyond that, if the tech matures both the last 2 may be optionally manned (see ORCA thread). AI completely a 6th gen feature!

All these directly factored by tech hurdles, delays, fund crunch etc.

So shit be more complex than can be explained in a infographic (they make those for the absolute laymans).

 

[HariPrasad-1]

Please go through the article and the my posts; the statement was made by IAF for Tejas UNDER INDUCTION, which is the 40 aircraft of the initial order. First 18 were IOC, and the FOC Tejas just took the first flight recently; it has not been handed over to IAF so far; hence it could be safely deduced that IAF is referring to IOC Tejas.
Would like enlighten how you concluded that I am not able to distinguish between IOC & FOC? Just Ignorance or Sense of Superiority ?

By the way, this was my opinion for the IAF classification.





If we believe IAF or the general opinion floating around, this could be the possible classification for Tejas Derivatives

Tejas IOC : 3.5++
Tejas FOC: 4th Gen
Tejas Mk1A: 4.5+ Gen

But here comes the problem; Rafale & Eurofighter also claim to be 4.5+ gen aircraft. So, where do we stand in terms of classification for Mk1A?

FYI, only Radar doesn't make or break generation classification so your knowledge of Elta-2052 & ES-05 isn't going to make a huge difference.

Actually I was very impressed with Tejas mk2 model which was designed initially with 0.5 m longer fuselage, 0.5 m longer nose cone. Its weight was reduced to 6100 kg in design. It could have come closer to Gripen C/D. It might have super cruised. Tejas has aerodynamic limitations which need to be addressed as much as possible. Due to its short length, the problem can not be resolved fully. Let us hope that in LCA mk1A some work on weight, aerodynamic and intake redesign is done along with electronics. They say that it will be best in class but I want it to match Gripen C/D.

 

[Saichand K]

But does anybody know what is the status of Mk1A. Full Hush Hush.. What measures are being taken to reduce the weight.. How can they improve the aerodynamics without modifying the structure??

 

[Bleh]

Looks like work has resumed.

Tejas mk2 model which was designed initially with 0.5 m longer fuselage, 0.5 m longer nose cone. Its weight was reduced to 6100 kg in design.

Which source did you get this from? They indicated some 7000kg empty weight, but never seen any confirmation .

But does anybody know what is the status of Mk1A. Full Hush Hush.. What measures are being taken to reduce the weight.. How can they improve the aerodynamics without modifying the structure??

No weekly updates cone for AESA, EW etc.
Much of the work on Mark1A is basically to make it more maintainable with some material, cockpit & software improvements. Don't expect it to be visibly ant different from this.

No comments on weight reduction or redesigning of landing gear, but dont expect more than few hundred kilos overall. They're adding stuff too that may undo minor weight reductions.

Aerodynamics can be slightly improved by very small surface or shape modifications, and also by sofistication of flight control software that governs the movement of control planes.

 

[rohit b3]

Every couple of new capabilities added does not leap a fighter to a new generation. There are certain core aspects of a fighter that can be used to define a generation.
For example
Flight controls - 3rd gen designs had mechanical Flight controls, while 4th gen started introducing the first fly by wires. 4.5th gen enhanced it to Quadruplux Digital Fly by Wire, something that we see in Tejas, Su-30MKI, Rafale, Eurofighter, etc
Design : Unstable design with relaxed static stability is a 4.5th gen feature as against a more conventional stable design of 4th gen fighters like Mirage2000.
Aircraft make : Upto 4th generation we all know it was the standard metal make. Introduction of composite structure started in the 4.5th gen platforms.
Stealth : Again Semi-Stealth was introduced in 4.5th gen.
Cockpit : 4th gen

Vs 4.5th gen

And so on...

Basically 4.5th gen features include core technologies that cannot be upgraded on an existing model. You cannot put a Quadruplux FBW on an old IAF Jaguar, or strip it down and resdesign it to improve unstablility.
Yes you can add certain aspects in the cockpit, but again that would be a mixture of Digital and analog cockpit unlike the 4.5th gen 100% digital glass cockpit.

There are some other 4.5th gen aspects like AESA , EW suite, etc..but those can be upgraded on existing models.

 

[WARREN SS]

@WARREN SS says otherwise

I didn't Said anything My self
But What was reported by MOD briefing

Regional Centre for Military Airworthiness (RCMA), a unit of DRDO has cleared the series production aircraft of Squadron 45, to be equipped with Derby operational capability.

No. 45 Squadron IAF - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

LCA Tejas Achieves Yet Another Milestone Towards FOC Certification

 

[wraith96]

MOD Babus at it again...

 

[G10]

MOD Babus at it again...
View attachment 47907

This is how corruption kills indigenous defence ecosystem. While we readily dole out money for foreign suppliers we can take indigenous suppliers for a hike.

 

[Suryavanshi]

MOD Babus at it again...
View attachment 47907

Seeing all this makes me appreciate People like Manohar Parikkar even more.
He has done this nation a great service by pulling back tejas from its eventual demise.
Had it been Anyone else the MOD would have spined files in the office until the Project was dead.

Many niggas in this foum itself had criticised him for dressing senses and unorthodox mannerism, he wasn't a man of appearance but substance.