Know Your 'Rafale'

[weg]

USAF cancels AMRAAM replacement

Looks like India definitely made the right choice going European.

 

[weg]

France's Dassault Rafale fighter won India's $10 billion-plus medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) contest for 126 combat jets because its direct acquisition and life-cycle costs were 22 to 25 percent lower than those of the Eurofighter Typhoon. This verdict came from "a top [Indian] defense ministry source" quoted by The Times of India newspaper in Delhi last Friday. AIN believes that the report is credible. Negotiations on the contract should be completed by October, the source added.

This is what I have difficulty understanding. Germany has the most efficient industry in Europe, they have destroyed the the Euro by holding down wages and increasing productivity over a decade. The UK has devalued its currency by 25% - together that covers 65% of production cost.

France has high wages and low working hours, so how can they have a cost 25% below the Eurofighter when they make in lower volume? Something isn't right.

 

[p2prada]

@p2p

How is depth of production of the 108 Rafale that will be manufactured in India?
What will be shipped from France, what will be made in India?
Will HAL just get the major parts to assemble and more or less take a big part of work off the hands of Dassault or are even such important parts planned to be made in India. I guess that at least the M88 or electronic parts (for ex.) will be shipped from France...

In other words: is it just assembling or even more?

From what I know HAL will manufacture at least 85% of the airframe. The rest 15% will come from local industries and perhaps from France.

HAL will assemble 100% of the airframe. This is in the last phase. The production run will have multiple phases. The first will involve the 18 units from France in fly away condition. The following phase will be assembly from SKDs, followed by assembly from CKDs. The last phase will be indigenous manufacture from raw materials, also called raw materials phase. At least this is how the MKI is, except that the MKI production is 100% as compared to 85% in MRCA. The M88 will have to be manufactured in India, from bottom to top. Electronics may come in from France as some of it is critical.

Weapons and EW pods will come from France and other countries like Israel.

Spares will most probably be made in India and shipped to France for the ALA. We are doing the same for Russia and Su-30 export countries. It is cheaper for all. I think Armand mentioned something about spares and other consumables.

 

[pankaj nema]

Oh Gawd, please don't tell me we have to integrate the crappy Kh-31 onto our beautiful Rafale.

Man you are really funny

But what is the use of having open source architecture if we cannot economise on the weapons package

I believe we will even demand that you integrate the Russian R 77 BVRAAM and our own Indian
weapons like Sudarshan LGB and Astra BVRAAM

 

[methos]

This is what I have difficulty understanding. Germany has the most efficient industry in Europe, they have destroyed the the Euro by holding down wages and increasing productivity over a decade

lol... wtf?

 

[vanadium]

Regarding Switzerland:

Armee-Spitze hält geschlossen an Gripen-Entscheid fest
(Heads of armed forces keep Gripen decision tightly)

Excerpt:


In English:
The report was made in 2008 with the Gripen C/D. But currently the Gripen E/F is discussed. How the further developments affect the aircraft can be calculated.
Acknowledgements from Sweden about the steps of development made in E/F showed that the expectations were even surpassed, said chief of air force Markus Gygax.

THE SWISS SAGA CONTINUES...WHAT A MESS!!! WHAT A SHAME!!!

Switzerland open to offers on Gripen jet deal
Reuters, Switzerland
Tue Feb 14, 2012 10:23am EST
* Defence minister says Gripen "satifactory"
* No concrete rival offers to Gripen so far
Feb 14 (Reuters) - Switzerland would consider alternatives to the 22 Gripen jets it has agreed to buy from Saab to replace older warplanes, its defence minister said on Tuesday.
Flanked by his military chiefs of staff, Ueli Maurer told a news conference the government would be ready to look at any serious rival bids.
Maurer has come under pressure to justify the choice of plane after a Swiss newspaper published extracts of two secret test reports showing the Gripen fared worse than originally thought in tests against rivals.
Test reports published by the SonntagsZeitung suggested the Gripen did not "meet minimum expected capabilities" to carry out air policing missions.
Maurer on Tuesday described the Gripen as "satisfactory" according to a grading-scale used throughout the whole evaluation process.
Switzerland has wrangled for three years over how to replace its aged Northrop F-5E/F Tiger fighters, purchased in 1976 and 1981. In November the government opted to buy 22 JAS-39 Gripens for a price tag of 3.1 billion Swiss francs ($3.4 bln).
Maurer said at the time that Saab's offer was considerably cheaper than rivals the Rafale built by France's Dassault Aviation and EADS's Anglo-German-Italian Eurofighter Typhoon.
"The cabinet chose the Gripen because it fulfilled the technical requirements...and was the most cost-efficient plane and the only plane that could be financed under the available budget," Maurer said on Tuesday.
Even aside from wrangling over the supplier, the purchase of fighter jets is contentious as the government will have to cut back on education and agricultural spending to fund the order.
According to recent newspaper reports, Dassault put forward a counter offer to supply Switzerland with 18 Rafale jets for 2.7 billion Swiss francs instead of an original demand of 4 billion francs for 22 jets.
Maurer said on Tuesday the government had not received any formal counter offers. "We've asked the French to give us a really concrete offer," he said. "If we really do get a lower offer, we'd be able to look at it."

 

[p2prada]

The performance of R-27 over Eritrea saw a dozen shots and zero kills. It was ripple fired and cannot even hit the side of a barn. This was against MiGs with no ECM. Of course this report would not know this because it was pre-Eritrean war. It did not include R-77 as Su-27 did not carry it.

Joke is on you...

Yes Yes. When it comes to Western weapons, only the best works and only when fired from Captive market air forces like France or US. When it comes to Russian weapons we can conclude their capability by looking at wars in Sub-Saharan Africa.

Come to think of it, the first time the Americans saw a very well maintained, quality Mig-29 over the last 20 years was in 2004 in India. Before that they never knew the Mig-29 had something called quality standards.

BVR performance 2 decades ago gave crappy pk. BVR performance today is much higher. The R-27 has new seekers now.

There hasn't been a failed intercept by MICA out of 50 tests. It would be in the 90+ percentile.

All against target drones which are non maneuverable. Both R-27 and R-77 have a 95% pk against such a target and even higher when ripple fired. R-27 is a bigger missile and has an insane range.

I don't know how vaunted the Mica is in France. But in India, especially IAF, it is considered an inferior product compared to the R-77. Even the Derby is better than Mica. We have all the current versions of the R-27 except, perhaps, for the TE version with a much higher range. We have active, semi active and IR versions.

Let's just say if IAF was looking at replacing MKI's primary BVR missile, Mica won't even make the first round.

Btw, some general info. Currently a 500m-140Km Astra is being developed for the MKI. A 500m-80Km Astra is being developed for LCA and other small fighters.

17 AIM-120 AMRAAM fired, 10 hits => success rate above 50%
But: Only six where fired BVR, meaning that AMRAAM is very likely having a success rate below 50 % in BVR use.
According to Dr. John Stillion AIM-120 AMRAAM will have an success rate of about 50% against an unalerted SU-35BM without defensive capabilities.

Do you have the success rate for the 6 fired in BVR?

 

[Godless-Kafir]

USAF cancels AMRAAM replacement

Looks like India definitely made the right choice going European.

Pure experience. We have been under sanctions from US ever since the 1972 tests and later the 1999 one. While all the while US supported and funded Pakistan against the world largest democracy india. How much more hypocritical can they get when they talk of democracy spreading. So we learn to stay of US radar on weapons but expect for crucial stuff. Even then we bough 6 C-130j for 1.2billion and 10 boeing c-17s for 5.5billion Just shows relation and trust are improving also.

 

[Cola]

Let me school you on Suisse government bodies. The Federal Council is the executive branch which includes the Ministry of Defence. The National Council is the Parliament and the power of the purse. Of course the DefMin will back his loser horse to save his ass. He would look more of a smuck than he already does.

Ah, mais monsieur Danton..."Parliament has called on Maurer to immediately clarify the situation...The Federal Council is now reviewing the decision, with the lower house of parliament loudly criticizing the way the choice was handled. The upper house's security commission announced Monday 13 February that it will wait until its turn comes to review the decision, after the Federal Council makes its recommendation, before it becomes in the debate. But, it underscored firmly, it expects to be provided with all information available, including the minutes of lower house committee debates, in order to determine if the choice was made fairly and honestly."
Again, who told you Gripen is out?

Analysts do not equate to a FAB evaluation.

FAB's recommendation for Gripen is a matter of public record.
Even Lula didn't try to dispute that.
Don't make me laugh.

The conclusion was drawn by SAF

Unfortunately.

they know what they need better than bribed politicians.

That may be true, but the jets are bought for protection of country (Switzerland), not their private aero-club and summerhouses on Azure coast..

There hasn't been a failed intercept by MICA out of 50 tests. It would be in the 90+ percentile.

Cool, but I always thought missile Pk's been calculated in actual war...oh, silly me.

 

[pankaj nema]

USAF cancels AMRAAM replacement

Looks like India definitely made the right choice going European.

America has a huge lead in avionics over others

This decision also means that Americans have FULL faith in their avionics ie APG AESAradars , EW suites , their AWACS planes and J STAR reconaissance planes and their F 18 Growlers

Americans believe in complete domination of the electronic domain before they send in their fighters
and bombers for a war

Americans will continue to dominate the battle space electronically so they dont need new generation missiles

Other countries have a long way to go before catching up with The Americans in the avionics domain

 

[nitesh]

India Chose Rafale On Cost But Britain Demands Second Chance for Eurofighter | Aviation International News

from the link:

The 18 aircraft to be supplied in flyaway condition comprise 12 single- and six twin-seaters. They should be delivered within 48 months of the contract taking effect, with the complete weapons package. Of note, the MMRCA weapons and stores specification includes anti-radiation and anti-ship missiles, a reconnaissance pod and a buddy refueling pod.

The Indian production will comprise 74 single- and 34 twin-seaters. Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) has been designated as the lead production agency for the airframe and engine, and as system integrator. The first deliveries are due four years after contract signing, in a three-phase transfer of production. HAL is expected to produce six aircraft in that first year, 10 in the second and the total of 108 by the seventh year of local production.

So total number of single seat planes are 74+12= 86
dual seat planes: 6+34=40

approximate 33% as dual seat, why IAF is looking for so many dual seat options? Also what is the difference between single and dual seat bird, what exactly it compromises for the second seat.

 

[p2prada]

So total number of single seat planes are 74+12= 86
dual seat planes: 6+34=40

approximate 33% as dual seat, why IAF is looking for so many dual seat options?

A WSO to decrease operations load on the pilot. It was the 2 seater Mirage-2000s which dropped LGBs in Kargil.

Also what is the difference between single and dual seat bird, what exactly it compromises for the second seat.

Differences: 2 pilots, one less fuel tank. So, decreased range. Not a big problem since CFTs and Drop tanks take care of range issues.

Like I said, the MRCA is meant for replacing the strike fleet. The Rafale with it's 5 wet points provides greater capability in strike as compared to EF.

 

[Godless-Kafir]

Tejas is the replacement for small multirol fighter Mig-21 and Rafael is the replacement for the ground attack fleet which is the Mig-23 and Mig-27. Which still leaves room for 300 fighter aircraft may be filled by AMCA or PAK-FA?

 

[Armand2REP]

THE SWISS SAGA CONTINUES...WHAT A MESS!!! WHAT A SHAME!!!

They don't have the votes to pass. This has fueled the anti-armament coalition with all the ammo it needs to kill it.

 

[weg]

America has a huge lead in avionics over others

.
.

Other countries have a long way to go before catching up with The Americans in the avionics domain

Really? The US didn't invent most of the technology, you know.

And MBDA's Meteor has 25 years of extra development added to it and its designed to be a major step up in dynamic performance over AMRAAM.

 

[mahesh]

Differences: 2 pilots, one less fuel tank. So, decreased range. Not a big problem since CFTs and Drop tanks take care of range issues.
.

was there any situation of DROP tanks falling on soldiers head ? i'm very concerned about it, wondering where drop tanks fall

 

[pankaj nema]

Really? The US didn't invent most of the technology, you know.

And MBDA's Meteor has 25 years of extra development added to it and its designed to be a major step up in dynamic performance over AMRAAM.

Why dont you READ my entire post in its entirety and post a COMPREHENSIVE REPLY

 

[weg]

lol... wtf?

Germans are living in lala-land thinking they are the epitomes of virtue in the Eurozone. They believe that if other countries would follow their economic model everything would be fine. Well, that's bullshit. Germany is as much as a cause of the Euro's failure as Greece and the other southern states, its used the weakening effect of the poor economies to keep down the Euro and allowed Germany to build its industry at the expense of the rest of the Eurozone.

 

[p2prada]

was there any situation of DROP tanks falling on soldiers head ? i'm very concerned about it, wondering where drop tanks fall

None that I know of. Pilots are careful about it. It is too small to make a difference.

 

[weg]

Why dont you READ my entire post in its entirety and post a COMPREHENSIVE REPLY

The rest of your post was fantasy.