Know Your 'Rafale'

[Cola]

arundo,
the difference is, the program price is payed to vendor when you buy the plane (it's equipment cost in NAO report) and PU for Rafale.
Over life time cost is program price + exploitation costs and is being payed at purchase (to vendor) and over time (to support/service provider), until the plane gets retired.

Dunno where did you get the idea that Rafale costs €152m over life time, but you obviously can't even figure the order of magnitude, here.
Dassault's initial offer to Brazil was $338m per plane for over 30 years of exploitation, which is nowhere near €142m (when the bid was set).

Now as for Indian price, even €127m is $190m, which gives a ~$24b worth of deal (Indians cover life cycle costs) and French don't make a single € of profit and are already subsidizing India (not sure if this is legal in France at all, btw).
So, this means if India gets the deal anywhere below ~$24b, French will actually be paying Indians to fly Rafale!
How is that for marketing?!

And on top off all, let's not forget French document here doesn't deal with F3+ standard and when AESA actually gets into Rafale, its price will become anyone's guess.

 

[arundo]

arundo,
the difference is, the program price is payed to vendor when you buy the plane (it's equipment cost in NAO report) and PU for Rafale.
Over life time cost is program price + exploitation costs and is being payed at purchase (to vendor) and over time (to support/service provider), until the plane gets retired.

Dunno where did you get the idea that Rafale costs €152m over life time, but you obviously can't even figure the order of magnitude, here.
Dassault's initial offer to Brazil was $338m per plane for over 30 years of exploitation, which is nowhere near €142m (when the bid was set).

Now as for Indian price, even €127m is $190m, which gives a ~$24b worth of deal (Indians cover life cycle costs) and French don't make a single € of profit.
So, this means if India gets the deal anywhere below ~$24b, French will actually be paying Indians to fly Rafale!
How is that for marketing?!

And on top off all, let's not forget French document here doesn't deal with F3+ standard and when AESA actually gets into Rafale, its price will become anyone's guess.

and arundo thx, I speak French myself.

You should google with open questions.

"Le coût total du programme, actualisé aux prix de 2011, est de 43,56 milliards d'euros pour l'Etat avec le développement", indiquent les sénateurs. Et non plus de 40,7 milliards lors de la dernière évaluation. Ce qui porte donc le prix unitaire d'un Rafale payé par la France à 152 millions d'euros (pour 286 appareils), contre 142 millions auparavant.
Ces 10 millions supplémentaires, qui sont calculés pour une durée de 40 ans, résultent à la fois de la prise en compte de l'inflation, mais surtout, de la mise au standard F3, réalisée sur 48 avions entre 2008 et octobre 2010. "

There is nothing with 152 million paid to the vendor when you buy the Rafale. It is a budget for the entire program and calculated over 40 years of operation and includes everything. 43,6 billion is a forecast. NAO and Cour des Comptes seem to use different terminology, that's all.

Les sénateurs réévaluent le prix du Rafale - Aéronautique

"Le coût global du programme Rafale (études, production, soutien, etc.)..."

Do you still have questions or need further information?

 

[methos]

Gripen NG demo never came to India. Evaluators had to go to Sweden.

Rafale is superior in A2A due to it's sensor fusion, high acquisition tracking capabilities and off-boresight missiles. HMD was not presented to the Suisse evaluation but TopSight-E is selected for India.

You are comparing the Rafale with which aircraft?

 

[Cola]

arundo,
extra 10 millions per plane are upgrades (radar, engines, etc..) that will be distributed over 40 years and are added to PU, which wasn't provided in PU in 2010, when the doc I linked was assembled and that's called program price (to quote NAO - assessment, development, production and upgrade costs).
However, it doesn't mean that €152m is a life time cost of the Rafale.

Are you seriously this obtuse?

 

[I4U]

Cost per unit for UK, France and India

@arundo. Am I wrong if I say the EF will cost 275M€ to UK and the Rafale 152€ to their respective users (UK and France)?

I calculate so for Typhoon: 37B£ for total cost of ownership for 160 EF (I don't take in account the fact the 60 first EF (tranche 1) will be retired without upgrade soon). 37B£ converted in €: 44,123B€ to current change rate. Divided by 160: 275M€ per unit.

For the Rafale: 43B€ for the total cost of ownership for 283 Rafale which mean 152M€ per unit. The both cost includes development, but just a part of the development is supported by UK when the whole part of development is supported by France.

I red the flyaway cost per unit was between 65M€ (Rafale C) and 70M€ (Rafale M). But the prices about which we are speaking (152M€ for Rafale and 275M€ for EF) includes:

1. Development;
2. Flyaway cost
3. Maintenance.

The pricing of Rafale for India includes the fact that most part of them will be produced and maintained in India to a much lower cost on one part, on the other part, the cost of ToT is included.

If the contract is worth of 15B€, the cost per unit is 119M€ per unit, if it is 20B€, the price per unit is 158M€. In case the contract soars to 30B$, the cost per unit in € would be 179,8M€ which seems unlikely.

 

[sayareakd]

stupid question is kickback included in this price............?

 

[thakur_ritesh]

i have read a bit of this thread, some points.

corruption: unlikely for now, no contract has been signed yet. the time for accusations will come when the contract will be signed, and this possibly is the most transparent deal ever in the indian defence hardware acquisition history.

additional order: the deal is for 126+63, and not 80 as speculated in one such report. 63 will be at the same price + inflation. there will be no new tender.

political angle: there have been some negotiations going on about north-west african oil where france is a dominant player.

brit reaction: i like it, good the true colors have been shown, much like what one saw after the two american jets were shown the door. reactions like these tell you who you can trust and who not.

 

[amitkriit]

stupid question is kickback included in this price............?

Totally, that's how it works. Elections are near, they need funds and Babus need $$$ in any season.
Reliance out-smarted TATA this time.

 

[Cola]

Also, while at prices, Armand can you give me a hand here, pls?

The document from French Senate quotes "Prix de production" being €101m.
I mean, translation would be "flyaway price" in Anglo-American terms, but is it indeed?
You know, I wouldn't want to say the Rafale's more expensive to fabricate than the F22, if I don't have to.

 

[arundo]

@arundo. Am I wrong if I say the EF will cost 275M€ to UK and the Rafale 152€ to their respective users (UK and France)?

I calculate so for Typhoon: 37B£ for total cost of ownership for 160 EF (I don't take in account the fact the 60 first EF (tranche 1) will be retired without upgrade soon). 37B£ converted in €: 44,123B€ to current change rate. Divided by 160: 275M€ per unit.

For the Rafale: 43B€ for the total cost of ownership for 283 Rafale which mean 152M€ per unit. The both cost includes development, but just a part of the development is supported by UK when the whole part of development is supported by France.

I red the flyaway cost per unit was between 65M€ (Rafale C) and 70M€ (Rafale M). But the prices about which we are speaking (152M€ for Rafale and 275M€ for EF) includes:

1. Development;
2. Flyaway cost
3. Maintenance.

The pricing of Rafale for India includes the fact that most part of them will be produced and maintained in India to a much lower cost on one part, on the other part, the cost of ToT is included.

If the contract is worth of 15B€, the cost per unit is 119M€ per unit, if it is 20B€, the price per unit is 158M€. In case the contract soars to 30B$, the cost per unit in € would be 179,8M€ which seems unlikely.

I would agree. I just was trying to explain that maintenance /operating costs over life were included in both cases, at leas partially.

I think that we cannot compare the French price and the Indian price, as many things have still to be negotiated. Do we know exactly, what is included in the Indian price today? I do not think so. Furthermore, as I tried to explain "Cola" but in vain, we cannot compare an export price with a "home" price. According to French tax low, VAT has to be added. Of course, the fact that 108 planes will be assembled in India has an impact on pricing.

Furthermore, I think that we can compare (not exactly, but more or less) EF and Rafale costs. According to the Assemblée Nationale in 2004: "... le prix unitaire d'un Rafale s'élève à 113 millions d'euros. Pour mémoire, il peut être rappelé que le coût de l'avion Eurofighter EF-Typhoon est estimé, selon les mêmes critères, à 175 millions d'euros. "

This was prior to the cut backs of the Luftwaffe and RAF and prior to the injection of additional funds, which both increased the costs of Typhoon. Both programs had increases since, but the Typhoon even more.
Considering that French VAT of 19,6% and assuming that the British VAT of 17,5% is included, the % difference between the net costs could even be higher.
N� 2572-08 - Avis pr�sent� au nom de la commission de la d�fense sur le projet de loi de finances pour 2006 (n� 2540), tome VIII�: D�fense, �quipement des forces (M. J�r�me Rivi�re)

Of course, "programs" include both more than just purchasing and dvpt. costs and btw the Brits use the terminus "programme" as well

"...each individual aircraft is £55 million - or 75 per cent - more expensive than planned and the total programme cost will eventually hit £37 billion". Today we know, that the 37 billion Pounds are budgeted.
Multibillion Eurofighter Typhoon overspend revealed - Channel 4 News

We know, that the Rafale programme includes maintenance costs as well: "La cible du programme est de 286 appareils (228 pour l'armée de l'air et 58 pour la marine) avec leurs équipements de mission et leur stock de rechange initial. Il comprend également certains moyens de maintenance et deux centres de simulation au standard F2"
Projet de loi de finances pour 2012 : D�fense : �quipement des forces

Conclusion: we have to assume that there are some costs not included as well in the Typhoon as in the Rafale Programme and therefore we can only compare roughly. However, based on the British figures, it is obvious that the Typhoon programme was more expensive as a whole (for less return so far) - although they did only finance a part of the development costs, while the French had to bear 100% of their costs.

 

[arundo]

Irony or stupidity?
India spent 2 billion USD on Tejas LCA development which included building test infrastructure from labs to test rigs and people where crying about what a huge waste it is, while France spent 50billion euros which becomes more when you convert to dollars!

India should just shut hell up and people should not comment on the Tejas, you throw peanuts and they give you a tiger. If we spent 50billion we would have stealth fighter.

Rafale cost could soar into Skies

I assume this is wrong, as the total costs were about 43 billion euro today (< 57 billion USD, on basis of an increased exchange rate of 1,3 vs. the initial one). This amount already includes development, fly away and at least partially maintenance / operating costs over 40 years for 294 aircraft as well as related costs (training, simulators, infrastructure..).

 

[arundo]

i have read a bit of this thread, some points.

additional order: the deal is for 126+63, and not 80 as speculated in one such report. 63 will be at the same price + inflation. there will be no new tender.

Ordering or not the 63 additional units will depend on what?

 

[Godless-Kafir]

I assume this is wrong, as the total costs were about 43 billion euro today (< 57 billion USD, on basis of an increased exchange rate of 1,3 vs. the initial one). This amount already includes development, fly away and at least partially maintenance / operating costs over 40 years for 294 aircraft as well as related costs (training, simulators, infrastructure..).

It can never include operating costs, IAF tried to calculate the operating costs for 40years in the 12billion deal and gave up because it is very hard to predict the future.

 

[arundo]

It can never include operating costs, IAF tried to calculate the operating costs for 40years in the 12billion deal and gave up because it is very hard to predict the future.

Hello Godless-Kafir,

you are right, but it seems that the French made some provisions for operating costs, which are included in the figure mentioned above. At least, there is an amount to be allocated, as the govt. has to make budgets. It is clear, that the real costs will be different and probably higher.
I would say that the development cost will amount for a max. of 50% of the program costs, which is still a huge amount of course
We have to deduct the production costs (I would say at least 70 million per unit) and the mentioned estimated maintenance / operating costs. Finally, there are 19,6% tax included.

 

[thakur_ritesh]

Ordering or not the 63 additional units will depend on what?

Arundo,

will depend on the need, if so felt by IAF, and experience with rafale. need in turn will depend on status of AMCA, on the progress made and the status of the craft then. it is felt that the option of 63 will eventually be used but if that were to happen we are talking about the end of this decade when such an order could be placed.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

1. Check the Payload
2. Check the Speed
3. Check the Range
4. Check the Source from where she Obtained..

 

[Cola]

arundo,
Brazilian tender:
$4b for support of 36 planes over 30 years - €74m per plane

If flyaway cost is ~€70m (as per French Senate's disclosure in 2009 "hors développement", meaning without development costs, meaning flyaway price - the same one that EF costs €60m, today) and assuming French lifetime costs aren't more expensive than Brazilian, that comes to ~€144m per plane, wich is great, except for the part where someone needs to foot the remaining ~€20b of development costs (in 2009 as well and counting) bill for the aircraft, which comes down to €70m per plane on the 286 plane sized run.

So, Rafale's actual price per plane for French (prior to India) is ~€70m (from 2008, today considerably higher) + €74m lifetime costs (over 30 years, but with Brazilian price tag, which is I suppose lower then French) + €70m development costs (which is absolute minimum since it has already been payed for and not counting extra €3b Rafale already spent since Senate's 2010 report).

Why do you keep posting arundo, when you obviously don't have a clue?

 

[Godless-Kafir]

Hello Godless-Kafir,

you are right, but it seems that the French made some provisions for operating costs, which are included in the figure mentioned above. At least, there is an amount to be allocated, as the govt. has to make budgets. It is clear, that the real costs will be different and probably higher.
I would say that the development cost will amount for a max. of 50% of the program costs, which is still a huge amount of course
We have to deduct the production costs (I would say at least 70 million per unit) and the mentioned estimated maintenance / operating costs. Finally, there are 19,6% tax included.

Well all sources claim the development cost of the aircraft is above 40billion Euros and the fly away costs of each aircraft is 142million Euros.

Compare that with the Tejas 1.5billion USD for the project cost and unit cost is around 25million USD. They have done a wonderful job in as far as building a aircraft to replace the Mig-21 aircraft. I suspect if GoI showed more confidence they would have built an MMRCA in India as well but sadly there was no confidence back in the 90s and 80s.

DR is a good fighter but some sources claims they are moving production of DR to India and that will cut over all life cycle and production costs plus if they manufacture sub systems here then the cost will come down drastically to 50million or so!

 

[Godless-Kafir]

1. Check the Payload
2. Check the Speed
3. Check the Range
4. Check the Source from where she Obtained..

At the end of next year we may end up buying the Mig-35...!

 

[Armand2REP]

Cost of development is not what India pays. French tax payer already covered that bill.