Know Your 'Rafale'

[Rizvi Khan]

 

[Drsomnath999]

https://www.itamilradar.com/2020/08/29/greece-to-buy-rafale/



https://www.meta-defense.fr/en/2020/08/25/Greece-would-like-to-acquire-12-Rafale-planes/



http://www.defense-aerospace.com/ar...ance-steps-up-rafale-marketing-in-greece.html



hee hee rafale vs S400 scenario twice



one in india vs china and now greece vs turkey even if france might use himself if not greece if this news of gifting rafale is not true btw rafale old version if they give to greece

i am skeptical how would it perform against S400



lets see how rafale performs



CHEERS

 

[Drsomnath999]

Dassault. The government could review the "schedule" of orders for 30 Rafale
The government is discussing with the manufacturer Dassault a possible adjustment of the "timetable" for the order of 30 Rafale fighters, initially scheduled for 2023, in order to help it deal with the crisis in the aeronautics sector.



The government is discussing with the manufacturer Dassault a possible adjustment of the schedule for the order of 30 Rafale fighters, initially scheduled for 2023, in order to help it cope with the crisis in the aeronautics sector , the Minister for Armies Florence Parly .


We are going to see how we can best adapt the timing of these orders so that Dassault Aviation's production lines are preserved , noted Florence Parly in the program Le Grand Rendez-vous of radio Europe 1 , the CNews channel. and the daily Les Échos .

For now, these chains are running for export , she noted, suggesting that the manufacturer had something to support its activity. Egypt, India and Qatar have ordered Rafale.

In connection with the Dassault company, we are studying the best time to launch these orders, to ensure not only the continuity of the activities of the Dassault company but also of all these subcontractors who are behind , continued the minister.




The group fears that when exporting, states will be less inclined to order
In January 2019, Florence Parly indicated that the 30 Rafale would be ordered in 2023. They will be added to the 28 Rafale which must be delivered to the French Armies between 2022 and 2024.



Dassault Aviation has suffered the full impact of the crisis in the aeronautics sector caused by the Covid-19 epidemic , in particular on its business aviation activity.

In the first half of the year, the aircraft manufacturer delivered seven Rafale to India and Qatar and 16 Falcon business jets.

Regarding the Rafale and the defense sector, the group fears that for export, States will be less inclined to order equipment in times of economic crisis.

Dassault therefore also relies heavily on Rafale orders from France to support its activity and that of its suppliers, which has been strongly affected by the crisis in the aeronautics sector.

https://www.ouest-france.fr/economie/entreprises/dassault/dassault-le-gouvernement-pourrait-revoir-le-calendrier-de-commandes-de-30-rafale-6953008

 

[Flying Dagger]

Sounds like a corruption scheme or acting when ass is on fire like buying all we can as of now (like more migs)....where are forecasts and projections....looks like no Operations Research in IAF.....also Russia has vast stocks and still use R-73's


Beggars can't be choosers, replacing Russia with Israel is no better. Only homegrown is the option.




If someone quotes 70% in peacetime then its certainly 20% less than that at a minimum....actually recent US fleet readiness is appaling whether its navy or airforce and accidents are happening ever more frequently. So many just occured in Japan recently.....



Irrelevant, avg french made aircraft in Indian fleet is over 5 years apart from Rafale. Russian jets are even worse. Actually India's fleet is not small. We are like 4th largest airforce.


Does the migs include new engines?

No, we lost a pilot and couple of planes if I remember and if IAF was so successful it would not have been so brutal for the ARMY to lose so many brave young soldiers. IAF could not even do a proper job in Pathankot insurgency episode....am sorry I am being critical

Only partially, lost a pilot, a heli and PR. I do not think this is a successful operation but not a complete failure in the context of PAF to IAF and not the actual terrorist camps which is a success on many respects. IAF needs to be on offence.....same nonsense for decades. India is not Russia to sit with defence strategy.

I am on the fence on the F-16, we will know in a decade I guess but even if it did....post strike should have been planned better with offensive posture and unfortunate heli loss

What they say abt fleet availability isn't just general chatter But a detailed report presented by respective airforce. Rest is just your speculation.



And no one's begging here. They have product we have money.

AF did what it was asked for in Kargil. And if you can't take a loss or 2 in such skirmishes you don't have heart for a war.

Precisely the reason, IAF wasn't asked to retaliate after 27 Feb.

You lose so many men on ground but they don't matter a pilot is captured start making hue n cry.

IAF was able to strike inside Pork's territory but when porkis retaliated they did it like rats.

 

[omaebakabaka]

What they say abt fleet availability isn't just general chatter But a detailed report presented by respective airforce. Rest is just your speculation.



And no one's begging here. They have product we have money.

AF did what it was asked for in Kargil. And if you can't take a loss or 2 in such skirmishes you don't have heart for a war.

Precisely the reason, IAF wasn't asked to retaliate after 27 Feb.

You lose so many men on ground but they don't matter a pilot is captured start making hue n cry.

IAF was able to strike inside Pork's territory but when porkis retaliated they did it like rats.

Even strategic nuclear forces have around 90% readiness in super powers, no amount of official releases are going to change that based on facts and 60 to 70% readiness in peacetime is pretty decent for any airforce. I am 100% sure if you have 80% readiness, we most likely do not have ammo stocks to load them with....You quoted USAF and I just provided recent performance of USAF based on their own benchmarks. We are begging (or desperation), why didn't we see this urgency with Rajnath going to Russia multiple times and asking for jets and ammunition when ass is on fire? This is congi sabotage combined with IAF not showing urgency....not necessarily BJP govt actions or lack of but it is what it is....Russia was offering s-400's for a while but we did not order it. Just imagine having s-400 and what kinda deterrent it would be for Pakis?

I am not sure I follow "AF did what it was asked for in Kargil"....it is not government that plans the operations but the IAF and joint staff operations command in coming up with how it can help based on its capabilities....govt generally only gives its approvals after risk evaluation. It is actually not that hard to see IAF and Indian govt both lack offensive mindset to take the war to enemy big or small and no amount of equipment is going to help with that mindset to prevent initial and avoidable losses. We get excited with one op cross border while they attack our forces everyday and Israel does it more than once a day...time to raise the bar. Indian army has done so many things to improve their tactics fighting insurgency but IAF still nothing new....govt and IAF leadership should do everything to not put our pilot's life on the line due to poor strategies. May be its just me feeling this way

 

[BON PLAN]

Even Su have 50-60% availability and Mig 29s of IAF have 75-80% in IAF. May be a wet dream for French.

LOL.
Rafale on the french carrier have a 95% availability.

After all Dassault inked a contract for the availability of the bird. Why there is nothing like that with Mig or Sukhoi? (because they will never accept !)

 

[BON PLAN]

Kargil They didn't had to do that simultaneously there were other Mirages available too but not used as they were incapable to do so.

Fake news.

 

[BON PLAN]

For price of 150 Mirages I can also see 300+ Mig 29s too.

So back to the fact Mirage upgrade was over priced and that is the case with every french product.

Nice.
Why did india inked a deal for the costlier Rafale ? (maybe because IAF top brass knew the russian birds were technically too short, as seen last year in february....)

 

[BON PLAN]

It's not just Taiwan but India too. No one used the right washing technique ?

Once again, why spending so much money on a bird whose maintenance seemed so costly ????

 

[BON PLAN]

1. USAF has a huge fleet to maintain consisting of stealth jets F-15s etc and they have 70+ availability rate.

WRONG.

 

[Immanuel]

MKI and MIG-29 UPG in IAF have a peace-time availability between 70-75%. They also have the ability to have 90% availability during wartime. A lot of work was done over the last 3 years to achieve this. Rafale too will have a peace-time availability of 75%.

Mig-29Ks deployed on the INS Vikky have 85- 90% availability, while the rest on shore have an availability of 70% during peace-time.

 

[Sridhar_TN]

Even Su have 50-60% availability and Mig 29s of IAF have 75-80% in IAF. May be a wet dream for French.

Kargil They didn't had to do that simultaneously there were other Mirages available too but not used as they were incapable to do so.

And the solution was provided by Israel on a plane meant for strike role in IAF.

Mirage 2k were cancelled for more Mig 29s , 78 were bought plus later 45 more for IN overall100 of these will serve in IAF and 45 for IN.

For price of 150 Mirages I can also see 300+ Mig 29s too.

So back to the fact Mirage upgrade was over priced and that is the case with every french product.

It's not just Taiwan but India too. No one used the right washing technique ?

I would put up the premium and go in for a large number of rafales instead of migs any day. It’s not because of a fetish/fanboy ocd for rafales. It’s what the rafale brings to the table compared to a mig. Which is why iAf is so adamant in the rafale. And I’ve said this before, if dassault agrees to guarrenteed tech transfer as part of offset deals to assist in AMCA and tejas development, I’m all for it.

 

[Flying Dagger]

Even strategic nuclear forces have around 90% readiness in super powers, no amount of official releases are going to change that based on facts and 60 to 70% readiness in peacetime is pretty decent for any airforce. I am 100% sure if you have 80% readiness, we most likely do not have ammo stocks to load them with....You quoted USAF and I just provided recent performance of USAF based on their own benchmarks. We are begging (or desperation), why didn't we see this urgency with Rajnath going to Russia multiple times and asking for jets and ammunition when ass is on fire? This is congi sabotage combined with IAF not showing urgency....not necessarily BJP govt actions or lack of but it is what it is....Russia was offering s-400's for a while but we did not order it. Just imagine having s-400 and what kinda deterrent it would be for Pakis?

I am not sure I follow "AF did what it was asked for in Kargil"....it is not government that plans the operations but the IAF and joint staff operations command in coming up with how it can help based on its capabilities....govt generally only gives its approvals after risk evaluation. It is actually not that hard to see IAF and Indian govt both lack offensive mindset to take the war to enemy big or small and no amount of equipment is going to help with that mindset to prevent initial and avoidable losses. We get excited with one op cross border while they attack our forces everyday and Israel does it more than once a day...time to raise the bar. Indian army has done so many things to improve their tactics fighting insurgency but IAF still nothing new....govt and IAF leadership should do everything to not put our pilot's life on the line due to poor strategies. May be its just me feeling this way

WTH you are talking abt.

Our fleet availability rate is 80% for Mig 29s and Mirages. Period.

What did you provided abt USAF ?

Their annual report states 70% rate which I quoted .

Even Bonplan just said Rafales have 95% availability rate for French carrier.

As far as weapons are concerned we have a huge stock right now. But when you fly with these missiles loaded on your jet the shelf life decrease that's what happened after the SS2 and missiles were bought to renew the stocks.

During Kargil PAF never intervened due to Mig 29s armed with BVR missiles which were able to lock on F-16s.

Then gov specifically told army not to cross border. This is a democracy where leaders decide and take final call not defence forces that's why whole credit of surgical strikes was on Modi politically .

Russia offered a lot of things but it's not vegetable market you have to get the technical details what they are offering then negotiate the price workout how to pay them since money isn't just sitting in tijori at the same time workout diplomatic means to ensure and take America into confidence. And these things take time.

Regarding this and that there is no end to the complaint game . Forgive me my lord.

 

[Flying Dagger]

I would put up the premium and go in for a large number of rafales instead of migs any day. It’s not because of a fetish/fanboy ocd for rafales. It’s what the rafale brings to the table compared to a mig. Which is why iAf is so adamant in the rafale. And I’ve said this before, if dassault agrees to guarrenteed tech transfer as part of offset deals to assist in AMCA and tejas development, I’m all for it.

Read with your eyes open this post is abt Mirage and Mig 29UPG upgrade but since you have already hijacked the point don't quote me.

 

[omaebakabaka]

WTH you are talking abt.

Our fleet availability rate is 80% for Mig 29s and Mirages. Period.

What did you provided abt USAF ?

Their annual report states 70% rate which I quoted .

Even Bonplan just said Rafales have 95% availability rate for French carrier.

As far as weapons are concerned we have a huge stock right now. But when you fly with these missiles loaded on your jet the shelf life decrease that's what happened after the SS2 and missiles were bought to renew the stocks.

During Kargil PAF never intervened due to Mig 29s armed with BVR missiles which were able to lock on F-16s.

Then gov specifically told army not to cross border. This is a democracy where leaders decide and take final call not defence forces that's why whole credit of surgical strikes was on Modi politically .

Russia offered a lot of things but it's not vegetable market you have to get the technical details what they are offering then negotiate the price workout how to pay them since money isn't just sitting in tijori at the same time workout diplomatic means to ensure and take America into confidence. And these things take time.

Regarding this and that there is no end to the complaint game . Forgive me my lord.

I hope you are right, money was not a decider though as India has decent reserves and economy pre-covid was decent. They should have went for s-400 a lot earlier like China did. Sukhoi's are most of our fleet when it comes to advanced aircraft and their availability is at best 60% on avg which means it could be better at some times. Rafale's are relatively new and french carrier itself does not have that kinda availability. If we beleive USAF on everything then F-35 wouldn't have emptied out treasury. There are just too many accidents recently in US AF and USN recently and lot of accidents in training unfortunately. Mig29s do not have that kinda availability either on average again and not a point in time.

Why would they load with live ammunition when flying sorties? You are making up stuff, all non combat sorties are with dummies in general.

Regarding Kargil, democracy has nothing to do with it. When you send mig-21's odds are not in your favor against a more modern aircraft. IAF has to get the bombs while action is happening (from Russia I think?), only you can be satisfied with this kind of preparedness. IAF operations were totally ineffective, heck they could not even take out insurgents in Pathankot base with a heli (whole operation was a shame). I think they did learn their lessons post Kargil though....

I hope your optimism is true though as we cheer for the same side.

 

[omaebakabaka]

Here is something from the net about USAF readiness and these numbers are always inflated a bit without exception...

Aircraft mission-capable rates hit new low in Air Force, despite efforts to improve

The Air Force’s aircraft readiness continued its multi-year slide in fiscal 2018, as the overall mission-capable rate for the aging fleet dropped below 70 percent — its lowest point in at least six years.

www.airforcetimes.com

 

[Flying Dagger]

LOL.
Rafale on the french carrier have a 95% availability.

After all Dassault inked a contract for the availability of the bird. Why there is nothing like that with Mig or Sukhoi? (because they will never accept !)

We already have 75-80% availability rate with Mig 29s there is no need to pay to them for that.

Mig -35 would have come with the same clause if selected so did Gripen or any other jet and they participated in the tender knowing that.

Fake news what ? Lmao

Wrong what ? Lol

Once again, why spending so much money on a bird whose maintenance seemed so costly ????

So atlast you admitted after all the lies and denial.

Taiwan and India both are doing it due to varied reason. No one is going to just throw the money they have already spent to procure them for the reason of not maintaining them.

Nice.
Why did india inked a deal for the costlier Rafale ? (maybe because IAF top brass knew the russian birds were technically too short, as seen last year in february....)

India is inducting 33 more of those russian birds too and have over 350+ of them.

Anyway since you have again jumped off from the topic in hand.

I'll repeat myself French birds are too expensive in comparison to American which are much better but due to political reason we generally avoid them and pay a premium for French birds.

One of the reason Taiwan made a deal for new F-16s not Rafales or Mirage 2k.

 

[BON PLAN]

I'll repeat myself French birds are too expensive in comparison to American which are much better but due to political reason we generally avoid them and pay a premium for French birds.

One of the reason Taiwan made a deal for new F-16s not Rafales or Mirage 2k.

Fortunately the sole F16 shooted down in AtoA was due to a Mirage 2000....

Political reason to not purchase US jets ? what reasons? Because India purchase P8I, Attack helo, helo, maybe drones....

France has said afer the sale of 60 x M2000 to Taiwan that we will never supply another fighter because high pressures from China and Airbus purchase from China in the balance. It is called diplomacy.

So stop your average pro american BS.

 

[omaebakabaka]

Fortunately the sole F16 shooted down in AtoA was due to a Mirage 2000....

Political reason to not purchase US jets ? what reasons? Because India purchase P8I, Attack helo, helo, maybe drones....

France has said afer the sale of 60 x M2000 to Taiwan that we will never supply another fighter because high pressures from China and Airbus purchase from China in the balance. It is called diplomacy.

So stop your average pro american BS.

Taiwan's whole force is based on US equipment, no offense to French but they are too eager to hoist a white flag. In general US equipment is top notch just based on the number of sorties they pull (no one even comes close) but here and there French may have a better or more newer product to offer.

 

[Flying Dagger]

Fortunately the sole F16 shooted down in AtoA was due to a Mirage 2000....



Political reason to not purchase US jets ? what reasons? Because India purchase P8I, Attack helo, helo, maybe drones....



France has said afer the sale of 60 x M2000 to Taiwan that we will never supply another fighter because high pressures from China and Airbus purchase from China in the balance. It is called diplomacy.



So stop your average pro american BS.

That wasn't the only F-16 shootout , may be the only one accepted by the other party but does that make Mirage superior to F-16?



So basically French bowed down to the pressure of China. Thanks for confirming that too finally. Today it's Taiwan tomorrow it will be someone else.



We have been at crossroads with USA since 70s in Indo pak wars or Cold war then ban after we declared ourselves a nuke power. Fighter jet deal is much more important and that's what diplomatic relation are for.