Kolkata Class Destroyers Update

[Saumyasupraik]

Re: Indian Navy most powerful warship to be delivered next month

Zumwalt was primarily designed for NGFS roles and it's only AAD weapon is the ESSM, in this role though it does have much firepower than the Tico. The CGX which was supposed to replace the Tico and was based on the Zumwalt hull was supposed to be 14,000 tonnes displacement ship along with one variant having 23,000 tonne displacement, but it was cancelled because of budget cuts. The AB Flight III will be taking it's place as the Tico replacement and has a smaller displacement. My whole point here is that as newer generation of surface combatants appear their displacement is increasing incrementally.

P15B with 8,000 tonne displacement cannot be called a cruiser as it does not perform roles such as BMD and ER-AAD roles performed by the Ticos and in the future Flight III ABs. There are no plans in the future to integrate Ashwin AAD interceptor on the P15B and Barak-8ER only has a 120Km range while the SM-2ER which will be replaced by the SM-6 in the future has a range of around 110-200nm.

 

[ladder]

Re: Indian Navy most powerful warship to be delivered next month

Zumwalt was primarily designed for NGFS roles and it's only AAD weapon is the ESSM, in this role though it does have much firepower than the Tico. The CGX which was supposed to replace the Tico and was based on the Zumwalt hull was supposed to be 14,000 tonnes displacement ship along with one variant having 23,000 tonne displacement, but it was cancelled because of budget cuts. The AB Flight III will be taking it's place as the Tico replacement and has a smaller displacement. My whole point here is that as newer generation of surface combatants appear their displacement is increasing incrementally.

P15B with 8,000 tonne displacement cannot be called a cruiser as it does not perform roles such as BMD and ER-AAD roles performed by the Ticos and in the future Flight III ABs. There are no plans in the future to integrate Ashwin AAD interceptor on the P15B and Barak-8ER only has a 120Km range while the SM-2ER which will be replaced by the SM-6 in the future has a range of around 110-200nm.

What makes you think having BMD capability makes a ship Cruiser? And some And I never asked the role of Zumwalt. I merely stated Zumwalt is designated as a Destroyer.

Maybe we don't need BMD on ships because US' enemies are across water border but India's enemies are across land border?

@arnabmit gave a valid reason why we may never see BMD capability on Indian Naval ships.

And even if P-15 B are 7000 tonnes, it doesn't take away from the reason for which I called them 'no less than' Cruiser.

Reproduced for you

Nirbhay missile will be integrated in P-15 B destroyers. Also tonnage wise at 8000 tonnes plus, p-15 B are no less than cruisers. But BMD on Indian ships is still a speculation, no official word on it.

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I am not the guy who accepts the oversimplification of classification of Naval ships based on disp.

Example being Cruiser Above 10,000 tonnes.

Destroyers 5-10000 tonnes

Frigates 2-5000 tonnes

Corvettes 500-2000 tonnes.

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No, absolutely not.

Those who state it forget a term 'light Cruisers' which was places in between Destroyers and Cruisers.

========================

So, you may have a fixation with the terminology that cruisers 'Must' have a disp, of more than 10,000 tnnes or have BMD capability.

But, that your own. It will remain your own. Can't become a universal phenomena, can it?

 

[TrueSpirit1]

Re: Indian Navy most powerful warship to be delivered next month

Can you tell me the the disp. of the last cruiser Indian Navy operated?

Gorshkov was supposed to be a cruiser (aviation cruiser, to be specific) in Soviet Navy.

 

[Saumyasupraik]

Re: Indian Navy most powerful warship to be delivered next month

What makes you think having BMD capability makes a ship Cruiser? And some And I never asked the role of Zumwalt. I merely stated Zumwalt is designated as a Destroyer.


@arnabmit gave a valid reason why we may never see BMD capability on Indian Naval ships.

And even if P-15 B are 7000 tonnes, it doesn't take away from the reason for which I called them 'no less than' Cruiser.

Reproduced for you



==================================

I am not the guy who accepts the oversimplification of classification of Naval ships based on disp.

Example being Cruiser Above 10,000 tonnes.

Destroyers 5-10000 tonnes

Frigates 2-5000 tonnes

Corvettes 500-2000 tonnes.

======================================

No, absolutely not.

Those who state it forget a term 'light Cruisers' which was places in between Destroyers and Cruisers.

========================

So, you may have a fixation with the terminology that cruisers 'Must' have a disp, of more than 10,000 tnnes or have BMD capability.

But, that your own. It will remain your own. Can't become a universal phenomena, can it?

Which was the last modern ship you came across having a designation of a light cruiser?

Going by your logic Type 052D itself is now a cruiser or no less than a cruiser?

P-15B with Barak-8ER is still outmatched in range by SM-2ER Block IV and in the future SM-6 negating the SM-3s BMD capabilities that american destroyers and cruisers boast. The VLS cell numbers are 64 cells for Barak-8 and 16 cells for Brahmos for P15A and in the P15B there would be same number Barak-8ER cells but I guess 16+16 UVLM cells for Nirbhay and Brahmos or just 16 cells for both of them, even if we take the former the total cells come out to be 96 same as Burke IIA, Tico and Burke III have 122 and 128 cells respectively a full 1/3rd more than the P-15B if it does get the addition of another 16 UVLM cells.

Tico and Burke III have heavier displacement, have bigger dimensions, have much more capability and higher number of armament carried.

To be frank there aren't even any official figures for the P-15B displacement as of yet.

 

[ladder]

Re: Indian Navy most powerful warship to be delivered next month

Gorshkov was supposed to be a cruiser (aviation cruiser, to be specific) in Soviet Navy.

And Japan operates a helicopter carrier destroyer.

And do you know why they were branded as a cruiser? Should read it, interesting trivia.

===============

But, it's not the answer I am looking for.

 

[Saumyasupraik]

Re: Indian Navy most powerful warship to be delivered next month

Can you tell me the the disp. of the last cruiser Indian Navy operated?

10,000+ tonnes full load for INS Mysore. Compare that era destroyers by displacement, size and armament.

 

[ladder]

Re: Indian Navy most powerful warship to be delivered next month

Which was the last modern ship you came across having a designation of a light cruiser?

Going by your logic Type 052D itself is now a cruiser or no less than a cruiser?

P-15B with Barak-8ER is still outmatched in range by SM-2ER Block IV and in the future SM-6 negating the SM-3s BMD capabilities that american destroyers and cruisers boast. The VLS cell numbers are 64 cells for Barak-8 and 16 cells for Brahmos for P15A and in the P15B there would be same number Barak-8ER cells but I guess 16+16 UVLM cells for Nirbhay and Brahmos or just 16 cells for both of them, even if we take the former the total cells come out to be 96 same as Burke IIA, Tico and Burke III have 122 and 128 cells respectively a full 1/3rd more than the P-15B if it does get the addition of another 16 UVLM cells.

Tico and Burke III have heavier displacement, have bigger dimensions, have much more capability and higher number of armament carried.

To be frank there aren't even any official figures for the P-15B displacement as of yet.

Define modern ship? From which year of lord did modern era starts?

Did I say anything about type 052 A,B,C,D? you are free to assume.

From when did BMD become the guiding feature for a ship classification? care to explain?

Shivalik is 6200 tonnes and designated as frigate so, going by your logic Talwar with 4000 tonne disp. can't be called a frigate?

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So, you too seem to have a fixation for ' 10,000' tonnes.


So, tell me, what are your perceived specifications of a destroyer or a cruiser?

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So, for you because as Tico, is designated as cruiser, it forms the global standard or global minimum from which you can brand a ship cruiser or destroyer by comparing with it?

Do, you know what that behavior is called?

 

[ladder]

Re: Indian Navy most powerful warship to be delivered next month

10,000+ tonnes full load for INS Mysore. Compare that era destroyers by displacement, size and armament.

Thanks,

Now search about INS Delhi ( not D-61) pls and HMS Delhi.

==========================

Exactly, that's what I want you to do.

 

[Razor]

Re: Indian Navy most powerful warship to be delivered next month

And do you know why they were branded as a cruiser? Should read it, interesting trivia.

Montreux Convention Regarding the Regime of the Straits - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

By contrast, Black Sea powers such as the USSR were able to transit aircraft carrying cruisers through the straits under other terms of the convention. As with non-Black Seas powers, the Montreux convention does not explicitly forbid a Black Sea power from transiting aircraft carriers through the straits, and the tonnage limits in Article 14 also apply to Black Sea powers as well as non-Black Sea powers. However, under Article 11, Black Sea states are permitted to transit capital ships of any tonnage through the straits. Annex II specifically excludes aircraft carriers from the definition of capital ships, but limits the definition of carriers to ships that are designed primarily for carrying and operating aircraft at sea and specifically excludes other ships that merely are able to operate aircraft.[12]

The result of this is that by designing its aircraft carrying ships such as the Kiev and the Admiral Kuznetsov to have roles other than aircraft operation and by designating those ships as "aircraft carrying cruisers" rather than "aircraft carriers" the Soviet Union was able to transit its aircraft carrying ships through the straits in compliance with the convention, while at the same time the Convention denied access to NATO aircraft carriers, which are not covered by the exemption in Article 11.

 

[Saumyasupraik]

Re: Indian Navy most powerful warship to be delivered next month

Define modern ship? From which year of lord did modern era starts?

In service or being constructed.

Did I say anything about type 052 A,B,C,D? you are free to assume.

Since you want to say P-15B with LACM Nirbhay has cruiser/near cruiser capabilities same can be said for the Type 052D.

From when did BMD become the guiding feature for a ship classification? care to explain?

Never did I say BMD capability was the only guiding feature for the classification of a ship. I've repeatedly over-emphasized the ER-AAD role of a cruiser like the Tico with SM-2ER and SM-6 which the P-15Bs Barak-8ER cannot match.

Shivalik is 6200 tonnes and designated as frigate so, going by your logic Talwar with 4000 tonne disp. can't be called a frigate?

You're twisting words here.

So, tell me, what are your perceived specifications of a destroyer or a cruiser?

Ships with more armament, much stronger sensors, bigger displacement and dimensions and more capabilities than a destroyer.

So, for you because as Tico, is designated as cruiser, it forms the global standard or global minimum from which you can brand a ship cruiser or destroyer by comparing with it?

No.

 

[Saumyasupraik]

Re: Indian Navy most powerful warship to be delivered next month

Thanks,

Now search about INS Delhi ( not D-61) pls and HMS Delhi.

==========================

Exactly, that's what I want you to do.

INS Delhi
Laid down: 11 June 1931
Launched: 1 September 1932
Commissioned: 10 October 1933 (HMS Achilles)

HMS Delhi
Laid down: 29 October 1917
Launched: 23 August 1918
Commissioned: June 1919

14 years of difference between these ships, during that time ships were getting outdated in pretty fast as Naval technology was advancing at a breakneck speed.

 

[ladder]

Re: Indian Navy most powerful warship to be delivered next month

In service or being constructed.


Since you want to say P-15B with LACM Nirbhay has cruiser/near cruiser capabilities same can be said for the Type 052D.


Never did I say BMD capability was the only guiding feature for the classification of a ship. I've repeatedly over-emphasized the ER-AAD role of a cruiser like the Tico with SM-2ER and SM-6 which the P-15Bs Barak-8ER cannot match.


You're twisting words here.


Ships with more armament, much stronger sensors, bigger displacement and dimensions and more capabilities than a destroyer.


No.

Replying by re-quoting you

In service or being constructed.

BAP Almirante Grau (CLM-81) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is still in service with Peru. Is it modern?

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Since you want to say P-15B with LACM Nirbhay has cruiser/near cruiser capabilities same can be said for the Type 052D.

That is what you perceive. Not my fault.

I mentioned Nirbhay as it was his specific query along with BMD.

=============================================================================

Never did I say BMD capability was the only guiding feature for the classification of a ship. I've repeatedly over-emphasized the ER-AAD role of a cruiser like the Tico with SM-2ER and SM-6 which the P-15Bs Barak-8ER cannot match.

So, it's not BMD ( but, you mentioned it, anyways)

ER-AAD. Define ER for AAD? At what ranges, slant and vertical, do you use the term ER-AAD.

And, from when did the ER-AAD become the guiding principle of a cruiser?

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You're twisting words here.

No, just extending your logic to frigates.

======================================================================

Ships with more armament, much stronger sensors, bigger displacement and dimensions and more capabilities than a destroyer.

Then define the maximum capacity for a destroyer?

more armament- give specification?

much stronger sensors- stronger than what and whom?

bigger displacement and dimensions- then what and whom ?

more capabilities than a destroyer. than what and whom?

=============================================================

Now, lets, compare your criteria with Rajput class destroyers.

P-15 B vs Rajput class destroyers.

More armament 'yes'

much stronger sensors 'yes'

Bigger disp. and dim. 'yes'

More capability 'yes'

So, unless you say Rajputs should not be and are not destroyers, P-15 B, even P-15A are 'OK' and get a pass mark. Is that what you meant?

===================

No

If the answer is no, your logic is at fault.

 

[Saumyasupraik]

Re: Indian Navy most powerful warship to be delivered next month

I would just ask you one simple question as to why P-15B is nearer to a cruiser?

 

[ladder]

Re: Indian Navy most powerful warship to be delivered next month

INS Delhi
Laid down: 11 June 1931
Launched: 1 September 1932
Commissioned: 10 October 1933 (HMS Achilles)

HMS Delhi
Laid down: 29 October 1917
Launched: 23 August 1918
Commissioned: June 1919

14 years of difference between these ships, during that time ships were getting outdated in pretty fast as Naval technology was advancing at a breakneck speed.

And now it has slowed down, right? So, if terminology changed then, why are you sticking to Tico which are 30 yrs old as being the standard.

=====================

Still it's not for the reason I asked you to look for them, but anyways will clarify later.

 

[ladder]

Re: Indian Navy most powerful warship to be delivered next month

I would just ask you one simple question as to why P-15B is nearer to a cruiser?

That should have been the first question, you should have asked. But, you didn't answer me on the Rajput vs P-15A/B analogy, I think you should accept it, as it meets all your requirement.

=================

Tico cruisers were/ were to be first designated as destroyers but later re-branded as cruisers why? care to explain?

Let me make things simpler

Wiki quotes

The Ticonderoga-class of guided-missile cruisers is a class of warships in the United States Navy, first ordered and authorized in the 1978 fiscal year. The class uses phased-array radar and was originally planned as a class of destroyers. However, the increased combat capability offered by the Aegis combat system and the AN/SPY-1 radar system was used to justify the change of the classification from DDG (guided missile destroyer) to CG (guided-missile cruiser) shortly before the keels were laid down for the Ticonderoga and the Yorktown.

Aegis was offered for p-17A frigates. So if Aegis is selected in p-17 A and with high power Elta AESA radar. Then does it become a cruiser?

With dimension 149.5 mts and 6700 tonnes disp.?

Please answer?

 

[Saumyasupraik]

Re: Indian Navy most powerful warship to be delivered next month

That should have been the first question, you should have asked. But, you didn't answer me on the Rajput vs P-15A/B analogy, I think you should accept it, as it meets all your requirement.

=================

Tico cruisers were/ were to be first designated as destroyers but later re-branded as cruisers why? care to explain?

Let me make things simpler

Wiki quotes




Aegis was offered for p-17A frigates. So if Aegis is selected in p-17 A and with high power Elta AESA radar. Then does it become a cruiser?

With dimension 149.5 mts and 6700 tonnes disp.?

Please answer?

No it doesn't. Neither does a ship with Aegis mean it's a cruiser, F100 Bazan and Nansen would be cruisers as well if you go by this logic.

I wanted you to do a comparison of AB & Tico and of the Sovremmeny & Slava to prove my point. The cruisers in both the USN and VMF are much heavier armed than their corresponding era destroyers, they also have much more powerful sensors. Comparing P15A and Rajput is moot as they are both designated destroyers by the IN and have 30 years of technological difference along with the fact that Rajput is based on a much older hull.

You've asked me and I've answered every time to the best of my ability and time. Now could you tell me as to why P15B is nearer to a cruiser?

 

[ladder]

Re: Indian Navy most powerful warship to be delivered next month

No it doesn't. Neither does a ship with Aegis mean it's a cruiser, F100 Bazan and Nansen would be cruisers as well if you go by this logic.

I wanted you to do a comparison of AB & Tico and of the Sovremmeny & Slava to prove my point. The cruisers in both the USN and VMF are much heavier armed than their corresponding era destroyers, they also have much more powerful sensors. Comparing P15A and Rajput is moot as they are both designated destroyers by the IN and have 30 years of difference.

You've asked me and I've answered every time to the best of my ability and time. Now could you tell me as to why P15B is nearer to a cruiser?

Do you consider what I quoted is correct or not?

If yes, the a ship which was to be designated as destroyer was re-branded to cruiser following addition of aegis and a powerful radar. So, conversely without the two systems the ship would have retained destroyer status.

And so it is the differential between a destroyer and a cruiser.

Do you agree or not?

===========================================

So, as you pointed out F100 Bazan and Nansen aren't cruisers, why they are not?

==============================================

I wanted you to do a comparison of AB & Tico and of the Sovremmeny & Slava to prove my point.

You will not get any thing by comparing the specifications, you will be moving in circles.

There is more to it, which is there in the doctrine, it's from where I drew the analogy, of P-15B being no less than a cruiser.

===================================================

Comparing P15A and Rajput is moot as they are both designated destroyers by the IN and have 30 years of difference.

Unless you say Rajput is not a destroyer, P-15 B fulfills all your requirements as specified by you in your previous posts to be a cruiser as an increment of a destroyer as what you wanted.

By, the way Rajput by 'your definition' is modern as it is in service.

==========================

30 years of difference.

Tico and P-15 B has 27 years between them.

==========================================

You've asked me and I've answered every time to the best of my ability and time. Now could you tell me as to why P15B is nearer to a cruiser?

You have answered, but not satisfactorily, what makes a ship a cruiser? and how to differentiate with a destroyer?

 

[arnabmit]

Re: Indian Navy most powerful warship to be delivered next month

I thought the Israel collaboration was only for the C4I/CIC section, not for the interceptor itself? Anyway, if Interceptor collaboration is also done, then we would benefit from Arrow3 tech.

Actually Arnabda the missile developed under the BMD phase-2 program in collaboration with Israel, has more potential to be put on warship than AAD+ PDV combo.

 

[arnabmit]

Re: Indian Navy most powerful warship to be delivered next month

Depends entirely on Navy vision. So far it seems IN prefers multiple smaller ships than a single large ship, kind of a swarm doctrine.

So with the BMD phase-2 and Nirbhay programmes can we expect a cruiser in the next decade?

 

[arnabmit]

Re: Indian Navy most powerful warship to be delivered next month

@arnabmit gave a valid reason why we may never see BMD capability on Indian Naval ships.

And even if P-15 B are 7000 tonnes, it doesn't take away from the reason for which I called them 'no less than' Cruiser.

Reproduced for you

I already gave my personal humble opinion.

If USA is attacked by BMs, the BMs will fly over the Sea border of USA. Hence USA needs Sea based BMD.

If India is attacked by BMs, the BMs will fly over the Land border of India. Hence India needs Land based BMD. There are no Indian enemy who are across India's sea border.

It is a folly to apply the WWII/Cold War definition of Destroyers/Cruisers in today's scenario. They needs to be redefined.

IMHO in today's world, the 20,000 ton displacement ships (with +/-5,000 ton margin) which also doubles up as arsenal ships with significant ASh and Land Attack roles, and AD/BMD roles, can be called a cruiser. In simple terms, a ship which can lead an attack flotilla and defend the entire flotilla.