Re: Indian Navy most powerful warship to be delivered next month
If there was a simpler way to explain this I would but I can't. I don't know what to put as a benchmark for a cruiser to compare it to P15B.
The Tico BTW was based on a Destroyer hull and had the RIM-67 SM-2ER when it had the Mk.26 twin-arm launchers. The first VLS Tico came into service in 86, P-15B isn't even launched yet.
How is anyone supposed to compare between destroyer and cruiser then? Or between any other ship for that matter. European frigates like Iver Huitfeldt and Bazan can be called destroyers as well because they undertake AAD roles, anti-submarine roles, and have sensors that are as advanced as a destroyers.
It's so much easier for you to say P15B is going to be a cruiser based on how it would be used by IN doctrine while a rebadged destroyer which has powerful sensors and huge armament can't be called a cruiser when it is already designated so by it's Navy.
Re-quoting your answers.
If there was a simpler way to explain this I would but I can't. I don't know what to put as a benchmark for a cruiser to compare it to P15B.
Tanks for admitting.
The Tico BTW was based on a Destroyer hull and had the RIM-67 SM-2ER when it had the Mk.26 twin-arm launchers. The first VLS Tico came into service in 86, P-15B isn't even launched yet.
Does it matter if P-15 B isn't launched yet? I though we are discussing based on what we know, would be a part of P-15 B. Surprises are left out.
How is anyone supposed to compare between destroyer and cruiser then? Or between any other ship for that matter. European frigates like Iver Huitfeldt and Bazan can be called destroyers as well because they undertake AAD roles, anti-submarine roles, and have sensors that are as advanced as a destroyers.
Why should any one compare between destroyers and cruisers for that matter? That's fan-boyish, compare them with respect to their response to a perceived situation. And not in absolute terms.
Exactly, now some European frigates are classified so, keeping in mind 'political sentiments' and most bizarre being 'destroyer' term is too 'aggressive'. ( can you believe it? )
It's so much easier for you to say P15B is going to be a cruiser based on how it would be used by IN doctrine while a rebadged destroyer which has powerful sensors and huge armament can't be called a cruiser when it is already designated so by it's Navy.
Who told you that cruiser tag for Tico is wrong. Who am I to say that? I simply pulled out the info to tell you that the distinction that you want to perceive to be present between destroyer and cruiser isn't distinct.
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As you have said, it isn't easy to define the difference. So, let's put out when the difference was large when small and when continuous, using history.
I will quote from Wiki only. If you want to dig deeper. You need to help yourself.
Let's start from the classical definition of each of the term
1.
Destroyer: In naval terminology, a destroyer is a fast and maneuverable yet long-endurance warship intended to escort larger vessels in a fleet, convoy or battle group and defend them against smaller, powerful, short-range attackers.
2.
Cruiser By the early 20th century, cruisers could be placed on a consistent scale of warship size, smaller than a battleship but larger than a destroyer. In 1922, the Washington Naval Treaty placed a formal limit on cruisers, which were defined as warships of up to 10,000 tons displacement carrying guns no larger than 8 inches in calibre. These limits shaped cruisers up until the end of World War II. The very large battlecruisers of the World War I era were now classified, along with battleships, as capital ships.
3.
Frigate In modern navies, frigates are used to protect other warships and merchant-marine ships, especially as anti-submarine warfare (ASW) combatants for amphibious expeditionary forces, underway replenishment groups, and merchant convoys. Ship classes dubbed "frigates" have also more closely resembled corvettes, destroyers, cruisers and even battleships. The rank "frigate captain" derives from the name of this type of ship.
4.
Capital ship The capital ships of a navy are its most important warships; they generally possess the heaviest firepower and armor and are traditionally much larger than other naval vessels. A capital ship is generally a leading or a primary ship in a naval fleet.
These are the classical definitions.
From the definition you can spot an important terminology '10,000' tonnes, Which many naval experts consider as the distinction between Destroyer and cruisers.
Let's see how that came into being.
The term light cruiser was given a definition by the London Naval Treaty of 1930. Light cruisers were defined as cruisers having guns of 6.1 inch (155 mm) or smaller, with heavy cruisers defined as cruisers having guns of up to 8 inch (203 mm). In both cases, the ships could not be greater than 10,000 tons.
This is the cutoff point from where naval expert say that cutoff is 10,000 tonnes.
And as evident the difference between the light cruiser and heavy cruiser/ battle cruiser is clear. ( The reason I asked you search for INS Delhi, which is a light cruiser)
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So, the difference between Destroyers and Frigates then and Now can can be defined through a constant which has not changed ie- Capital ship.
The Destroyer and frigate has now displaced battleship and cruisers to become the capital ships of the navy. With the same role that the Battleship and Cruisers played at that time.
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There are other definitions based on AAD also, but I am not going into that.
The Battle-ship and Cruisers were generalist ( though exception exists), with offence and defense with smaller destroyers and frigates were specialist.
With advancement of technology, It became possible to add secondary role to frigate and destroyers and gradually disp. of them too rose and today we find milti- mission and multirole frigates and destroyers thus, being smaller than cruisers and battleship but having the equivalent power.
To give a example modern main gun is sea water cooled which can fire, 120 rnds pm. Think that at ww-2, ships to attain that firepower had to employ 5 guns.
Think about point AD. Think about twin 23mm gun then and CIWS now. How much lighter and space saving.
Think about vertical replenishment, not available then.
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The above shows that the role of battleship and cruisers of the WW-2 era is taken over by Destroyers and frigate.
Now coming to 'modern' ( your definition) cruisers and destroyers.
Before going to that let's study about " the cruiser gap"
Prior to the introduction of the Ticonderogas, the US Navy used odd naming conventions that left its fleet seemingly without many cruisers, although a number of their ships were cruisers in all but name. From the 1950s to the 1970s, US Navy "cruisers" were large vessels equipped with heavy offensive missiles (including the Regulus nuclear cruise missile) for wide-ranging combat against land-based and sea-based targets. All save one—USS Long Beach (CGN-9)—were converted from World War II Oregon City-, Baltimore- and Cleveland-class cruisers.
"Frigates" under this scheme were almost as large as the cruisers and optimized for anti-aircraft warfare, although they were capable anti-surface warfare combatants as well. In the late 1960s, the US government perceived a "cruiser gap"—at the time, the US Navy possessed six ships designated as "cruisers", compared to 19 for the Soviet Union, even though the USN possessed at the time 21 "frigates" with equal or superior capabilities to the Soviet cruisers—because of this, in 1975 the Navy performed a massive redesignation of its forces:
CVA/CVAN (Attack Aircraft Carrier/Nuclear-powered Attack Aircraft Carrier) were redesignated CV/CVN (although USS Midway (CV-41) and USS Coral Sea (CV-43) never embarked anti-submarine squadrons).
DLG/DLGN (Frigates/Nuclear-powered Frigates) of the Leahy, Bainbridge, Belknap, Truxtun and California classes were redesignated CG/CGN (Guided Missile Cruiser/Nuclear-powered Guided Missile Cruiser).
Farragut-class guided missile frigates (DLG), being smaller and less capable than the others, were redesignated to DDGs (USS Coontz was the first ship of this class to be re-numbered; because of this the class is sometimes called the Coontz class);
DE/DEG (Ocean Escort/Guided Missile Ocean Escort) were redesignated to FF/FFG (Guided Missile Frigates), bringing the US "Frigate" designation into line with the rest of the world.
So, the designation of ships has a political and perceptional angle as well, as it has specification and capability angle. The Tico were given Cruiser because they would be the largest and most capable in USN. And so, cannot be taken as a standard. All Aegis and radar are the just justification in that end.
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Now, let's see another definition
Flotilla Leader
A flotilla leader was a warship suitable for commanding a flotilla of destroyers or other small warships, typically a small cruiser or a large destroyer (known as a destroyer leader). The flotilla leader provided space, equipment and staff for the flotilla commodore (who typically held the rank of captain), including a wireless room, senior engineering and gunnery officers, and administrative staff to support the officers. They were a feature of navies in the late 19th century and early 20th century. Originally, older light or scout cruisers were often used, but in the early 1900s, the rapidly increasing speed of new destroyer designs meant that such vessels could no longer keep pace with their charges. Accordingly, large destroyer designs were produced for use as leaders.
So, I suppose I have made myself clear.
P-15 B has barak-8 which you say is not as potential as S-300 system. But that's only in range. You are not including the new algorithm and redundancy and better detection with MF-Star radar. And all that at 1/6 of it's weight.
And you say AB-3 will have more missiles. But, my question is will we require more than 16 Nirbhay's in a ship. We aren't going to become a global policeman are we?
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Also, then you will question why not build a 10,000 tonnes ship? To it the answer is the endurance of the flotilla is the endurance of the smallest and weakest ship in it. So, progressively it will evolve. We have started making 3000 tonnes corvettes.
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So, P-15 B ( I am not going to tell you what shall be it's perceived disp.) can work alone, lead a flotilla, defend a flotilla, has enough firepower to engage other capital ships. ( cruiser and cruiser-killers). Provide escort to ACC.
Also, there will be some weight shaving by use of composites in the superstructure.
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So, finally, P-15 B as the official designation goes it will be a 'destroyer' but, which will be not far from the capability and role of a cruiser, in classical sense.
That's what I meant all through. ( and not in a fan boy sense compare with ABC)
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