- Joined
- May 5, 2011
- Messages
- 12,846
- Likes
- 8,556
Why, is India already exporting domestically produced fighter jets...?
Know Your 'Rafale'
- Thread starter A.V.
- Start date
Why, is India already exporting domestically produced fighter jets...?
- Joined
- Feb 12, 2009
- Messages
- 7,550
- Likes
- 1,308
Is only fighter jets needs export?
anoop_mig25
Senior Member
- Joined
- Aug 17, 2009
- Messages
- 5,804
- Likes
- 3,151
which fighter jets indian has exported . LCA ?? i am sure indian authorities would have taken necessary clearance form the host country for the foreign equipment
JAISWAL
Senior Member
- Joined
- Mar 13, 2010
- Messages
- 1,527
- Likes
- 1,027
IAF defends Rafale pick
.
.
IAF defends Rafale pick
The Indian Air Force, on Monday rubbished reports in the Western media, especially in the UK, criticising India picking Dassault's Rafale over Eurofighter in the $10.4 billion medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) deal that will see India procure 126 of the selected aircraft.Deputy Chief of Air Staff, Air Marshal R?K Sharma, defending the decision, said:?"All aspects, including the technical and cost aspects, were considered before the decision was made."
He was answering a specific question after the silver jubilee celebrations of Defence Avionics Research Establishment (DARE), a DRDO laboratory. He said:?"To put it short, not everything being reported is true."
Earlier, while delivering his speech, Sharma said: A good portion of the Staff Qualitative Requirements (SQRs), which the aircraft had to comply with, were on its potential for upgradation, avionics and radar." Sharma was part of the selection committee of the aircraft.
In all, Rafale complied with 600-odd parameters laid down in the Air Staff Qualitative Requirements.?Sources said that the evaluation was done keeping in mind the life-cycle costs (a time span of 40 years), cost of other aspects like the electronic warfare equipment, avionics etc.
His statements come on the same day as Britain sought to raise the pitch for Eurofighter Typhoon. The Press Trust of India has quoted UK Minister of State for Foreign Affairs Jeremy Browne: "We feel that the Typhoon is the strongest offer"¦obviously, otherwise we wouldn't be hoping that's the competitive bid"¦ some considerations still need to be made."
Further, stating that the new Defence Offset policy will be out soon, Sharma said: ""¦Even in the MMRCA deal there will be enough for India to benefit, including in some critical technology coming our way."
Conceding that the Defence Procurement Policy (DPP) and the offset policy do not have the country's research establishments––including DRDO–– mandate and charter listed clearly, he said:?"There is however enough scope for DRDO and the likes to send in their representations to the Centre."
In the new offset policy, he said, transfer of technology (ToT) will become a more validated option, giving a boost to the research sector in the country.
Reacting to this, V?K?Saraswat, Scientific Advisor to the Defence Minister and Director General (R&D), DRDO said:?"Even we (DRDO) should become more proactive. So as we learnt that an aircraft has been chosen by the IAF, we should have began listing what kind of technology we need and so on."
LCA-Navy, Agni V soon: Saraswat
V K Saraswat, scientific advisor to the Defence Minister, said that the first flight of LCA-Navy will happen in a month while the launch of Agni-V, is scheduled for March-end, reports DHNS.
Taxing trials are already under way for LCA while
Agni-V, he said, is being integrated at Hyderabad and at Wheeler Island. "The launch will happen subject to ships being available for down-range tracking," he added.
.
.
IAF defends Rafale pick
The Indian Air Force, on Monday rubbished reports in the Western media, especially in the UK, criticising India picking Dassault's Rafale over Eurofighter in the $10.4 billion medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) deal that will see India procure 126 of the selected aircraft.Deputy Chief of Air Staff, Air Marshal R?K Sharma, defending the decision, said:?"All aspects, including the technical and cost aspects, were considered before the decision was made."
He was answering a specific question after the silver jubilee celebrations of Defence Avionics Research Establishment (DARE), a DRDO laboratory. He said:?"To put it short, not everything being reported is true."
Earlier, while delivering his speech, Sharma said: A good portion of the Staff Qualitative Requirements (SQRs), which the aircraft had to comply with, were on its potential for upgradation, avionics and radar." Sharma was part of the selection committee of the aircraft.
In all, Rafale complied with 600-odd parameters laid down in the Air Staff Qualitative Requirements.?Sources said that the evaluation was done keeping in mind the life-cycle costs (a time span of 40 years), cost of other aspects like the electronic warfare equipment, avionics etc.
His statements come on the same day as Britain sought to raise the pitch for Eurofighter Typhoon. The Press Trust of India has quoted UK Minister of State for Foreign Affairs Jeremy Browne: "We feel that the Typhoon is the strongest offer"¦obviously, otherwise we wouldn't be hoping that's the competitive bid"¦ some considerations still need to be made."
Further, stating that the new Defence Offset policy will be out soon, Sharma said: ""¦Even in the MMRCA deal there will be enough for India to benefit, including in some critical technology coming our way."
Conceding that the Defence Procurement Policy (DPP) and the offset policy do not have the country's research establishments––including DRDO–– mandate and charter listed clearly, he said:?"There is however enough scope for DRDO and the likes to send in their representations to the Centre."
In the new offset policy, he said, transfer of technology (ToT) will become a more validated option, giving a boost to the research sector in the country.
Reacting to this, V?K?Saraswat, Scientific Advisor to the Defence Minister and Director General (R&D), DRDO said:?"Even we (DRDO) should become more proactive. So as we learnt that an aircraft has been chosen by the IAF, we should have began listing what kind of technology we need and so on."
LCA-Navy, Agni V soon: Saraswat
V K Saraswat, scientific advisor to the Defence Minister, said that the first flight of LCA-Navy will happen in a month while the launch of Agni-V, is scheduled for March-end, reports DHNS.
Taxing trials are already under way for LCA while
Agni-V, he said, is being integrated at Hyderabad and at Wheeler Island. "The launch will happen subject to ships being available for down-range tracking," he added.
p2prada
Senior Member
- Joined
- May 25, 2009
- Messages
- 10,234
- Likes
- 4,015
Most of you are talking about program costs of the Rafale. India will certainly be paying part of it and not the whole of it. For eg: Eurojet would have spent billions making the EJ-200, but the ToT costs directed towards us was in the margin of $400Million in the LCA tender.
Similarly, there may be 10-15% of the deal which goes into paying for development. There are industrial clauses to cater to as well.
Once the contract is signed Dassault will have to deliver within the contracted price. Costs will reduce big time once you notice labour costs in India is many times lesser than in Europe. You can say we are the toughest market to sell weapons to and when it comes to France we get what we pay for.
What we know for sure is that Rafale costs less than the EF when it comes to unit and lifecycle costs. The IAF has taken 40 years of lifecycle costs to come to that conclusion. As the difference between the two aircraft is large in these aspects, ToT and industrial costs will not be considered which is probably where Typhoon's advantage lies.
If we say Rafale costs are expected to escalate, the same can be said for Typhoon. The article talking about soaring Rafale prices is meant for domestic consumption in the UK. Very little to do with the India deal.
Now we have IAF defending the pick, so there is nothing left to argue about. The India deal was like opening Pandora's box. Either could win and a win here would mean a win in other tenders.
Similarly, there may be 10-15% of the deal which goes into paying for development. There are industrial clauses to cater to as well.
Once the contract is signed Dassault will have to deliver within the contracted price. Costs will reduce big time once you notice labour costs in India is many times lesser than in Europe. You can say we are the toughest market to sell weapons to and when it comes to France we get what we pay for.
What we know for sure is that Rafale costs less than the EF when it comes to unit and lifecycle costs. The IAF has taken 40 years of lifecycle costs to come to that conclusion. As the difference between the two aircraft is large in these aspects, ToT and industrial costs will not be considered which is probably where Typhoon's advantage lies.
If we say Rafale costs are expected to escalate, the same can be said for Typhoon. The article talking about soaring Rafale prices is meant for domestic consumption in the UK. Very little to do with the India deal.
Now we have IAF defending the pick, so there is nothing left to argue about. The India deal was like opening Pandora's box. Either could win and a win here would mean a win in other tenders.
ROFL! You keep making claims which no user believes to be true. If R-27 was bad, then nobody would have bought it.
Of course they have to spread R & D costs over the entire quantity of aircraft (at least in one way or another). Since it would reduce the costs of the French aircraft, it is in the French govt's interest (btw public funds contributed to the majority of R & D).How do they make profit if we they dont cover the development cost in the Bill is this another aid program from?
Profit=fighter+development cost. Even for BEP(break even point) you have to take some part of production cost.
@p2p
How is depth of production of the 108 Rafale that will be manufactured in India?
What will be shipped from France, what will be made in India?
Will HAL just get the major parts to assemble and more or less take a big part of work off the hands of Dassault or are even such important parts planned to be made in India. I guess that at least the M88 or electronic parts (for ex.) will be shipped from France...
In other words: is it just assembling or even more?
How is depth of production of the 108 Rafale that will be manufactured in India?
What will be shipped from France, what will be made in India?
Will HAL just get the major parts to assemble and more or less take a big part of work off the hands of Dassault or are even such important parts planned to be made in India. I guess that at least the M88 or electronic parts (for ex.) will be shipped from France...
In other words: is it just assembling or even more?
Last edited:
Its supposed to be a lot more. Which is why I find it hard to beleive that the Rafael is 25% cheaper than the EF, as claimed by some anonymous sources.
Unless the French price cut has been supported by the Mirage upgrade and missiles deals as suggested. Lets see if Dassualt can offer the same price to Brazil etc.
vanadium
Regular Member
- Joined
- May 5, 2011
- Messages
- 239
- Likes
- 44
As long as they have all the data necessary to perform the computer simulations--and they had high quality data--they do not need to go close to the metal.
You and your acolyte obviously have no idea what operational analysis is all about or for that matter computer simulations. If you had ever flown in a simulator you would not make such silly remarks!
Of course the Flanker RCS is one of its disadvantages. So what? Every fighter was measured in the same scenarios against the same Su-27. Again, you are clueless about what you are talking about. In such cases silence should be the rule.
Flankers were armed with AA-11 Archer (R73/R74) and AA-12 Adder (R77). I would say quite reputable munitions.
In summary: your comments are a complete joke.
Can be. I do not know if it is 25%, but we know that the overall package costs less. Even 10% would make a substantial difference at the end of the day. It is not hard to believe, that the Rafale is a little cheaper. Perhaps it requires less manpower to assemble it (I don't know), perhaps maintenance is a little cheaper, probably fuel consumption is lower... If spare pricing was aggressive, this could have had an impact. Considering that India is already operating Dassault Fighters, there could be some synergy potential in terms of logistics and training (for ex.).
Whatever it is, it was probably a combination of several factors including pricing policy and running costs.
Indianboy
Regular Member
- Joined
- Jan 14, 2012
- Messages
- 217
- Likes
- 109
Door Shut on Eurofighter As Dassault Prepares For Commercial Talks with Indian MoD
The Indian MoD and Dassault are scheduled to begin commercial talks to freeze the aircraft architecture next week following the Rafale fighter's win of the MMRCA contract. Defenseworld.net had earlier reported that the next step following Rafale's selection as the lowest bidder would be defining the aircraft architecture.
Informed sources told Defenseworld.net that a high level team would arrive from France and interact with the Indian MoD's Contract Negotiations Committee (CNC) on defining what the aircraft composition would be like and freezing the price. This process effectively rules out any further discussions with the losing finalist, Eurofighter. B.A.E. Systems, part of the Eurofighter Consortium has claimed that the contract is yet to the signed and that it would pursue its case with the Indian government on getting the deal.
Meanwhile, it is learnt that the Eurofighter Typhoon lost because had a "substantially higher cost" of acquiring and operating the fighter that had let to its termination from the contract, The Times of India reported last week.
"The French Rafale jet, the eventual winner, beat the Typhoon hollow both in terms of life cycle costs and direct acquisition costs. The entire MMRCA project cost would have gone up by around Rs 25,000 crore (US$5 billion) if Typhoon had been selected over Rafale", the newspaper quoted a defence ministry source as saying.
The Indian MoD and Dassault are scheduled to begin commercial talks to freeze the aircraft architecture next week following the Rafale fighter's win of the MMRCA contract. Defenseworld.net had earlier reported that the next step following Rafale's selection as the lowest bidder would be defining the aircraft architecture.
Informed sources told Defenseworld.net that a high level team would arrive from France and interact with the Indian MoD's Contract Negotiations Committee (CNC) on defining what the aircraft composition would be like and freezing the price. This process effectively rules out any further discussions with the losing finalist, Eurofighter. B.A.E. Systems, part of the Eurofighter Consortium has claimed that the contract is yet to the signed and that it would pursue its case with the Indian government on getting the deal.
Meanwhile, it is learnt that the Eurofighter Typhoon lost because had a "substantially higher cost" of acquiring and operating the fighter that had let to its termination from the contract, The Times of India reported last week.
"The French Rafale jet, the eventual winner, beat the Typhoon hollow both in terms of life cycle costs and direct acquisition costs. The entire MMRCA project cost would have gone up by around Rs 25,000 crore (US$5 billion) if Typhoon had been selected over Rafale", the newspaper quoted a defence ministry source as saying.
Nice picturesHow's that
- Joined
- Dec 17, 2009
- Messages
- 13,811
- Likes
- 6,734
The performance of R-27 over Eritrea saw a dozen shots and zero kills. It was ripple fired and cannot even hit the side of a barn. This was against MiGs with no ECM. Of course this report would not know this because it was pre-Eritrean war. It did not include R-77 as Su-27 did not carry it.
Joke is on you...
Joke is on you...
- Joined
- Sep 15, 2010
- Messages
- 1,662
- Likes
- 526
Well, Armand, I have said for a long long time that BVR combat success is overhyped. It is really good when the contest is grossly overmatched by one side - like NATO against Serbia or against Iraq or Afghanistan. But against two similarly matched foes, the chances are not that great.The performance of R-27 over Eritrea saw a dozen shots and zero kills. It was ripple fired and cannot even hit the side of a barn. This was against MiGs with no ECM. Of course this report would not know this because it was pre-Eritrean war. It did not include R-77 as Su-27 did not carry it.
Joke is on you...
Here are some counterpoints -
1. The Eritrean war you are talking about was in 1999, when they were fighting using soviet-era old missiles (R-27R) with questionable seeker performance, low-tech radars on the aircraft and two evenly matched sides. A total of ~24 missiles were fired by both sides and only one "hit" was recorded.
2. The vaunted AIM7 Sparrow (AIM7E) has a kill potential of 10% and after firing about 1000 missiles till date have had ~5% success rate - that too against much less equipped opponents. The AMRAAM AIM120 used by USAF and NATO forces has a kill ratio of 20% - considered to be the best of all times - mostly against vastly inferior enemy- neither well trained pilots, nor very well protected (ECM and observability) aircraft. It will be interesting to see how the AIM 120 perform against a more balanced opponent (PAF against IAF or USAF against PLAAF).
- Joined
- Dec 17, 2009
- Messages
- 13,811
- Likes
- 6,734
Comparing BVRAAM from Vietnam to modern AIM-7 and AMRAAM is as you say, apples and oranges. AIM-7 over Iraq did several times better and AMRAAM is over 50%. Get the numbers right people, these fake comparisons do not do you justice.
- Joined
- Dec 17, 2009
- Messages
- 13,811
- Likes
- 6,734
Swiss open to concrete offer from Dassault for jets
Feb 14 (Reuters) - Switzerland would be prepared to examine a concrete offer from rival Dassault to buy figher jet planes if it were to be presented with one, its defence minister said on Tuesday.
"We've asked the French to give us a really concrete offer," Defence Minister Ueli Maurer told a news conference on Tuesday.
"If we really do get a lower offer, we'd be able to look at it. We only have a deal with Sweden when the parliament's given the funding and there's possibly been a referendum," he said.
In November the government opted to buy 22 JAS-39 Gripens for a price tag of 3.1 billion Swiss francs ($3.4 bln) over rival bids for the Rafale built by France's Dassault Aviation and EADS's Anglo-German-Italian Eurofighter Typhoon.
Newspapers hreported that Dassault had made a cheaper counter bid, but Maurer said he had not received another offer from Dassault.
Swiss open to concrete offer from Dassault for jets | Reuters
Herr Maurer is trying to save his ass by backtracking on Gripen. Rafale for the WIN!
Feb 14 (Reuters) - Switzerland would be prepared to examine a concrete offer from rival Dassault to buy figher jet planes if it were to be presented with one, its defence minister said on Tuesday.
"We've asked the French to give us a really concrete offer," Defence Minister Ueli Maurer told a news conference on Tuesday.
"If we really do get a lower offer, we'd be able to look at it. We only have a deal with Sweden when the parliament's given the funding and there's possibly been a referendum," he said.
In November the government opted to buy 22 JAS-39 Gripens for a price tag of 3.1 billion Swiss francs ($3.4 bln) over rival bids for the Rafale built by France's Dassault Aviation and EADS's Anglo-German-Italian Eurofighter Typhoon.
Newspapers hreported that Dassault had made a cheaper counter bid, but Maurer said he had not received another offer from Dassault.
Swiss open to concrete offer from Dassault for jets | Reuters
Herr Maurer is trying to save his ass by backtracking on Gripen. Rafale for the WIN!
17 AIM-120 AMRAAM fired, 10 hits => success rate above 50%
But: Only six where fired BVR, meaning that AMRAAM is very likely having a success rate below 50 % in BVR use.
According to Dr. John Stillion AIM-120 AMRAAM will have an success rate of about 50% against an unalerted SU-35BM without defensive capabilities.
But: Only six where fired BVR, meaning that AMRAAM is very likely having a success rate below 50 % in BVR use.
According to Dr. John Stillion AIM-120 AMRAAM will have an success rate of about 50% against an unalerted SU-35BM without defensive capabilities.
| Thread starter | Similar threads | Forum | Replies | Date |
|---|---|---|---|---|
|
Rafale in Croatian Air Force | Military Aviation | 7 | |
| W | Rafale and F 18 super hornet shortlisted by Indian navy | Indian Navy | 21 | |
|
Indian Navy more likely to select F 18 than rafales | Indian Navy | 164 | |
|
|
Greek Rafale vs Turkish EF 2000 Who has the Technolocal Edge | Military Aviation | 5 |
