Kolkata Class Destroyers Update

[arnabmit]

Re: Indian Navy most powerful warship to be delivered next month

Yes, but India will wait it till at least 2017 and fit in the ship after 2019.

You are mixing it up. 2017 is for MR-SAM, the Air Force version of Barak8

P15A will use LR-SAM, the naval version of Barak8, which is ready.

 

[mikhail]

Re: Indian Navy most powerful warship to be delivered next month

??



So, what do you want to say?

First of all the range of 3S90M orShtil-1 is not 28 km as quoted by you but it's original range is 32 Kms as suggested by the Russians themselves and it can be lauched through the VLS cells.

Defunct Humanity: Shtil-1 for Indian Navy, fresh memoirs

 

[ice berg]

Re: Indian Navy most powerful warship to be delivered next month

You are mixing it up. 2017 is for MR-SAM, the Air Force version of Barak8

P15A will use LR-SAM, the naval version of Barak8, which is ready.

Antony finally clears long-pending controversial deal for Israeli Barak missiles - The Times of India

The naval LR-SAM, approved in December 2005, is now slated for completion by December 2015. The MR-SAM project, sanctioned in February 2009, in turn, has a "probable date of completion" by August 2016, say sources.

another source:
India & Israel’s Barak-8 SAM Development Project(s)

Dec 17/13: Update. India's Ministry of Defense provides updates regarding a number of DRDO projects, including LR-SAM. The development program's original delivery target was May 2011, but the Probable Date of Completion is now December 2015: 4 1/2 years late, and well after it becomes fully operational in Israel. Sources: India MoD, "DRDO Projects".

 

[Ray]

Re: Indian Navy most powerful warship to be delivered next month

Anthony is a man of peace and so he has done India a favour by keeping it defenceless.

A good man actually.

A man of God!

i believe he was a Communist earlier.

 

[ladder]

Re: Indian Navy most powerful warship to be delivered next month

Antony finally clears long-pending controversial deal for Israeli Barak missiles - The Times of India

The naval LR-SAM, approved in December 2005, is now slated for completion by December 2015. The MR-SAM project, sanctioned in February 2009, in turn, has a "probable date of completion" by August 2016, say sources.

another source:
India & Israel's Barak-8 SAM Development Project(s)

Dec 17/13: Update. India's Ministry of Defense provides updates regarding a number of DRDO projects, including LR-SAM. The development program's original delivery target was May 2011, but the Probable Date of Completion is now December 2015: 4 1/2 years late, and well after it becomes fully operational in Israel. Sources: India MoD, "DRDO Projects".

Old news old boy.

Our MoD hasn't revised forward the date, while the Israeli have. ( May be due to the fact that we want more extensive testing after delivery so, operational date is not revised.)

August 7, 2013: Israel is installing its new Barak 8 anti-aircraft missile on its three 1,075 ton Saar 5 class corvettes. This should be done by the end of the year, which will mean the system will be ready for action over a year before its scheduled 2015 service date.

https://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htada/20130807.aspx

=================

And first delivery date is within this current year.

 

[ice berg]

Re: Indian Navy most powerful warship to be delivered next month

Old news old boy.

Our MoD hasn't revised forward the date, while the Israeli have. ( May be due to the fact that we want more extensive testing after delivery so, operational date is not revised.)


Good that you admit you got an old source while mine is more updated. Not to mention strategypage vs your own MOD. ROFL.

let me dumb it down for you further:

Dec 17/13: Update. India's Ministry of Defense provides updates regarding a number of DRDO projects, including LR-SAM. The development program's original delivery target was May 2011, but the Probable Date of Completion is now December 2015: 4 1/2 years late, and well after it becomes fully operational in Israel. Sources: India MoD, "DRDO Projects".

 

[ladder]

Re: Indian Navy most powerful warship to be delivered next month

Old news old boy.

Our MoD hasn't revised forward the date, while the Israeli have. ( May be due to the fact that we want more extensive testing after delivery so, operational date is not revised.)


Good that you admit you got an old source while mine is more updated. Not to mention strategypage vs your own MOD. ROFL.

let me dumb it down for you further:

Dec 17/13: Update. India's Ministry of Defense provides updates regarding a number of DRDO projects, including LR-SAM. The development program's original delivery target was May 2011, but the Probable Date of Completion is now December 2015: 4 1/2 years late, and well after it becomes fully operational in Israel. Sources: India MoD, "DRDO Projects".

I gave you the reason why MoD hasn't revised. Publication dates don't matter. MoD will always give safe date.

We know our MoD. ( It's not the one which releases grainy pictures for wet dreams of posters like you.)

Let me Chinese it down further.

The Barak-8, will be delivered this year. Period. Also the post you quoted was replied to a post which makes a claim of 2019

Yes, but India will wait it till at least 2017 and fit in the ship after 2019.

2015 isn't 2019. ( Maybe Chinese logic. Middle Kingdom mathematics?)

Barak-8 is ready only trial is left.

Original dates were early 2015 for Israel and late 2015 for India.

Which is Mid 2015 for India Now. It is the time when P-15 A Kolkata will complete the post commissioning trial. And will be ready for hot zone operation.

Don't expect our MoD to oscillate with the Israel.


===========================

And for a Chinese who has a fixation with dates, here is the info. Published on 17/12/13

Radar integration begins on Indian Navy Ship for LR-SAM tests

The new generation long-range surface-to-air missile (LR-SAM) being primarily developed for the Indian Navy ships is now heading for the trials on an Indian naval ship. The radars and the support equipment is being integrated on a ship said an official source, who refused to name the ship.

Unless you say, the gap is a year long

Link

http://frontierindia.net/radar-integration-begins-indian-navy-ship-lr-sam-tests

 

[hit&run]

Re: Indian Navy most powerful warship to be delivered next month

What is the doctrine of this ship, it is going to operate on.

 

[ladder]

Re: Indian Navy most powerful warship to be delivered next month

What is the doctrine of this ship, it is going to operate on.

I didn't get your question. If you could elaborate it further.

Do you mean 'motto' of the ship?

 

[hit&run]

Re: Indian Navy most powerful warship to be delivered next month

I didn't get your question. If you could elaborate it further.

Do you mean 'motto' of the ship?

My apologies for not making my point clear. When war ships are build they are build for specific purposes. Some ships are build to win wars with comprehensive capabilities like ACC. I was just curious about roll of this massive warship, though its weaponry is been mentioned here but I wanted to know where it will fit into our present fleet.

 

[ladder]

Re: Indian Navy most powerful warship to be delivered next month

My apologies for not making my point clear. When war ships are build they are build for specific purposes. Some ships are build to win wars with comprehensive capabilities like ACC. I was just curious about roll of this massive warship, though its weaponry is been mentioned here but I wanted to know where it will fit into our present fleet.

Not need for apologies Sir.

The question seems simple, but in reality it is not.

As because, Guided missile destroyers, shortly 'destroyers' as they are called, does have multi-mission and multi-role capability. It is classified as capital ship. Which encompasses a role of escorting and covering for a Aircraft carrier to leading a task force of a mix of other destroyer and frigates, while having the capacity of going out in open seas and operate alone for a considerable period of time.

The role that this ship cannot play, which a few others can play is 1. It doesn't have a long range land attack capability as USA destroyer has with Tomahawk. 2. It doesn't have BMD capacity, which other few destroyers have and have wide area coverage.

Now, coming to the armament of the current Ship

It has 16 Brahmos for Anti-Shipping operation.

LR Sam for Air Defense of itself and other ships in the flotilla.

Heavy torpedo, RBU-6000 rocket launchers and Chaff launchers for Anti Submarine operation and defense from Submarines.

So, it is a complete package.

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But, the difference between a multi- mission frigate and a destroyer is burly. Every capital ship today is needed to have capacity to sail in a flotilla as well as individually, so the assortment of weapons and sensor fitment which coupled with the desired working range and sea keeping ability, increases the tonnage. The Shivaliks are 6200 tonnes.


The example of Classical approach is seen with Kamorta class corvettes, which has higher tonnage than other corvettes, which is due to it's role of escorting a Aircraft carrier (which has long legs) as a Anti Submarine Ship . So, Kamorta also has has long legs. And also for that reason it doesn't have VLS for Anti-ship missile. Whereas a light frigate having the equivalent tonnage has them.

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So. INS Kolkata will be the most capable capital ship in Indian Navy in terms of sensor fitment and both offensive and defensive weapon package, to be able to operate and project force well beyond Indian shores and a vital component in transforming Indian Navy into a blue water Navy.

==================================================

But, the same answer can be provided in one line as the doctrine of INS Kolkata will be Anti Ship warfare.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Re: Indian Navy most powerful warship to be delivered next month

@ladder, nice post ..

 

[Saumyasupraik]

Re: Indian Navy most powerful warship to be delivered next month

First of all the range of 3S90M orShtil-1 is not 28 km as quoted by you but it's original range is 32 Kms as suggested by the Russians themselves and it can be lauched through the VLS cells.
Defunct Humanity: Shtil-1 for Indian Navy, fresh memoirs

Your source is a bit wrong. This missile is the 9M317ME it is a completely new missile designed to be launched from a VLS and has a lower weight, lesser diameter and smaller length than the 9M317 missile used on the P17 Shivalik and P1135.6 Talwar class. I guess Delhi also has the same missiles but I am not sure it maybe the 9M38M1 but seeing that IN has standardised most weapon systems on it's ships like the AK-630, Barak-1 and Brahmos and Kh-35 it is quite possible that the missiles are the 9M317 like Shivalik and Talwar.

The missile also has a lower range as compared to the 9M317 missile on the Shivalik and Talwar 32km V/S 45Km but ROF is more than the 3S90 Single-arm launched missiles as it is VLS launched (VLS system is called 3S90E1). The number of missiles guided to a target depends on the number of MR-90 Orekh illuminators on the ship, Shivalik, Talwar and Type 054A have 4 MR-90 Orekh illuminators so theoretically they can engage no more than 4 targets at a single time, Delhi, Sovremmeny and Type 052B have 6 Orekhs so they can't engage more than 6 targets. Both the 3S90E VLS launched and 3S90 single arm launched Shtils firing the 9M317ME and 9M317 missiles respectively are called Shtil-1.

I believe P2Prada can elaborate more on the SARH guidance used by these ships and if I am wrong correct me as to how many targets can be engaged by a single Orekh illuminator.

Here is a photo of the 9M317 missile.

As you can see this is quite different from the VLS launched missiles 9M317ME, Indian Navy never went for this offer as it wanted it's VLS launched AAD missiles to have ARH seekers to put the VLS to it's maximum potential.

Here's also a photo of different Shtil missile sizes compared to each other.

I hope this clears stuff up.

 

[Neil]

Re: Indian Navy most powerful warship to be delivered next month

But, the same answer can be provided in one line as the doctrine of INS Kolkata will be Anti Ship warfare.

whoa... and i always mistook it for air defence aegis kinda warship.

 

[arnabmit]

Re: Indian Navy most powerful warship to be delivered next month

With 70+km LR-SAM package it has an air defence role. However, only against AShM, Aircraft & CMs, not against BMs.

Maybe we don't need BMD on ships because US' enemies are across water border but India's enemies are across land border?

Anyway, AAD+PDV installation on ships is feasible, so is the swordfish radar.

Maybe if at any time in the future we build a 15,000-20,000 ton Cruiser/Arsenal ship to lead assault task forces in distant seas, they will have BMD+SAM+CIWS aerial defence package.

whoa... and i always mistook it for air defence aegis kinda warship.

 

[ladder]

Re: Indian Navy most powerful warship to be delivered next month

With 70+km LR-SAM package it has an air defence role. However, only against AShM, Aircraft & CMs, not against BMs.

Maybe we don't need BMD on ships because US' enemies are across water border but India's enemies are across land border?

Anyway, AAD+PDV installation on ships is feasible, so is the swordfish radar.

Maybe if at any time in the future we build a 15,000-20,000 ton Cruiser/Arsenal ship to lead assault task forces in distant seas, they will have BMD+SAM+CIWS aerial defence package.

Actually Arnabda the missile developed under the BMD phase-2 program in collaboration with Israel, has more potential to be put on warship than AAD+ PDV combo.

 

[laughingbuddha]

Actually Arnabda the missile developed under the BMD phase-2 program in collaboration with Israel, has more potential to be put on warship than AAD+ PDV combo.

So with the BMD phase-2 and Nirbhay programmes can we expect a cruiser in the next decade?

 

[ladder]

Re: Indian Navy most powerful warship to be delivered next month

So with the BMD phase-2 and Nirbhay programmes can we expect a cruiser in the next decade?

Nirbhay missile will be integrated in P-15 B destroyers. Also tonnage wise at 8000 tonnes plus, p-15 B are no less than cruisers. But BMD on Indian ships is still a speculation, no official word on it.

 

[Saumyasupraik]

Re: Indian Navy most powerful warship to be delivered next month

Nirbhay missile will be integrated in P-15 B destroyers. Also tonnage wise at 8000 tonnes plus, p-15 B are no less than cruisers. But BMD on Indian ships is still a speculation, no official word on it.

Tonnage wise it's still a destroyer not a cruiser. Modern day cruisers like the Tico and Slava are over 10,000 tonnes in displacement and are more than 30 year old designs, Sejong the Great which is a destroyer has a displacement of 11,000 tonnes. Arleigh Burke Flight IIIs which will replace the Ticos in the guided missile cruiser role will be 11,000 to 12,000 tonnes displacement.

 

[ladder]

Re: Indian Navy most powerful warship to be delivered next month

Tonnage wise it's still a destroyer not a cruiser. Modern day cruisers like the Tico and Slava are over 10,000 tonnes in displacement and are more than 30 year old designs, Sejong the Great which is a destroyer has a displacement of 11,000 tonnes. Arleigh Burke Flight IIIs which will replace the Ticos in the guided missile cruiser role will be 11,000 to 12,000 tonnes displacement.

You yourself have answered yourself.

Tell me disp. wise where a modern destroyer ends and a cruiser begins?

Zumwalt is defined as a Destroyer and has a larger disp. and firepower than Tico cruisers.

Sejong which is a enlarged Arleigh Burke has equivalent tonnage to Tico cruisers.

Tell me a which country which is building a futuristic cruiser.

Everyone is building a destroyer with higher disp. and firepower.

And I even can say with your logic that none of them approach the disp. 'peter the great' battle cruiser.


Now,

When we make the statement ' today's destroyers are approaching cruisers in disp.' What does it mean? care to explain?

It always refers to the generic tonnage associated with the perception of those ships when terms became prevalent and used widely that is around WW-2 and little thereafter. Which forms a sort of baseline.

Now, care to tell me what was the disp. and dimension of those? Can you tell me the the disp. of the last cruiser Indian Navy operated?