Know Your 'Rafale'

[Drsomnath999]

Defense World

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[Flying Dagger]

Taiwan gives us money, we buy planes from France, later give them to Taiwan.. What say?

Dude they aren't that desperate for French jets what they need is USA on their sides and allies.

If we are really interested then mk2 can be offered to them or its follow up.

Another option is to buy their Mirages and get them more F-16s instead.

 

[Rohan Naik]

Dude they aren't that desperate for French jets what they need is USA on their sides and allies.

If we are really interested then mk2 can be offered to them or its follow up.

Another option is to buy their Mirages and get them more F-16s instead.

buying mirages would be a good option. We can strengthen our inventory also. MK2, well I have my apprehension, will it be ready before china captures Taiwan or even before we are reduced to 15 squadron sized air force.

 

[BON PLAN]

@BON PLAN bro Taiwan says f16 comes with amraam which has greter range than mica rf of mk2000
Iaf also operates mk2000 with mica rf....
Does iaf have mica ng....
What's mica ng range ...
It's said that mica has better range than sd10

legacy MICA is a "80km range " missile. This is a marketing data, as @Flying Dagger use and will use for AMRAAM. But these datas are useless if you don't know the speed and altitude of thee plase releasing the missile, the speed, altitude ans aspect of the traget, the pk (is the traget in a straight flight or a 9G on ?)...

Two things are sure : 1) A Taiwanese M2000 fired a drone at 67km using MICA in 1996 or 1997. 2) AMRAAM was produced in successive models, with greater capacity. D > C7 > C5 >A ..... MICA also, but it is not released publicly. So a 2020 MICA > 1996 MICA....

MICA NG will have > 30% more range vs legacy one.

As the product is in dev phase, there is probably no order. Even France has officially not inking a deal.

 

[BON PLAN]

MICA NG is in dev.

Yes AMRAAM has superior range upto double if 120D model is offered to Taiwan.

AMRAAM D double the range of MICA NG ? maybe as used as a rocket, ie not agility in terminal phase (or pk =0,0....)

I think in some days you will say that AMRAAM D match Meteor in range.... it's physically impossible.

 

[omaebakabaka]

Are there real bvr battles in combat conditions between first rate forces and if so what distances vs max range of missile?

 

[BON PLAN]

WVR - Yes it enjoyed superiority for decades due to Russian IR missiles which made IAF employ the same R-73 on Mirage 2k.

But it's not just the helmet but the aircraft itself with high T/w ratio the high thrust engines provide it advantage in wvr against M2k.

R73 is a nice missile. But so specially better than western counterparts. It's the combo of helmets and R73 that was specially deadly.

Mig29 has a very good T/W ratio indeed. But short legs. And it is limited to 7G.... so more a kind of modern Mig21.

 

[Flying Dagger]

AMRAAM D double the range of MICA NG ? maybe as used as a rocket, ie not agility in terminal phase (or pk =0,0....)

I think in some days you will say that AMRAAM D match Meteor in range.... it's physically impossible.

Read again ... It's MICA (80km) vs 120D ( 160-180+)

The altitude etc etc factor applies for both missile in general that's the stats

 

[BON PLAN]

Are there real bvr battles in combat conditions between first rate forces and if so what distances vs max range of missile?

??? I don"t think so.
Only a world top air force against 2nd rank one..... like US against irak.

 

[BON PLAN]

Taiwan gives us money, we buy planes from France, later give them to Taiwan.. What say?

why not. No special diplomatic problem in that direction.

 

[BON PLAN]

Read again ... It's MICA (80km) vs 120D ( 160-180+)

The altitude etc etc factor applies for both missile in general that's the stats

160 - 180 km for AMRAAM D.... they are using the LM propaganda office used for F35 which was due to be supercruising, affordable as a F16, with sensor fusion and.... finally NOT.
The reality is sad.

The altitude etc... factors are never known. So the official stats mean nothing.

 

[omaebakabaka]

??? I don"t think so.
Only a world top air force against 2nd rank one..... like US against irak.

BVR is overrated especially max distances against similar RCS aircraft.....you need a powerful radar and using that puts you at risk. So realistically 20 to 50 km is more practical with Active guided missiles.

 

[omaebakabaka]

??? I don"t think so.
Only a world top air force against 2nd rank one..... like US against irak.

More like 3rd or 4th ranked. US goes with full spectrum AWACS, ECM, Stealth and Cruise missiles....Iraq is not a 2nd rate peer to USAF. They hit the radars first from stand off distances before doing air to air battles. To me USAF, Israel and Russia top the list in terms of tactics followed by India, China e.t.c

 

[Sridhar_TN]

An analysis was made in 1999, when the M2000-5 was ready :
in WVR : F16 is superior in low altitude. The M2000 thank to its high ITR have to win on the very early fight, if not it degrades its energy and loose.
In medium and high altitude, M2000 was superior.

in BVR.... it's unclear. And quite secretive.

Migs are dead platform unless India can secure deep tech partnering on mig 35 improvements. Barring their new interceptor project mig has no prospects in RAF. But India has no choice as far as carrier is concerned. Migs and preferably Tejas should be the only option. Mig 29 is poor man's subaru WRX vs RS4 or M3...decent for price.

You can't compare one on one Rafale to F-15 or F-18, better pilot and strategies will win. Mirages have high availability in India because they are marked as nuke carriers and they are selected for that reason because their servicability is better. US ones come with lot of bs conditions in usage. F-15 with proposed upgrades is very potent and F-18 is pretty evenly matched.

The Pakistanis are extremely wary about the m2000 and it’s mica/magic missiles. Which is why, their F16’s MO is to bug out at the sight of approaching mirages.
So yes. M2000 is superior to F16’s in mid to short range.

 

[omaebakabaka]

The Pakistanis are extremely wary about the m2000 and it’s mica/magic missiles. Which is why, their F16’s MO is to bug out at the sight of approaching mirages.
So yes. M2000 is superior to F16’s in mid to short range.

Its potent but hard to say that as Mirages are not going to dog fight F-16's in IAF strategy. It will be Mig-29's along with MKI as seen in Balakot. Mirages are always protected by these two fighters even though they can stand their own in one on one. F-16's are good planes as they don't lose speed in turns. M2000s/jags were supposed to be nuke carriers but have been used to do a2g missions.

 

[Sridhar_TN]

Its potent but hard to say that as Mirages are not going to dog fight F-16's in IAF strategy. It will be Mig-29's along with MKI as seen in Balakot. Mirages are always protected by these two fighters even though they can stand their own in one on one. F-16's are good planes as they don't lose speed in turns.

The mirages are protected by sukhois if the mirages are assigned for strike role. The configuration of mirage is such that in A2G mode, it needs escort support. Mirages are not a true swing role aircraft where it switches to different modes easily like the F18’s or Rafales.

When it’s in air to air mode, by word, it’s a really agile aircraft thanks to its delta wings. It can take on F16’s day and night. Again, this comes from the PAF’s mouth itself, where they are wary about mirages with their magic/mica missiles.

 

[omaebakabaka]

The mirages are protected by sukhois if the mirages are assigned for strike role. The configuration of mirage is such that in A2G mode, it needs escort support. Mirages are not a true swing role aircraft where it switches to different modes easily like the F18’s or Rafales.

When it’s in air to air mode, by word, it’s a really agile aircraft thanks to its delta wings. It can take on F16’s day and night. Again, this comes from the PAF’s mouth itself, where they are wary about mirages with their magic/mica missiles.

Agreed, their t/w is impressive and it can stand its own but it comes to pilot and overall strategy as F-16 is no slouch either. Don't pakis have BVR AMRAAM's now?

 

[Sridhar_TN]

Agreed, their t/w is impressive and it can stand its own but it comes to pilot and overall strategy as F-16 is no slouch either. Don't pakis have BVR AMRAAM's now?

Yes. They do. No question there, the F16s are no slouch. But their BVR systems can be defeated. And the BVR is not in excess of 100KM like the meteor. The issue with aim120c is it can be jammed quite effectively. Which is why, the usaf is coming with 120d’s.

I was still amazed at the post balakot operation. How they launched nearly half of their F16’s at India to try hitting a single target. It’s just mind blowing trying to think about their thought process. In a way it proved to be counter productive I guess, where even a total of 30 or so aircraft package could not hit any real targets and were bugged out but a stray Su30, and a couple of bisons. As per the IAF reports though, I did read that as soon as they saw mirages approaching their direction, they dumped their payload and bolted.

 

[Tumba]

160 - 180 km for AMRAAM D.... they are using the LM propaganda office used for F35 which was due to be supercruising, affordable as a F16, with sensor fusion and.... finally NOT.
The reality is sad.

The altitude etc... factors are never known. So the official stats mean nothing.

F35 is sad?

wtf is that, so u think World air forces are stupid enough to buy them like hot cakes, around couple of dozens are being manufacture every single month.
F-35 is a gen ahead of Rafale, thr is no chance a Rafale can come head on and thump a 35 specially a US one.
Meteor do gives India some plus against our adversaries but once Aim-260 comes in even latest gen teens will kill Rafale with ease.

 

[Sridhar_TN]

F35 is sad?

wtf is that, so u think World air forces are stupid enough to buy them like hot cakes, around couple of dozens are being manufacture every single month.
F-35 is a gen ahead of Rafale, thr is no chance a Rafale can come head on and thump a 35 specially a US one.
Meteor do gives India some plus against our adversaries but once Aim-260 comes in even latest gen teens will kill Rafale with ease.

Highly doubt that.